resurrection

[mee]

Originally Posted by JJM

so the people who he judges worthy of resurrection will not only have the capability of sin but will also use it. and then when they do they will die again.

Are ,but remember ,the opposer of Jehovah God will not be around then to mislead people ,he has been put out of the way for a thousand years ,things will be differant then ,the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one at this point in time , but not then . it will make a difference to people coming to an accurate knowledge of God when he is out the way .remember the trouble started back in Eden only when the opposer showed up. this world as we know it now has always had satan around but just think when he is not around people can learn about God . and the bible even says that there will be new scrolls ,who knows what will be in them . exiting times i would say . it is Jehovahs purpose to have humans living forever on a paradise earth and that purpose will be acomplished even thou satan has put a damper on it at the momment, Jehovahs purpose will be fullfilled.

[JJM]

Originally Posted by mee

Are ,but remember ,the opposer of Jehovah God will not be around then to mislead people ,he has been put out of the way for a thousand years ,things will be differant then ,the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one at this point in time , but not then . it will make a difference to people coming to an accurate knowledge of God when he is out the way .remember the trouble started back in Eden only when the opposer showed up. this world as we know it now has always had satan around but just think when he is not around people can learn about God . and the bible even says that there will be new scrolls ,who knows what will be in them . exiting times i would say . it is Jehovahs purpose to have humans living forever on a paradise earth and that purpose will be acomplished even thou satan has put a damper on it at the momment, Jehovahs purpose will be fullfilled.

I agree (Except for your overly literal interpretation of Revelation as far as I'm concerned the scrolls, if I know what you’re taking about, were the Book of Revelation and the 1000 year reign is already taking place.) but that is my point. How can someone completely showered by the grace of God, with out any temptation, who was good enough in life that God deemed them worthy of eternal life still reject Jesus? Unless they were already doing it when they died but if that is so why would God deem them worthy of resurrection in the first place or at least over the next hardened sinner?

[mee]

Originally Posted by JJM

I agree (Except for your overly literal interpretation of Revelation as far as I'm concerned the scrolls, if I know what you’re taking about, were the Book of Revelation and the 1000 year reign is already taking place.) but that is my point. How can someone completely showered by the grace of God, with out any temptation, who was good enough in life that God deemed them worthy of eternal life still reject Jesus? Unless they were already doing it when they died but if that is so why would God deem them worthy of resurrection in the first place or at least over the next hardened sinner?

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds....rev 20;12

other scrolls that will be opened during the Millennial Reign. What will these be? For example, in Moses’ day there were laws that meant life for the Israelites if they obeyed. (Deuteronomy 4:40; 32:45-47) in the first century, new instructions were given to help faithful ones to follow Jehovah’s principles under the Christian system of things. (Matthew 28:19, 20; John 13:34; 15:9, 10) Now John reports that the dead are to be "judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds." Evidently, then, the opening of these scrolls will showJehovah’s requirements for mankind during the thousand years. By applying in their lives the regulations and commandments of those scrolls, obedient humans will be able to attain finally to everlasting life .but it is possible to be erased from the book of life

(Psalm 69:28) Let them be wiped out of the book of the living ones, And with the righteous ones may they not be written in.





(Daniel 12:1) "And during that time Mi´cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book.



(Philippians 4:3) Yes, I request you too, genuine yokefellow, keep assisting these [women] who have striven side by side with me in the good news along with Clement as well as the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.



(Revelation 3:5) He that conquers will thus be arrayed in white outer garments; and I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life, but I will make acknowledgment of his name before my Father and before his angels.



(Revelation 17:8) The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world.......so it will be possible to be erased from the book of life if we do not obey . it will certainly sort people out dont you agree .

But now if you will pardon their sin,—and if not, wipe me out, please, from your book that you have written." However, Jehovah said to Moses: "Whoever has sinned against me, I shall wipe him out of my book EXODUS32;32-33so maybe they are written in ,in pencil , just incase LOL plus as far as i am aware the 1000 years will not start un till satan is put out of action in the abyss he will not be able to have any contact with the kingdom of rightousness .what a relief for mankind....revelation 20;1-3

[JJM]

Originally Posted by mee

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds....rev 20;12

other scrolls that will be opened during the Millennial Reign. What will these be? For example, in Moses’ day there were laws that meant life for the Israelites if they obeyed. (Deuteronomy 4:40; 32:45-47) in the first century, new instructions were given to help faithful ones to follow Jehovah’s principles under the Christian system of things. (Matthew 28:19, 20; John 13:34; 15:9, 10) Now John reports that the dead are to be "judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds." Evidently, then, the opening of these scrolls will showJehovah’s requirements for mankind during the thousand years. By applying in their lives the regulations and commandments of those scrolls, obedient humans will be able to attain finally to everlasting life .but it is possible to be erased from the book of life

(Psalm 69:28) Let them be wiped out of the book of the living ones, And with the righteous ones may they not be written in.






(Daniel 12:1) "And during that time Mi´cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book.



(Philippians 4:3) Yes, I request you too, genuine yokefellow, keep assisting these [women] who have striven side by side with me in the good news along with Clement as well as the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.



(Revelation 3:5) He that conquers will thus be arrayed in white outer garments; and I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life, but I will make acknowledgment of his name before my Father and before his angels.



(Revelation 17:8) The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world.......so it will be possible to be erased from the book of life if we do not obey . it will certainly sort people out dont you agree .

But now if you will pardon their sin,—and if not, wipe me out, please, from your book that you have written." However, Jehovah said to Moses: "Whoever has sinned against me, I shall wipe him out of my book EXODUS32;32-33so maybe they are written in ,in pencil , just incase LOL plus as far as i am aware the 1000 years will not start un till satan is put out of action in the abyss he will not be able to have any contact with the kingdom of rightousness .what a relief for mankind....revelation 20;1-3

I think those books have written in them the deeds of those men and the names of those God has given/ not given eternal life to thus they will be judged by them. They don’t contain new rules we already have the fullness of revelation. I thought you were referencing this scroll though

"And I saw, in the right hand of him that sat on the throne, a book, written within and without, sealed with seven seals"Revelation 5:1 but this is a side conversation you have yet to answer my question.

[mee]

Originally Posted by JJM

I think those books have written in them the deeds of those men and the names of those God has given/ not given eternal life to thus they will be judged by them. They don’t contain new rules we already have the fullness of revelation. I thought you were referencing this scroll though

"And I saw, in the right hand of him that sat on the throne, a book, written within and without, sealed with seven seals"Revelation 5:1 but this is a side conversation you have yet to answer my question.

no i was not refering to that scroll , remember it will take a 1000 years for mankind to get back to the perfection of the first man and woman on the earth (Adam and Eve)then we will be in the same postion as Adam and Eve and then Satan will be let loose for a little while ,who knows what sort of tactics Satan will use to get us to go against Gods sovreignty...rev 20; 7-9a again it will sort out those who are not loving God...as you mentioned rev 5;1 this scroll is the scroll that Jehovah has entrusted to Jesus christ he alone has the aurthorityin the heavens and the earth to recieve this scroll and then make known its message....matthew 28;18
And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth......also as far as i am aware the 1000 year reign of christ will not start untill after armaggedon. yes he is now king in the heavens , but the reign on the earth will not happen untill after Gods war and the abyssing of satan.

[JJM]

Originally Posted by mee

no i was not refering to that scroll , remember it will take a 1000 years for mankind to get back to the perfection of the first man and woman on the earth (Adam and Eve)then we will be in the same postion as Adam and Eve and then Satan will be let loose for a little while ,who knows what sort of tactics Satan will use to get us to go against Gods sovreignty...rev 20; 7-9a again it will sort out those who are not loving God...as you mentioned rev 5;1 this scroll is the scroll that Jehovah has entrusted to Jesus christ he alone has the aurthorityin the heavens and the earth to recieve this scroll and then make known its message....matthew 28;18
And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth......also as far as i am aware the 1000 year reign of christ will not start untill after armaggedon. yes he is now king in the heavens , but the reign on the earth will not happen untill after Gods war and the abyssing of satan.

I realize now you weren't referring to that scroll but I thought you were at first that is why I said that. What makes you say that 1000 year reign will happen after Armageddon?

[mee]

Originally Posted by JJM

I realize now you weren't referring to that scroll but I thought you were at first that is why I said that. What makes you say that 1000 year reign will happen after Armageddon?

because the vision in revelation 20;1-10is about the abyssing of satan, the millennial reign, mankinds final test, and satans destruction. the time of fullfillment is from the end of the great tribulation to the destruction of satan

[JJM]

Originally Posted by mee

because the vision in revelation 20;1-10is about the abyssing of satan, the millennial reign, mankinds final test, and satans destruction. the time of fullfillment is from the end of the great tribulation to the destruction of satan

ok I have yet to read revelations in it's entirety so I can't really argue with you. If you see revelations as a chronological story written to mean exactly what it says rather than a cryptic set of letters with hidden meanings to protect them from the Romans who would like to destroy them then you are absolutely correct.

[mee]

Dead loved ones will be restored to life with the prospect of never dying. All those sleeping in death who are in Jehovahs memory will be brought back to life. in fact, there is going to be a resurrection of both the rightous and the unrighteous...acts 24;15 john 5;28- 29what a marvelousfuture awaits those who choose to learn about our grand instructorJehovah God and to serve him. it was to the coming paradise on earth that Jesus pointed when he promised the evil doer who died along side him ...you will be with me in paradise....luke 23;43all of these blessing will be possibleand will come about through Jesus christ.wow what a promise that will come true.do you not agree that is some promise?

[Faithfulservant]

man was made for the earth would you not agree?

I disagree.. I believe the earth was made for man. Man was made for God.

And I also believe that He didnt make us to only allow 144,000 to see paradise in all the thousands of years of the history of the world.

The God I worship teaches hope through Jesus Christ who is our salvation.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

Dead loved ones will be restored to life with the prospect of never dying. All those sleeping in death who are in Jehovahs memory will be brought back to life. in fact, there is going to be a resurrection of both the rightous and the unrighteous...acts 24;15 john 5;28- 29what a marvelousfuture awaits those who choose to learn about our grand instructorJehovah God and to serve him. it was to the coming paradise on earth that Jesus pointed when he promised the evil doer who died along side him ...you will be with me in paradise....luke 23;43all of these blessing will be possibleand will come about through Jesus christ.wow what a promise that will come true.do you not agree that is some promise?

I see what you're saying. But the "dead" sleeping in the hope of Christ are long risen to heaven. And those that die today with Christ as their savior do not touch the grave spiritually, though their bodies return to dust. That is what Paul drove into our hearts and minds. No one who is saved in Christ goes to the grave spiritually. They will have new bodies at one time later, but now they enjoy the light of Christ in heaven.

Maybe later, some will stay in heaven, and some will return to the new earth (oh pick me, pick me! ). Actually, I'd rather explore the universe, and see all the wonders as they are.

Back to the original thought. What we put into the ground (us saved), is but a shell that housed who we are. The spirit that is us moved on the instant the body could not sustain it's presence. We do not rest in the grave. I sure as hell wouldn't.

You once mentioned that we sleep until awakened, with no consideration of time passing. Even victims of coma's report time passing, and dreaming. You mentioned the spirit of man being mortal, but spirit is energy, and energy cannot be created nor destroyed...only changed, and once it is expended, it is out there forever. Energy does not rest. It can be contained, but it does not rest.

How can I consider the saved man as being uncontained while the unsaved man can be? Accepting Christ changes the spirit of a man, including the dynamics of that spirit. It is alive with the light of Christ, and is nolonger natural man.

Personally, I doubt that natural man's spirit remains within the body in the grave either. Though I shudder to think were that spirit ends up, while awaiting their judgement. Energy cannot be destroyed (according to current laws of physics).

Unfortunately no one has come back recently to confirm or deny how things go...not that can be observed and documented as proof...hence the faith part of things.

Personally, I'd like to see heaven, and all there is about it. And I'd love to see those I care so deeply about. But I want to explore what is out there, and want Jesus to show me. Pretty selfish I should think. But He is omnipresent, so I don't think I'd be taking away from anyone else's time with Him.

v/r

Q

[mee]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I disagree.. I believe the earth was made for man. Man was made for God.

And I also believe that He didnt make us to only allow 144,000 to see paradise in all the thousands of years of the history of the world.

The God I worship teaches hope through Jesus Christ who is our salvation.

yes i agree the earth was made for man to live on ,same thing really .and yes you are right , the new earth that is promised in 2;peter 3;13 will be for many more than 144000,the 144000 are the ones that will go to heaven to be with Christ Jesus in the heavenly kingdom ,and they are going there for a purpose ,and that purpose is to rule with christ as kings and priests over the earth, so they are not going for there own selfish reasons but because they are part of the rulership in the heavens.
you(Jesus) were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth....rev 5;9-10



(Revelation 20:4) And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years

(Revelation 22:5) Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor [do they have] sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever

And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth rev 14;3
Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years. rev 20;6, but that does not mean that the rest of us are without hope because the rest of us have the hope to live forever on a new paradise earth with only the best of rulership, with Jesus as our king

And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd John 10;16

(Revelation 7:9) After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands....yes Jesus Chirst as you say is our salvation if we welcome his kingship.?
But there are new heavens(rulership) and a new earth (earthly society of people)that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell 2 peter 3;13

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I see what you're saying. But the "dead" sleeping in the hope of Christ are long risen to heaven. And those that die today with Christ as their savior do not touch the grave spiritually, though their bodies return to dust. That is what Paul drove into our hearts and minds. No one who is saved in Christ goes to the grave spiritually. They will have new bodies at one time later, but now they enjoy the light of Christ in heaven.

Maybe later, some will stay in heaven, and some will return to the new earth (oh pick me, pick me! ). Actually, I'd rather explore the universe, and see all the wonders as they are.

Back to the original thought. What we put into the ground (us saved), is but a shell that housed who we are. The spirit that is us moved on the instant the body could not sustain it's presence. We do not rest in the grave. I sure as hell wouldn't.

You once mentioned that we sleep until awakened, with no consideration of time passing. Even victims of coma's report time passing, and dreaming. You mentioned the spirit of man being mortal, but spirit is energy, and energy cannot be created nor destroyed...only changed, and once it is expended, it is out there forever. Energy does not rest. It can be contained, but it does not rest.

How can I consider the saved man as being uncontained while the unsaved man can be? Accepting Christ changes the spirit of a man, including the dynamics of that spirit. It is alive with the light of Christ, and is nolonger natural man.

Personally, I doubt that natural man's spirit remains within the body in the grave either. Though I shudder to think were that spirit ends up, while awaiting their judgement. Energy cannot be destroyed (according to current laws of physics).

Unfortunately no one has come back recently to confirm or deny how things go...not that can be observed and documented as proof...hence the faith part of things.

Personally, I'd like to see heaven, and all there is about it. And I'd love to see those I care so deeply about. But I want to explore what is out there, and want Jesus to show me. Pretty selfish I should think. But He is omnipresent, so I don't think I'd be taking away from anyone else's time with Him.

v/r

Q

yes in the lords day , many things regarding the resurrection of those who will rule with christ in the heavenly kingdom goverment are happening,but thosewho have the prospect of living on the new earth are yet sleeping in death
Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope 1 thessalonians 4;13

(John 11:11) He said these things, and after this he said to them: "Laz´a·rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep."





(Acts 7:60) Then, bending his knees, he cried out with a strong voice: "Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them." And after saying this he fell asleep [in death].

(1 Corinthians 15:6) After that he appeared to upward of five hundred brothers at one time, the most of whom remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep [in death] yes as the bible tells us death is like being asleep .we are not aware of any thing

For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten...Ecllesiastes 9;5

He (Jesus)said these things, and after this he said to them: "Laz´a·rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep." Therefore the disciples said to him: "Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well." Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. At that time, therefore, Jesus said to them outspokenly: "Laz´a·rus has died....John 11;11-14when you mentioned people in a coma the bible only tells us about dead people not people in a coma i am only interested in what the bible tells me about what happens when we die .and Jesus said that death is like being asleep we are not conscious of any thing ,untill the resurrection when Jesus brings us back to live

[Quahom1]

One cannot mix the OT with the NT concerning the death of man. It is apples and oranges. The OT gave man a promise of the coming of the Messiah and the raising of the dead. In the NT the Messiah is come and death is no more (for the faithful). One is a promise of a convenant, and the other is fulfillment of that covenant.

Second, If you think that people would be satified to be "ruled" by other people, in the afterlife, you are looking at another "rebellion". Jesus doesn't need help ruling over man, especially by other men. Nor is there a need for Jesus to have human "priests" to help minister to people, in the new heaven and new earth.

What you've just described is a "caste" system. That is unacceptable. And if that were the consensus Christian wide...I would have no part in Christianity. I would shake it off like dust from my boots.

I've lived most my life fighting against such condasending thinking, and resultant subjugation of people by the Authorities that "lord" it over them. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live eternity under such a form of government.

I recall a passage wherein Jesus made it clear that no man is greater or lesser than the other, and there are no favorites. All come short of the Glory of God.

I always thought that Christianity taught first and foremost, humility...not superiority over others.

Doesn't matter how one slices it up. To assume that one is going to be even a "candidate" for co-rulership over man with God, is a perilous pitfall, as it sounds a lot like what Lucifer thought, right before he crashed and burned.

v/r

Q

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

One cannot mix the OT with the NT concerning the death of man. It is apples and oranges. The OT gave man a promise of the coming of the Messiah and the raising of the dead. In the NT the Messiah is come and death is no more (for the faithful). One is a promise of a convenant, and the other is fulfillment of that covenant.

Second, If you think that people would be satified to be "ruled" by other people, in the afterlife, you are looking at another "rebellion". Jesus doesn't need help ruling over man, especially by other men. Nor is there a need for Jesus to have human "priests" to help minister to people, in the new heaven and new earth.

What you've just described is a "caste" system. That is unacceptable. And if that were the consensus Christian wide...I would have no part in Christianity. I would shake it off like dust from my boots.

I've lived most my life fighting against such condasending thinking, and resultant subjugation of people by the Authorities that "lord" it over them. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live eternity under such a form of government.

I recall a passage wherein Jesus made it clear that no man is greater or lesser than the other, and there are no favorites. All come short of the Glory of God.

I always thought that Christianity taught first and foremost, humility...not superiority over others.

Doesn't matter how one slices it up. To assume that one is going to be even a "candidate" for co-rulership over man with God, is a perilous pitfall, as it sounds a lot like what Lucifer thought, right before he crashed and burned.

v/r

Q

i supose it depends on weather we believe the bible , because that is what the bible teaches .plus Jesus is the king of that heavenly goverment not just any man. he is the image of God with the attributes of God , LOVE,JUSTICE, WISDOM,POWERyes he will rule in a just way , not like the goverments around today which are all manmade . there is a big difference. was he not the greatest teacher on the earth when he was here as a man,plus people will not be ruled in the afterlife they will be on the earth enjoying the paradise earth.the ones in heaven are working along with Jesus .