Return of the mosiach and the regathering - Page 2

lunamoth · 09-15-2005, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bananabrain

lunamoth - if you did understand it, you'd be at least as fed up as i am with the state of my religion. what a bunch of daft beardy-weirdies they can be - or, indeed, what a bunch of smug, self-satisfied, suburban, 4x4-driving curtain twitchers too scared of the world to explore it. gah.

on the other hand, you have to love 'em - or at least i do. that's mishpacha (family) for you.

b'shalom

bananabrain

haha! It is like family, isn't it. I think every religion has it's daffy and frustrating, weird, and downright annoying sides. Yes, gotta love 'em (and hope they'll put up with me in return!)

lunamoth

Bandit · 09-15-2005, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

haha! It is like family, isn't it. I think every religion has it's daffy and frustrating, weird, and downright annoying sides. Yes, gotta love 'em (and hope they'll put up with me in return!)

lunamoth

i hear that. it is like everyone in there favorite rocking chair, rocking so hard til it falls over.
i think, "how can they believe that way" & they are going "how can Bandit believe that way"
I know some of my beliefs sound koo koo, because i have heard some koo koo ones too.
you say to yourself, "How in the world does THAT fit with this?"

but when we can laugh about it & still love each other, then it is a family. the family of koo koo beliefs.

dauer · 09-15-2005, 08:36 PM

I don't think the nistar makes the Hebrew essential, because we can chose what nistar to emphasize, or what new nistar to birth. So from a Renewal perspective I would see the progression through the different parts of the service as a movement through the four worlds, and I might do some kavvanot around that too. In reality, I don't think i could live with only English. But I couldn't live with only Hebrew either. One has all of the cultural baggage I love, and the other is the language I speak with. Like what Nachman was getting at with his form of hitbodedut, he knew the language of the common man was important, talking to God in the language of birth.

I think that my complaints about certain factions in Judaism would for the most part be the same as yours, although you'd probably complain about my people too. A word used in Renewal is Davenology, which refers to the science of davenning, something sorely lacking in many many shuls. Too many rabbis are trained not for spiritual work.

Dauer

bananabrain · 09-29-2005, 10:22 AM

ok, of course we have an option to work with, or create various types of nistar. what i am saying is that i believe nistar is intimately bound up with the possibilities of the hebrew language and, more or less, 'twas ever thus.

there's also something about the role of aramaic - the vernacular of its time. of course there's aramaic in the service, kaddish for example, which would lead us to conclude that it is of course permissible to speak to the Divine in our own languages; this is why the passover seder is generally done in english in even the frummer circles that i inhabit. the "cultural baggage" of english is all very well, but it can have unwanted effects; the best example of this is what is known as the "seder night snigger" when we refer to egypt as the "house of bondage". deary me.

on the other hand, the zohar is in aramaic, which would tend to indicate that it's a suitable language for nistar, as indeed the inclusion of "berich shemeh" in the Torah service would indicate. for me, this would indicate a rootedness in a set time-period for certain purposes.

i think we agree about davenology, althought the name makes me cringe. if anything, my own personal "renewal" has been entirely enabled by more or less self-taught davenology, as well as nistar; the accent and so on being crucial to this, which is why i insist upon it. everything else is driven off that.

b'shalom

bananabrain

dauer · 09-29-2005, 01:29 PM

My feeling about using English is that there should be some conciousness about the most essential and transcendent Hebrew terminology, and that this should be introduced into any English study or prayer in order to create a sort of Judeo-English. I would also include some yiddish, but that's the ashkenazi in me. I think including yiddish is more cultural. But I think in order to keep the concepts clean a Judeo-English is essential. Most people don't know what qorban means, or issur, or kedusha, or tamei, or even Tanach, or chiddush, or halachah, or even baruch, or even what the Tetragrammaton is all about. If we can't get people to learn Hebrew, my feeling is we can get them to learn a few words that are on their own very engaging, each having its own story. And then when they speak and davven the vernacular, they don't lose so much, unless of course you're going by the mystical understandings of the importance of the Hebrew language.

I do indeed make the assumptions about Aramaic in services and the only reasons I think it shouldn't be translated into English in services are because every child knows it, it carries a certain power to it because of the associations we make with it, the actual translation would bother some people during the mourner's, and it exposes people to aramaic.

The only reason I like the word davenology is because it's "so bad it's good." It's like those cheesy "B" sci-fi movies that are just awful, but they're really good because of it, like a good Vincent Price film. It sounds like something I'd learn in a study hall, but nobody learns davenology in a study hall. It's learned in action.

Dauer

WesleyWes · 10-27-2005, 01:24 AM

I agree with saddusaic belief that there isnt one. The pharisees believed in a natural one. The Essenes a super-natural one. Now looked at as a messianic era. I see it all as wishful thinking. Torah some say, does not mention a messianic figure.

Peace!

pohaikawahine · 10-31-2005, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WesleyWes

I agree with saddusaic belief that there isnt one. The pharisees believed in a natural one. The Essenes a super-natural one. Now looked at as a messianic era. I see it all as wishful thinking. Torah some say, does not mention a messianic figure.

Peace!

auwe WesleyWes .... thank you for sharing your thoughts on this subject .... I think there will be many because it, in my view,is an internal process not an external one .... the one we wait for is ourselves .... just my two cents ....I can't wait to find out one way or the other .... if by chance there is none, the world is still a pretty beautiful place and I'm happy to be here .... aloha nui, poh

09-15-2005, 08:36 PM	#18 (permalink)
dauer Super Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Near Boston Posts: 1,907	Re: Return of the mosiach and the regathering I don't think the nistar makes the Hebrew essential, because we can chose what nistar to emphasize, or what new nistar to birth. So from a Renewal perspective I would see the progression through the different parts of the service as a movement through the four worlds, and I might do some kavvanot around that too. In reality, I don't think i could live with only English. But I couldn't live with only Hebrew either. One has all of the cultural baggage I love, and the other is the language I speak with. Like what Nachman was getting at with his form of hitbodedut, he knew the language of the common man was important, talking to God in the language of birth. I think that my complaints about certain factions in Judaism would for the most part be the same as yours, although you'd probably complain about my people too. A word used in Renewal is Davenology, which refers to the science of davenning, something sorely lacking in many many shuls. Too many rabbis are trained not for spiritual work. Dauer

09-29-2005, 10:22 AM	#19 (permalink)
bananabrain Super Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: London, UK, Malkhut she'be'Assiyah Posts: 1,444	Re: Return of the mosiach and the regathering ok, of course we have an option to work with, or create various types of nistar. what i am saying is that i believe nistar is intimately bound up with the possibilities of the hebrew language and, more or less, 'twas ever thus. there's also something about the role of aramaic - the vernacular of its time. of course there's aramaic in the service, kaddish for example, which would lead us to conclude that it is of course permissible to speak to the Divine in our own languages; this is why the passover seder is generally done in english in even the frummer circles that i inhabit. the "cultural baggage" of english is all very well, but it can have unwanted effects; the best example of this is what is known as the "seder night snigger" when we refer to egypt as the "house of bondage". deary me. on the other hand, the zohar is in aramaic, which would tend to indicate that it's a suitable language for nistar, as indeed the inclusion of "berich shemeh" in the Torah service would indicate. for me, this would indicate a rootedness in a set time-period for certain purposes. i think we agree about davenology, althought the name makes me cringe. if anything, my own personal "renewal" has been entirely enabled by more or less self-taught davenology, as well as nistar; the accent and so on being crucial to this, which is why i insist upon it. everything else is driven off that. b'shalom bananabrain

09-29-2005, 01:29 PM	#20 (permalink)
dauer Super Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Near Boston Posts: 1,907	Re: Return of the mosiach and the regathering My feeling about using English is that there should be some conciousness about the most essential and transcendent Hebrew terminology, and that this should be introduced into any English study or prayer in order to create a sort of Judeo-English. I would also include some yiddish, but that's the ashkenazi in me. I think including yiddish is more cultural. But I think in order to keep the concepts clean a Judeo-English is essential. Most people don't know what qorban means, or issur, or kedusha, or tamei, or even Tanach, or chiddush, or halachah, or even baruch, or even what the Tetragrammaton is all about. If we can't get people to learn Hebrew, my feeling is we can get them to learn a few words that are on their own very engaging, each having its own story. And then when they speak and davven the vernacular, they don't lose so much, unless of course you're going by the mystical understandings of the importance of the Hebrew language. I do indeed make the assumptions about Aramaic in services and the only reasons I think it shouldn't be translated into English in services are because every child knows it, it carries a certain power to it because of the associations we make with it, the actual translation would bother some people during the mourner's, and it exposes people to aramaic. The only reason I like the word davenology is because it's "so bad it's good." It's like those cheesy "B" sci-fi movies that are just awful, but they're really good because of it, like a good Vincent Price film. It sounds like something I'd learn in a study hall, but nobody learns davenology in a study hall. It's learned in action. Dauer

10-27-2005, 01:24 AM	#21 (permalink)
WesleyWes New Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 3	Re: Return of the mosiach and the regathering I agree with saddusaic belief that there isnt one. The pharisees believed in a natural one. The Essenes a super-natural one. Now looked at as a messianic era. I see it all as wishful thinking. Torah some say, does not mention a messianic figure. Peace!

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