Revelation, are you ready?

[tommy]

Thanks Quahom!, I went ahead and worked on this the last few days after checking with you and I hope my thoughts here are presented appropriately and not insulting to anybody. Revelations, the climax, my how slow us humans are to learn. These are entirely my opinions (I did not read the posts here under “Revelations…are your ready” because I did not want to read anything that would alter my thoughts and will read them after making this post). I was not going to originally put my post up here, but with some encouragement and answers from another more senior member here in how to go about doing so and remaining on a positive theme, I decided to go ahead and do it anyway and am hopeful with these comments I won’t loose my privilege of being able to post here, because you folks here have human compassion and I am still seeking how to fully follow the religion Jesus would want me to follow, which I think is Christianity that stays away from nation (war), leaders who can misdirect their members because they are men, idols which is somewhat a confusing topic.
Here are a few dangers of following religion first rather then God in my opinion. We don’t always know what a doctrine or a council could put in place (i.e. Trinity) and that is why I think trust in the Bible and not a specific religion is important. I remember as a child in Catholic school having to say Father forgive me for I have sin and then I had to go kneel down and repeat about 10 Hail Mary’s and Our Father prayers. What does the Bible say about repeating prayers over and over (Rosary) as opposed to using the Lord’s Prayer through Jesus and then just talking to Him and continually using the word you rather then me? Religion in my opinion can confuse some with awkward beliefs for example, Is Mother Mary, the “Mother of God” or the Mother of Jesus? Does God have a Mother? I thought he is the Alpha and the Omega, which has no beginning or end. Some religions believe that Mary, the virgin Mother of Jesus remained a virgin her entire life. That is not true, because the Bible states that Jesus had several half Brothers and Sisters and he was the oldest in the family. We see this in the book of James and Jude and learn of half brothers who could not have come from a virgin and then Joseph would have not really been a normal person not wanting to have intercourse with his wife. I would imagine Mary was very beautiful since Jesus was perfect. Joseph seemed real normal to me with earthly desires and his seed came from the line of David, Noah and Adam. First we had Adam who did not obey his Father. Then, the Israelites, were praising a Golden Calf when Moses came down off Mt.Zion with all the laws, made out jealous God angry. Then the Israelites were given a glorious King, the Almighty One, Yahweh, what a wonderful name. But no, they wanted their own King. I kind of feel a little sorry for the Israelites , they are always moving, geographically that is, even today there is talk of moving out again this summer (Gaza strip). Here is where I think the human race went wrong and why we are now standing on the crest of the great tribulation. God wanted one thing from us, since he created us, our sincere love and devotion and devotion is the key word here. This topic of Revelations is a serious topic and I do apologize for any lack of love and human kindness that may not follow Jesus’’ main theme of how we all get along in this world. We for the most part are devoted to our nation, leaders or a religion and we do need nation for a variety of reasons (police protection ect.) and religion to study as a group, but probably need leaders because we live in a nation, However, we have a supreme leader, God To find the key to Revelations we must realize that much of it is symbolism as it tells us that in the first chapter. Now since Revelations mentions Michael, is there any chance that this chapter refers to symbolism and a name that is only mentioned a handful of times (Micheal)might refer to Jesus in this chapter? Here is the definition of Michael, the name, “Who is like God”, that’s what the name means. This is important because it is my opinion that the Mighty Jesus would get the satisfaction and liberty of hurling the evil satan devil from Heaven. Michael, the Archangel comes up in Revelation 12:7 that uses symbolism and refers to Jesus in several different references (Lamp of God ect.) in addition to his name. Daniel Chapter 12:1 ties to the OT reference to Michael (the Archangel) as the “Great Prince” and some religions will not recognize the symbolism that Jesus (“Prince of Princes” how Catholics refer to Jesus in song) is actually Michael. Revelation 18:2-3, unfortunately refers to the mass of false religion that will fall prior to the end of the system of things including the group who committed fornication (priest molestation, sorry bringing this one up) in the last days and the scandal which has cost a billion dollars in defending itself and by all means please realize these are just my opinions on what I have researched and read and I do not want to insult anyone following the Big religion as my parents, brothers, sisters and many friends do and I did personally for 40 years. Revelations is a hard Book of the Bible and we need to learn in my opinion what is the 10 horns and what they represent. We also need to learn what is meant by the beast, the wild beast and Babylon the Great. God wanted praise to him and he even said to Moses more or less, hey, here is my name and you can tell them who I am when they ask. Then I started debating this issue on other forums about a month ago. I learned that the various translations of the Bible are very important as I started quoting the 1901 ASV Bible and learned that most faiths, including Catholic, Jewish (OT only because it uses Yahweh’s name and is very similar to their three books) and Christians felt pretty OK with the 1990 New Jerusalem Bible, so I will quote from here since there is some common ground. Isaiah 42:8 says, “I am Yahweh, this is my name”! I shall not yield my glory to another, nor my honour to idols”. Now idols are tricky, a whole separate topic, but I cannot figure out why when I see a bumper sticker with an image of the devil and you look real hard why you also see the cross. Is the devil using this as his trophy or is this extreme sarcasm? I don’t know. I also don’t know why sometimes idols move and reappear. Some may know what I mean here, some may not. I am a little embarrassed about what I have experienced in these regards and may be willing to go into a little more detail about what I mean here later if there is interest but want to spend the rest of this time speaking about Revelation, are you ready. Rev. 17:7-8 speaks of Babylon the Great, the prophecy of Rome, which has not yet occurred. Jeremiah Chapter 51:49 in the OT refers to Babylon as the ones responsible for the Israelites being “slaughtered” which could be symbolic what group (this might not mean all the individual members) will fall under Babylon the Great since the Bible uses symbolism and the OT and NT ties together. At first I thought that perhaps the Big religion was all wrong. But as I started debating these issues on other web-sites I learned that many Catholics are loaded with Bible knowledge, so how could all these members be all wrong? I don’t think that Babylon the Great is just 100% Catholic Religion, but the whole mass of false religion that has been led astray by politica/churchl leaders, nation, idols and anything else that is not 100% complete devotion to God through Jesus. That covers quite a bit and maybe in the future it is not the practicing members that fall who go on the correct path once all the scandals focused around sexual behavior, greed and money unfold leaving an empty church to go to, which I do not truly know the case either. I went on the search engine and typed in holocaust, Catholic religion and WWII because it has often been said that the Catholic Religion is the whore of Babylon the Great and a book came up below you can read, its free. Then I learned this, During WWII, pope Pius VII, remained silent during the killing of the Jews and God has instructed through Moses that “Thou shall not kill”. It was the ordinary Catholics that helped hide the Jews out of compassion for their fellow man and the pope, a human leader, turned his back to the biggest crime ever committed. However, millions were killed and only thousands were saved. Read this free book (however, I will put a warning label that if you do not want to read about some troubles the church had from 1938-1945, you might not want to open it) written by Michael Phayer about how the Vatican was silent about the killings of the Jews and how Pope Pius VII turned his back on the following web-site: http://iupress.indiana.edu/textnet/0-253-33725-9/0253108349.htm Rev 17:3-7 discusses the Beast (false religion) in Scarlet Red which could represent in my personal opinion, the blood of the millions killed when “nation went against nation” in WWII by those who were responsible and/or supported it. In Fascist Italy, on February 11, 1929, the Lateran Treaty was signed by Mussolini making Vatican City a sovereign state. Pope Pius XI claimed that he had “given Italy back to God, and God back to Italy”. Then six years later in October of 1935 Italy invades Abyssinia, claiming that is was “a barbarous land which still practices slavery” which was not condemned by the Vatican. We see last month on Showtime “our Fathers” and about Cardinal Bernard Law ending up getting a promotion after all of the cover up in the priest sex scandal. This also has happened at other religions like the Protestants. The Smith’s Bible Dictionary published in the early 1900’s says “Babylon (or Rome) in another form, the Papal despotism, a compound of Paganism and Christianity”. OK, then what defines paganism? Who is St. Patrick and St. Valentine and why don’t we read their names in the Bible? Is prayer directed to Saints paganism and do they get heard since it is not directed through Jesus to the Almighty One? As always, I do not know the answers, but am putting these issues up to share my thoughts in what I read in the Bible for purposes of debate and please be discerning about some of these sensitive topics that could be off and in some regards should be off, as like most of you I am a Bible student, that’s all. What are the ten horns referring to in Revelations? “Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where woman sits on top. And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while”. Revelations 17:9,10. Both terms are used scripturally to refer to governmental powers (Jeremiah 51: 24, 25: Daniel 2:34, 35, 44, 45).Six world powers are mentioned as having an impact on the affairs of God’s people: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon,, Medo-Persia, Greece. Of these, five had already come and gone by the time John received Revelation, whereas Rome was still very much a world power. This corresponds well with “five have fallen, one is”. But what of the “other” that was due to come? By the 19th century the Anglo-American world power was added. An angel explained to John, And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also itself an eight king, but springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction Rev 17:11. How do we know that beasts are governments? Certain world powers of history appear directly in the Bible record as nations. Egypt, the serpent and also the bull, as well as Assyria usingthe bull. Medo-Persia used the Eagle. Athens used the Owl. Rome, the Eagle. In addition, Great Britain is designated by the Lion. The U.S., the Eagle. From the most remote times China has symbolized by the dragon and Russia the Bear. The symbolic scarlet-colored wild beast “springs from” the seven heads; that is, it is born from, or owes its existence to, those heads of the original “wild beast”…out of the sea”, of which the scarlet-colored wild beast is an image. What does this all mean? Well the Anglo-American power was the ascended head. The previous six heads had fallen and the position of the dominant world power had passed to this dual head and was now centered in it. This seventh head,as the current representative of the line of world powers, was the moving force in establishing the League of Nations and is still the major promoter and financial support of the UNITED NATIONS. Therefore, in symbol, the scarlet color wild beast, the eighth king “springs” from the original seven heads. Looked at like this, the statement that is sprang from the seven harmonizes well with the earlier revelation that the wild beast with two horns like a lamb (the Anglo-American World Power, the seventh head of that original wild beast) urged the making of the image and gave it life Rev. 13:1, 11, 14, 15. Therefore, the United Nations is also itself designed to look like a world government. At times it has acted like one sending people to war. As John soon learns, the time will come when the UN will act with considerable authority and call a war that “goes off into destruction”. (see part II, it won't all fit here) blessings, tommy

[tommy]

(Part II) Is this God’s war at Armageddon and that Babylon the Great will only be remembered at that time rev. 16:1, 14, 19. “And the ten horns that you saw mean ten kings, who have not yet received authority as kings one hour with the wild beast. These will battle with the Lamp, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of Kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also those called and chosen and faithful with him will do so”. Rev. 17:12-14. The ten horns are all political powers that presently hold sway on the world scene and that support the image of the wild beast (United Nations). The irony here is that it was the League of Nations and the United Nations organization that was supposed to preserve world peace. God has purposed that His Kingdom under Jesus Christ will shortly replace all these kingdoms Daniel 7:13, 14, Matthew 24:30 25: 31-33, 46. Of course there is nothing the rulers of this world can do against Jesus Christ himself. He is in heaven. However, soon the time sill come for God’s Kingdom to “crush and put an end to all these kingdoms Daniel 2:44. Now we know the nations will not succeed against Jesus. Certainly the immense material wealth of Babylon the Great will not save her. The vision shows that when the wild beast (nation) and the ten horns vent their hatred on her they will strip off her royal robes and all her jewelry. They will plunder her wealth, make her naked, shamefully expose her real character. The one billion in priest molestation suits by all religions, not just the big one, could be some of these first pangs. The UN will give sanction to the destruction of false religion. So in the end, the wide spread doubt may empty the church leaving the religion dead and perhaps not the members who then follow true Christianity, Jesus’ teachings and they don’t follow doctrines, praise church leaders, and give up the belief that when you are dying in war you are dying for God. Not true, in war we die for a nation and not God. Yes, the nations will use the scarlet-colored wild beast, the United Nations, in destroying Babylon the Great. Thus, the ancient harlot will come to her complete end. “and the women whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth” Rev. 17:18. This is the mystery of the great harlot and the scarlet colored beast. John Lennon said in Revolution "talk about distruction, you can count me out, in". I heard in an interview with Lennon that he wasn't sure either on the topic of destruction, especially if someone is attacking you, what we should do. Jesus said it is better to loose and eye or a hand, then loosing your sould and the chance of everlasting life. I also do not believe the whole world will be destroyed, just satan driven out of it and locke-up in the abyss. Sorry such a long post, but a heavy duty project going through this stuff on Revelations. Blessings and hope of salvation to all!!!, tommy

[mee]

well now tommy ,that sure sounds familiar

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

well now tommy ,that sure sounds familiar

That's why I suggested it be posted here, so we could have comparison of thoughts on this issue...

My light bulb does flicker on from time to time...

v/r

Q

[mee]

Revelation depicts "a scarlet-colored wild beast" that exists for a time, disappears, and then returns. (Revelation 17:3, 8) This beast is supported by world rulers. Details supplied in the prophecy help us to identify this symbolic beast as a peace organization that came into existence in 1919 as the League of Nations (a "disgusting thing") (matthew 24;15)and that is now the United Nations. Revelation 17:16, 17 shows that God will yet put it into the hearts of certain human rulers who are prominent in this "beast" to desolate the world empire of false religion. That attack marks the outbreak of the great tribulation

[tommy]

6-15-2005, 02:06 PM
Quahom1 vbmenu_register("postmenu_34093", true);
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Join Date: Dec 2003
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Re: Wedding at Canna, Jesus' first miracle...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy
Quahom1, OK, lets be honest, I am trying to read between your lines so here is your quote I was referring to. There is nothing worse than an ex cigarette smoker, a recovering alcoholic, or a former believer in one form of faith, implying to others that they are wrong. The log in one's eye is much larger than the speck in another's...

I knew I ran that risk in posting Revelations yesterday and when you mentioned you had pretty thick skin and also said you might have some questions as well and encouraged me to post it. I went ahead and put hours putting it together for purposes of debate. Lets be real honest, did you find my thread I posted yesterday on Revelation, are you Ready, disturbing? I find all of those topics disturbing in Revelations other then the eventual Kindom of Jesus at the end in Rev 20 and really want to be proved wrong because I too am not sure if the comments are all right as I have not converted so far to anything new officially as a Bible Student and thats why I am poking around on a comparative site. Wherever and whomever I have discussed those issues, the main theme seems to be, don't try and convince people their wrong rather then a discussion of the issues and the questions brought up. So I peacefully welcome going back to that post on Revelations and having a true debate and discussion on the issues raised if that is the inspiration from the above quote. tommy


Actually, I found your post fascinating (on the Revalations Thread). In fact I'm still looking at it. It has given me much to reflect upon.

v/r

Here is my last one before I go, Constable, these are Jehovah Witnesses views Constable you find "fascinating"

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by tommy

...Here is my last one before I go, Constable, these are Jehovah Witnesses views Constable you find "fascinating"

Exactly.

[mee]

And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: ‘The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.’" (Revelation 11:15) Those angelic hosts have reason to speak loudly, even in thunderous tones! For this historic announcement is of universal importance. It is of vital concern to all living creation
Ever since the defection of our first parents, the entire inhabited earth has been under the domination of "the original serpent," Satan. (Revelation 12:9; Luke 4:6) It is time, now, for a dramatic change! To vindicate his rightful position, Jehovah begins to exercise his sovereignty over the earth in a new way, through his designated Messianic Kingdom. with Jesus as its king. and when did this happen ? 1914.... the heavenly kingdom was born and Jesus was the rightful king........... its all happening

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: ‘The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.’" (Revelation 11:15) Those angelic hosts have reason to speak loudly, even in thunderous tones! For this historic announcement is of universal importance. It is of vital concern to all living creation
Ever since the defection of our first parents, the entire inhabited earth has been under the domination of "the original serpent," Satan. (Revelation 12:9; Luke 4:6) It is time, now, for a dramatic change! To vindicate his rightful position, Jehovah begins to exercise his sovereignty over the earth in a new way, through his designated Messianic Kingdom. with Jesus as its king. and when did this happen ? 1914.... the heavenly kingdom was born and Jesus was the rightful king........... its all happening

Well, I don't think "defection" is the correct term. They erred and as a result lost touch with God. And I'm not going to touch 1914, ever again...

What happened is that man caused God to lose confidence in his fidelity. And the only way for God to regain the confidence in man's fidelity, was to let man work his way back. (Trust, once lost is extremely difficult to regain...though not impossible. But it takes a long time). Which means, each of us born, are born with that innate knowledge.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Well, I don't think "defection" is the correct term. They erred and as a result lost touch with God. And I'm not going to touch 1914, ever again...

What happened is that man caused God to lose confidence in his fidelity. And the only way for God to regain the confidence in man's fidelity, was to let man work his way back. (Trust, once lost is extremely difficult to regain...though not impossible. But it takes a long time). Which means, each of us born, are born with that innate knowledge.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

the fullfillment of bible prophecy in 1914 is about something that will effect all of us , so as a christian, we should be very interested in 1914 and what is happening right now in conection with it . ignoring Gods purpose for this earth will get us no where. that is why i like to learn more and more about the heavenly kingdom , and what it will acomplish for this earth. and its all being revealed in the book of revelation. what a thrilling book it is,

[truthseeker]

Fascinating.

Tommy, I really enjoyed your post. I mean, really.

But, I wonder...

Of course this is prophecy in the book of the Revelation. The wars that are occuring, the invasion on Iraq - which is what we are dealing with right now - though there is a political smokescreen I happen to believe that all this is the business of the prophecy. So, do the 'powers that be' know what they are doing or do they feel a duty in manifesting the prophecy?

I know that this question is probably for another board but I thought I'd still just throw it out there. I happen to live believing that everything we do is of the nature of man defined in the bible, and that we are moving steadfast toward fulfilling the prophecy. But is the anti-christ aware of what he is doing and that the story has been told? Or is the anti-christ just following directions from that which has been stated in the prophecy? Or is all of this pre-destined and it is the body of Christ for which the prophecy is for-warning?

[mee]

I thing Jehovah God can manouver things to accomplish HIS purpose and he uses whom ever he wants ,to do that, even though they may be unaware of it. they think they are doing their thoughts, but Jehovah can use them to accomplish his will . even mighty nations who think they are the greatest , Jehovah can use a dishonerable thing to fullfill his purpose, such as ...... the destruction of Baylon the great.......For God put [it] into their hearts to carry out his thought, even to carry out [their] one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished. revelation 17;17 but this does not mean that these political powers will turn to Jehovah and worship him
This violent antireligious action on the part of the political powers does not mean that they will thereafter turn to the worship of Jehovah God. Their fierce anti-Babylon action does not mean that they will now become the friends of God. Otherwise they would not take the later action that the book of Revelation shows that they will take. (Revelation 17:12-14) They may rejoice immensely at the antireligious exploits that Jehovah God has permitted them to accomplish, but they will still continue to be misled by "the god of this system of things," Satan the Devil, the all-out, relentless opposer of Jehovah God.—2 Corinthians 4:4.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Fascinating.

Tommy, I really enjoyed your post. I mean, really.

But, I wonder...

Of course this is prophecy in the book of the Revelation. The wars that are occuring, the invasion on Iraq - which is what we are dealing with right now - though there is a political smokescreen I happen to believe that all this is the business of the prophecy. So, do the 'powers that be' know what they are doing or do they feel a duty in manifesting the prophecy?

I know that this question is probably for another board but I thought I'd still just throw it out there. I happen to live believing that everything we do is of the nature of man defined in the bible, and that we are moving steadfast toward fulfilling the prophecy. But is the anti-christ aware of what he is doing and that the story has been told? Or is the anti-christ just following directions from that which has been stated in the prophecy? Or is all of this pre-destined and it is the body of Christ for which the prophecy is for-warning?

i hear you truthseeker . i think some anti christ know exactly what they are doing & some have been decieved & are not aware they are fulfilliing prophecy. i just did a huge study on this with some others. i dont think anyone forces prophecy, it is more of a slow building orchestra with crescendo through mans actions as they all fall into place over time.
same goes for those who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. the Church is going to see these things because the Church is attached to Jesus our head & Chief commander.
it is fascinating.

[Quahom1]

Instead of being cynical, I would consider hearing what others are saying, feeling, thinking.

Every "lie" (subjective), has a kernel of "truth" to float it...

v/r

Q

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by mee

I thing Jehovah God can manouver things to accomplish HIS purpose and he uses whom ever he wants ,to do that, even though they may be unaware of it. they think they are doing their thoughts, but Jehovah can use them to accomplish his will . even mighty nations who think they are the greatest , Jehovah can use a dishonerable thing to fullfill his purpose, such as ...... the destruction of Baylon the great.......For God put [it] into their hearts to carry out his thought, even to carry out [their] one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished. revelation 17;17 but this does not mean that these political powers will turn to Jehovah and worship him
This violent antireligious action on the part of the political powers does not mean that they will thereafter turn to the worship of Jehovah God. Their fierce anti-Babylon action does not mean that they will now become the friends of God. Otherwise they would not take the later action that the book of Revelation shows that they will take. (Revelation 17:12-14) They may rejoice immensely at the antireligious exploits that Jehovah God has permitted them to accomplish, but they will still continue to be misled by "the god of this system of things," Satan the Devil, the all-out, relentless opposer of Jehovah God.—2 Corinthians 4:4.

hey mee, i think we are on the same page here. i would like to hear what you are seeing in the latter part of chapter 18, especially verses 23 & 24.

also, earlier in the book are you seeing the seals & trumpets without wrath, except for some wrath in the trumpets? & them come the bowls that are filled with wrath...or what are you seeing with that?