Revelation, are you ready?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

There is the "one day battle" or day of the Lord to consider. There is the armies of Gog and MaGog, as well as the 200 million man army that crossed from the Yellow River, and all meet up near Haifa, Israel, in the area known as Merigeddon (sp). These must be considered as part of any logical analysis, because today they are very real entities, and places.

One thought is that East finally meets West in the area of the Middle east. Then a third party joins in to put an end to this horrific fighting which would destroy the world. Hail the size of men, Lucifer thrown down, a lake of molten fire created...very real possibilities (in the literal sense). Scientists have dubbed the planet cracker asteroid that could hit the earth one day as the Lucifer stone. "Hail" could be the accompanying meteorites that would come with such a large asteroid. Even if is was in fact a ball of dirty ice (comet), the devistation that a large enough one could cause on the local atmosphere of impact is not pretty. The Middle East is thick with subsurface oil. Such an impact could infact create a "lake of fire". Certainly there would be no battle, after such an impact, as all would be pulverized.

There is a "crater" in the United states that is over a mile in diameter, and 800 feet deep, and it was caused by a 100 ft diameter (at impact) meteor, traveling at 17,000 to 65,000 mph. Just one small little piece of rock...

In 1906, something exploded over the Siberian forests, that leveled hundreds of miles of trees, wiping villages from existence (and it never made land fall).

Perhaps the "symbology" of Revelations isn't so symbolic...?

v/r

Q

yah. i dont think it is JUST symbolic. there is a lot of real stuff going on in there...as if a WWIII is not possible? i believe it is extremely possible.

some of it is surely symbolic. does not History repeat itself?

naturally John would see horses & not tanks & bomber jets.

like you say...God & Magog. the seven vials of wrath do not just seem symbolic to me. the seven churches of Asia are not just symbolic.
AntiChrist rule of the globe & 7 year tribulation is not just symbolic. The second death is not just symbolic.

There is a place where it says GOD calls the armies of the to battle.

God will avenge those who have taken the blood of the saints.
God is going to have His way.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

The central figure, or leader, of the earth-wide assault against the Messianic Kingdom and its subjects, according to Revelation, is Satan the Devil. He is the only person in the Biblical record who can be said to fulfill adequately the description and role assigned to ‘Gog of Magog’ in the prophecy given to Ezekiel. The prophecy in Ezekiel concerning Gog therefore points to a vicious, earth-wide assault on God’s people, an assault engineered and led by the abased Satan the Devil. This attack is what triggers the complete wiping out of such Satanic forces by means of God’s awesome power.—Eze 38:18-22.

Fine, but how do you dispute the "use" of heavenly bodies to assists in quashing degenerative man, hell bent on annhialating himself and all other life on Earth? Symbolic? Over and over again the scripture states "let he who understands..."

Again, rhetrorical question. Since none of us know the truth about the future.

Some say real, and others say symbolic. Let's continue on shall we...? There is much more to cover in REVELATION

v/r

Q

[Faithfulservant]

Mee who do you consider Gods people? God was pretty clear throughout the bible on who His people were..The gentiles are adopted in but are still not of the tribes of Judah.

Now lets look at this....

Ezekiel 38 1 Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3 and say, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords. 5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; 6 Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the far north and all its troops--many people are with you.

Lets look at who Gog is....

Gen 10 1 Now this is the genealogy of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And sons were born to them after the flood. 2 The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 The sons of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations

Ok so Gog is the son of Japheth... now where would that be located?

Japheth, literally means "opened" or "expanded". Naturally in the sense that his descendents settled all Europe and the greater part of Asia, and later colonised and developed the Western Hemisphere previously ruled by Ham and Canaan, as Shem replaced Canaan in the Promised Land. For obvious reasons, Japheth never expanded to the Far East. And Spiritually through the fulfillment of Genesis 9:27 and Matthew 21:43 wherein Jesus said to Shem, "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation, ("ethnos" or Gentile culture), bringing forth the fruits thereof". That is, a people with the faith of Abraham (Galatians 3:26-29).

From Japheth derive the Indo-Europeans and the Medes. The early Aryans knew Japheth as Djapatischta (chief of the race); Greeks referred to Japheth as Iapetos or Japetos; East Indians called him Iyapeti or Pra-Japati; Romans deified him by the name Ju-Pater or Jupiter. The Saxons perpetuated his name as Iafeth, subsequently transliterated as Sceaf (pronounced sheef or shaif), and recorded in their early genealogies as the son of Noah the forebear of their various peoples (Anglo-Saxon Chronicles). The variant Seskef was used by the early Scandinavians. All of these peoples, we must remember, were pagans whose knowledge or even awareness of the book of Genesis was non-existent.

The Japhetic tribes being furthest from the theocratic centre were last in attaining to historic eminance, and "enlarging" with much greater minuteness to detail the Hamitic and Arabian nations which were soonest developed and with which the Hebrews came most into contact in the initial stages of their journey through time.

History has recorded Japheth's geographical enlargement. The entire Western hemisphere of our globe is settled by Japhetic peoples, and East Indians are of the same stock. The record of Japheth's spread (enlargement) over the earth has been marred consistently by his destruction of the cultures which were already in existence wherever he arrived in sufficient force to achieve dominion. It happened in the Americas, Africa, Asia, Australia, and only numerical superiority of the native population has hitherto preserved parts of Africa from the same fate. Indeed, in early historic times the pattern of events is repeated again and again, whatever cultural advances the pioneering Hamites had achieved tended to be swallowed up by the succeeding Japhethites. The "enlargement" of Japheth has continued to this day, an enlargement greatly accelerated geographically in the last few centuries -- frequently at the expense of the Hamites (or Canaanites) who first possessed the land.

Gomer, literally means "completion" and is the progenitor of the early Cimmerians and other branches of the Celtic family. Settling in eastern Europe near the Black Sea, he became the Gauls/French, Galatians, Gaels/Scots, Celts/Irish, Goths/Germans/Scandinavians, Saxons/Britons/Welsh, Dutch, Armenians, Romans and related groups.

Magog, means "overtopping" or "covering". Settling first in Georgia, a region between the Black and Caspian Seas south of the Caucasus Mountains, he became the Synthians, Russians, Belorussians and Ukranians.

Madai, means "middle land". He settled northwest of Persia proper, south and southwest of the Caspian Sea, east of Armenia and Assyria, and west and northwest of the great salt desert of Iran in the ancient kingdom of Media, now Iraq and the northern part of Iran. He is the father of the Medes and East Indians.

Javan, means "effervescing" or one in a state of bubbling heat". He fathered the Ionians and Greeks. His sons occupy Cyprus, Rhodes, and other islands and coasts of the Mediterranean and the coast of Spain, Italy and Portugal.

Tubal, means, "thou shalt be led". The city of Tobolsk was named after him. He settled near Cappadocia in Asia Minor and fathered the Bulgarians, Hungarians, Albanians, Romanians, other related groups.

Meshech means "led along". The city of Moscow (Muskovi) is named after him. Initially settling in northern Turkey south east of the Caspian Sea, he fathered the Poles, Finns, Czechs, Yugoslavs and other related groups.

Tiras, means "expulsion", "impoverish" or "disinherit". He settled across the Propontis and fathered the Thracians, maritime groups, and possibly the Etruscans of Italy.

Through his sons Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah, Gomer peopled much of Armenia and the Carpathian Mountains.

Ashkenaz, means "a man as sprinkled: fire as scattered". He settled first in Armenia, migrating thence to Bithynia, the northern islands of Europe and European west coast: Germany, Scandinavia and Denmark.

Riphath, means "slander: fault". He settled in Czechslovakia, Romania, and Turkey.

Togarmah, means "thou wilt break her". His earliest descendants settled in Armenia, Turkey and Germany. In the late eighth century BC, Assyria probably uprooted and transported most of those still living in Armenia.

Elishah, means "my God has disregarded". The Greek translation is "Hellas". His descendants settled in Greece.

Tarshish, means "she will cause poverty: she will shatter". He settled Spain.

Kittim, means "beaters-down" or "bruisers". Kittim settled Cyprus, other Mediterranean islands, and Macedonia.

Dodanium, means "leaders". He settled Rhodes and the Dardanelles and was subsequently deified and worshipped as Jupiter Dodonaeus.

You can see the map on this link http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bb000319.htm

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by mee

The central figure, or leader, of the earth-wide assault against the Messianic Kingdom and its subjects, according to Revelation, is Satan the Devil. He is the only person in the Biblical record who can be said to fulfill adequately the description and role assigned to ‘Gog of Magog’ in the prophecy given to Ezekiel. The prophecy in Ezekiel concerning Gog therefore points to a vicious, earth-wide assault on God’s people, an assault engineered and led by the abased Satan the Devil. This attack is what triggers the complete wiping out of such Satanic forces by means of God’s awesome power.—Eze 38:18-22.

Hi mee,

How do JW's view Satan? Is he a fallen angel? Was he created by God but willfully turned away? Does he have any real power, or is he only a corrupter and tempter. When you say the assault will be led by Satan, do you mean he will be embodied, or merely influencing a mortal?

Curious,
lunamoth

[mee]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi mee,

How do JW's view Satan? Is he a fallen angel? Was he created by God but willfully turned away? Does he have any real power, or is he only a corrupter and tempter. When you say the assault will be led by Satan, do you mean he will be embodied, or merely influencing a mortal?

Curious,
lunamoth

The Scriptures indicate that the creature known as Satan did not always have that name. Rather, this descriptive name was given to him because of his taking a course of opposition and resistance to God. The name he had before this is not given. God is the only Creator, and ‘his activity is perfect,’ with no injustice or unrighteousness. (De 32:4) Therefore, the one becoming Satan was, when created, a perfect, righteous creature of God. He is a spirit person, for he appeared in heaven in the presence of God. (Job chaps 1, 2; Re 12:9) Jesus Christ said of him: "That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him." (Joh 8:44; 1Jo 3:8) Jesus here shows that Satan was once in the truth, but forsook it. Beginning with his first overt act in turning Adam and Eve away from God, he was a manslayer, for he thereby brought about the death of Adam and Eve, which, in turn, brought sin and death to their offspring. (Ro 5:12) The bible also tells us that he is the ruler of the world at the momment(1 john 5; 19)

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Fine, but how do you dispute the "use" of heavenly bodies to assists in quashing degenerative man, hell bent on annhialating himself and all other life on Earth? Symbolic? Over and over again the scripture states "let he who understands..."

Again, rhetrorical question. Since none of us know the truth about the future.

Some say real, and others say symbolic. Let's continue on shall we...? There is much more to cover in REVELATION

v/r

Q

Armageddon is described in the last book of the bible as the war of the great day of God almighty (rev 16;14,16)
But it will be far different from a nuclear holocaust! Such a holocaust would likely mean the annihilation of all life on earth. On the contrary, God’s Word gives the happy assurance that only wicked opposers of God will be destroyed—by forces under God’s control. (Psalm 37:9, 10; 145:20) A great crowd of humans, out of all nations, will survive the climax of divine judgment at Armageddon. Christ Jesus will then shepherd and guide these to life everlasting in a paradise earth

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by mee

The Scriptures indicate that the creature known as Satan did not always have that name. Rather, this descriptive name was given to him because of his taking a course of opposition and resistance to God. The name he had before this is not given. God is the only Creator, and ‘his activity is perfect,’ with no injustice or unrighteousness. (De 32:4) Therefore, the one becoming Satan was, when created, a perfect, righteous creature of God. He is a spirit person, for he appeared in heaven in the presence of God. (Job chaps 1, 2; Re 12:9) Jesus Christ said of him: "That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him." (Joh 8:44; 1Jo 3:8) Jesus here shows that Satan was once in the truth, but forsook it. Beginning with his first overt act in turning Adam and Eve away from God, he was a manslayer, for he thereby brought about the death of Adam and Eve, which, in turn, brought sin and death to their offspring. (Ro 5:12) The bible also tells us that he is the ruler of the world at the momment(1 john 5; 19)

i thought his original name is Lucifer. god of this world(earth)

the rest looks good to me.

[didymus]

As far as Lucifer goes, this name didn't come into being until two and a half thousand years after Isaiah wrote of the luminous falling star. Translated into Latin it is Lucifer (light bearer)

Isaiah 14:12-15 How you have fallen from heaven, Omorning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations.

[lunamoth]

Hi All,

I can see my wandering curiosity has derailed the discussion a bit--sorry.

I'll try to stay on topic.

What's next?

lunamoth

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi All,

I can see my wandering curiosity has derailed the discussion a bit--sorry.

I'll try to stay on topic.

What's next?

lunamoth

hee hee, well we could talk about Lucifer. Instead.

pick a chapter. any chapter. we kind of did the first one.

here is the seven churches if anyone wants to do these.

FIRST CHURCH

2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

What is it about this church, that Jesus had something against them?

[mee]

Jesus words to the congregations have had their major application since 1914 the seven congregations picture all the congregations of annointed christians during the Lords day. moreover, during the past 50 years and more , the annointed christians pictured by john , have been joined by large numbers of believers whose hope is to live forever in paradise on earth.Jesus messages to the seven first-century congregations in asia minor are not mere historical curiosities.they mean life or death to each one of us .what jesus is doing is inspecting the congregations. this hour of test arrives only with the dawning of the lords day in 1914.after which, christians were tested as to their loyalty to the established kingdom of God compare matthew 24;3,9-11

A

Time of Testing and Judging

Jesus was baptized and anointed as King-Designate at the Jordan River about October 29 C.E. Three and a half years later, in 33 C.E., he came to Jerusalem’s temple and threw out those who were making it a cave of robbers. There appears to be a parallel to this in the three-and-a-half-year period from Jesus’ ‘sitting down on his glorious throne’ in the heavens in October 1914 until his coming to inspect professed Christians as judgment began with the house of God. (Matthew 21:12, 13; 25:31-33; 1 Peter 4:17) Early in 1918 the Kingdom activity of Jehovah’s people met with great opposition. It was a time of testing earth wide, and fearful ones were sifted out. In May 1918 Christendom’s clergy instigated the imprisonment of officials of the Watch Tower Society, but nine months later these were released. Later, they were completely exonerated of the false charges against them. From 1919 the organization of God’s people, tried and refined, moved zealously forward to proclaim Jehovah’s Kingdom by Christ Jesus as the hope for mankind.—Malachi 3:1-3.

As Jesus began his inspection in 1918, the clergy of Christendom no doubt received an adverse judgment. Not only had they raised up persecution against God’s people but they had also incurred heavy bloodguilt by supporting the contending nations during the first world war. (Revelation 18:21, 24) Those clergymen then placed their hope in the man-made League of Nations. Along with the entire world empire of false religion, Christendom had fallen completely from God’s favor by 1919

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by mee

Jesus words to the congregations have had their major application since 1914 the seven congregations picture all the congregations of annointed christians during the Lords day. moreover, during the past 50 years and more , the annointed christians pictured by john , have been joined by large numbers of believers whose hope is to live forever in paradise on earth.Jesus messages to the seven first-century congregations in asia minor are not mere historical curiosities.they mean life or death to each one of us .what jesus is doing is inspecting the congregations. this hour of test arrives only with the dawning of the lords day in 1914.after which, christians were tested as to their loyalty to the established kingdom of God compare matthew 24;3,9-11

A

Time of Testing and Judging

Jesus was baptized and anointed as King-Designate at the Jordan River about October 29 C.E. Three and a half years later, in 33 C.E., he came to Jerusalem’s temple and threw out those who were making it a cave of robbers. There appears to be a parallel to this in the three-and-a-half-year period from Jesus’ ‘sitting down on his glorious throne’ in the heavens in October 1914 until his coming to inspect professed Christians as judgment began with the house of God. (Matthew 21:12, 13; 25:31-33; 1 Peter 4:17) Early in 1918 the Kingdom activity of Jehovah’s people met with great opposition. It was a time of testing earth wide, and fearful ones were sifted out. In May 1918 Christendom’s clergy instigated the imprisonment of officials of the Watch Tower Society, but nine months later these were released. Later, they were completely exonerated of the false charges against them. From 1919 the organization of God’s people, tried and refined, moved zealously forward to proclaim Jehovah’s Kingdom by Christ Jesus as the hope for mankind.—Malachi 3:1-3.

As Jesus began his inspection in 1918, the clergy of Christendom no doubt received an adverse judgment. Not only had they raised up persecution against God’s people but they had also incurred heavy bloodguilt by supporting the contending nations during the first world war. (Revelation 18:21, 24) Those clergymen then placed their hope in the man-made League of Nations. Along with the entire world empire of false religion, Christendom had fallen completely from God’s favor by 1919

i dont know where you are getting these dates & inspections from 1914, 1918 & 1919, but there is nothing that shows these specific dates in the book of Revelations & how you come up with Christendom falling completely because that is when I see a rise in Christianity.
I do not believe Revelations 18 has come to pass yet...the voice of the bride & bridegroom is still here on earth.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i dont know where you are getting these dates & inspections from 1914, 1918 & 1919, but there is nothing that shows these specific dates in the book of Revelations & how you come up with Christendom falling completely because that is when I see a rise in Christianity.
I do not believe Revelations 18 has come to pass yet...the voice of the bride & bridegroom is still here on earth.

Why

do Jehovah’s Witnesses say that God’s Kingdom was established in 1914?

Two

lines of evidence point to that year: (1) Bible chronology and (2) the events since 1914 in fulfillment of prophecy. Here we will consider the chronology.

Read

Daniel 4:1-17. Verses 20-37 show that this prophecy had a fulfillment upon Nebuchadnezzar. But it also has a larger fulfillment. How do we know that? Verses 3 and 17 show that the dream that God gave to King Nebuchadnezzar deals with the Kingdom of God and God’s promise to give it "to the one whom he wants to . . . even the lowliest one of mankind." The entire Bible shows that Jehovah’s purpose is for his own Son, Jesus Christ, to rule as His representative over mankind. (Ps. 2:1-8; Dan. 7:13, 14; 1 Cor. 15:23-25; Rev. 11:15; 12:10) The Bible’s description of Jesus shows that he was indeed "the lowliest one of mankind." (Phil. 2:7, 8; Matt. 11:28-30) The prophetic dream, then, points to the time when Jehovah would give rulership over mankind to his own Son.

What

was to happen in the meantime? Rulership over mankind, as represented by the tree and its rootstock, would have "the heart of a beast." (Dan. 4:16) The history of mankind would be dominated by governments that displayed the characteristics of wild beasts. In modern times, the bear is commonly used to represent Russia; the eagle, the United States; the lion, Britain; the dragon, China. The Bible also uses wild beasts as symbols of world governments and of the entire global system of human rulership under the influence of Satan. (Dan. 7:2-8, 17, 23; 8:20-22; Rev. 13:1, 2) As Jesus showed in his prophecy pointing to the conclusion of the system of things, Jerusalem would be "trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations" were fulfilled. (Luke 21:24) "Jerusalem" represented the Kingdom of God because its kings were said to sit on "the throne of the kingship of Jehovah." (1 Chron. 28:4, 5; Matt. 5:34, 35) So, the Gentile governments, represented by wild beasts, would ‘trample’ on the right of God’s Kingdom to direct human affairs and would themselves hold sway under Satan’s control.—Compare Luke 4:5, 6.

For

how long would such governments be permitted to exercise this control before Jehovah gave the Kingdom to Jesus Christ? Daniel 4:16 says "seven times" ("seven years," AT and Mo, also JB footnote on verse 13). The Bible shows that in calculating prophetic time, a day is counted as a year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34) How many "days," then, are involved? Revelation 11:2, 3 clearly states that 42 months (3 1/2 years) in that prophecy are counted as 1,260 days. Seven years would be twice that, or 2,520 days. Applying the "day for a year" rule would result in 2,520 years.

When

did the counting of the "seven times" begin? After Zedekiah, the last king in the typical Kingdom of God, was removed from the throne in Jerusalem by the Babylonians. (Ezek. 21:25-27) Finally, by early October of 607 B.C.E. the last vestige of Jewish sovereignty was gone. By that time the Jewish governor, Gedaliah, who had been left in charge by the Babylonians, had been assassinated, and the remaining Jews had fled to Egypt. (Jeremiah, chapters 40-43) Reliable Bible chronology indicates that this took place 70 years before 537 B.C.E., the year in which the Jews returned from captivity; that is, it took place by early October of 607 B.C.E. (Jer. 29:10; Dan. 9:2;

How,

then, is the time calculated down to 1914? Counting 2,520 years from early October of 607 B.C.E. brings us to early October of 1914 C.E., as shown on the chart.

CALCULATING

THE "SEVEN TIMES"

"Seven times" = 7 X 360 = 2,520 years

A Biblical "time," or year = 12 X 30 days = 360. (Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14)

In the fulfillment of the "seven times" each day equals one year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34)

Early October, 607 B.C.E., to December 31, 607 B.C.E.= 1/4 year

January 1, 606 B.C.E., to December 31, 1 B.C.E. = 606 years

January 1, 1 C.E., to December 31, 1913 = 1,913 years

January 1, 1914, to early October, 1914 = 3/4 year

Total: 2,520 years

What happened at that time? Jehovah entrusted rulership over mankind to his own Son, Jesus Christ, glorified in the heavens.—Dan. 7:13, 14

[mee]

Oh , sorry about the spaces ,i did , i must admit paste the last post , it was a bit deep into prophecy for me to get it right ,so i pasted and i am rubbish on computors.ok ,now you all know i am thick

[Bandit]

from what i can see, Jesus has been on the throne since he ascended into heaven & the kingdom has been, being established since then. Not starting in 1914.