Respectful questions on a difficult subject

[wil]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Clearly this poor desperate woman is trying to find something in the Quran that will support her lifestyle and I am afraid she will fail, because no such support exists. .... I was also quite frankly peeved to see how my fellow Muslims speak to people of other faiths on the Islam board ... Perhaps you should spend a little less time posting such intolerance and more time reciting the Quran until you learn to behave as a decent Muslim.

Namaste Muslimwoman...

Speaking out of turn I'm thinking Scarlet was more looking for reference, for understanding what exactly Islamic thought was on the subject.

Speaking for myself, I see a lot of hand holding with Arabic men. I always wondered if that was due to homosexuality being prevelant or simply a culture that didn't contain the prudish homophobic nature of the US. Here men holding hands or hugging 'is just gay' as the young folks say and many of them are terribly worried about being perceived that way.

In regards to your Islamic brothers not acting quite as Islamic as you like, it is also interesting to see that which I see of my own religion. Often it appears those that consider themselves quite Christian...more Christian than most act in most unChristianlike ways. I however can't speak too loudly on this subject as my memory is not that clouded.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by wil

Speaking for myself, I see a lot of hand holding with Arabic men. I always wondered if that was due to homosexuality being prevelant or simply a culture that didn't contain the prudish homophobic nature of the US. Here men holding hands or hugging 'is just gay' as the young folks say and many of them are terribly worried about being perceived that way.

wa aleykum salaam Wil

Okay here is a good example. My husband is about as homophobic as I have ever seen, yet he will walk down the street holding hands with his friends, he will kiss them on the cheek (yet he is not allowed to kiss me on the cheek in public). It is quite a joke for me, that my husband spends all day 'snogging' men but can't kiss his own wife. For the men here it is about brotherhood, there is no sexual overtone.

My husband cannot kiss me in public because this would create certain thoughts for non married men and would be considered lewd, because obviously my husband kisses me because he loves me and has a sexual relationship with me, so we keep this private. He can of course kiss his mother or sister on the cheek in public because there can be no sexual overtone to this.

Saudi is another story, as is Tunisia and a couple of other North African countries. They have a deep seated cultural aspect to this, the attitude that women are for making babies with and men are for having fun with. It is totally unIslamic.

Originally Posted by wil

In regards to your Islamic brothers not acting quite as Islamic as you like, it is also interesting to see that which I see of my own religion. Often it appears those that consider themselves quite Christian...more Christian than most act in most unChristianlike ways. I however can't speak too loudly on this subject as my memory is not that clouded.

Okay so I was doing my school teacher bit, I shall go and sit on the naughty spot. However, Muslims are not taught to speak to people about our religion in this way. It deeply insults me when I see our faith portrayed in this way and I don't understand why anyone would join an interfaith forum just to insult people. As my brother Abdullah has explained so well, even in such a short post, Muslims are taught to be tolerant and this also means explaining our faith in a respectful way. So I shall sit on the naughty spot but I'm not saying sorry

Salaam

[Laylah]

Assalamu alaikum and Peace,

All I wanted to add was simply this I agree with her statement that Allah (swt) creates us all for a purpose, I believe that he does, he gives us all types of challenges to face in our life. Not all of these tests are the same for each person must face their own.

Some people become sick with a disease, some people live in war torn areas, some people are gay, some people are rich and some are poor these are only some examples. There are people in this world who are autistic, God gives us tests we must face in our lives, and he gives us guidance in the Qur'an and Sunnah bas it is up to us to follow and do whats right. I don't believe that being gay and being muslim is wrong I believe that she knows full well this is not permitted bas it is up to her to face her test because in the end only God knows (allahu alim) who has passed, and we will all be judged the same.

I don't like to use the word Kafir because to me its just another way of calling someone a name...I believe we should have understanding for other peoples struggles, and try to encourage them to do whats right not force...help. Being gay is just another urge to me...one that you must fight against to be a proper muslim, for in the end it is not other muslims judgment you will have to face but Allahs(swt).
Half of the religion is on you and the other half of your religion being completed is to get married and to have children, I am not sure how she may be able to explain this away.
I would suggest to you to read the Qur'an yourself first :O)

Hope that helps you insha'Allah (swt)

Fee Amaan Allah and Peace Ma3salama

[Laylah]

jjjj

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Muslimwoman...

Speaking out of turn I'm thinking Scarlet was more looking for reference, for understanding what exactly Islamic thought was on the subject.

Speaking for myself, I see a lot of hand holding with Arabic men. I always wondered if that was due to homosexuality being prevelant or simply a culture that didn't contain the prudish homophobic nature of the US. Here men holding hands or hugging 'is just gay' as the young folks say and many of them are terribly worried about being perceived that way.

In regards to your Islamic brothers not acting quite as Islamic as you like, it is also interesting to see that which I see of my own religion. Often it appears those that consider themselves quite Christian...more Christian than most act in most unChristianlike ways. I however can't speak too loudly on this subject as my memory is not that clouded.

Ahhhhch! It is a cultural thing. My family (which happens to be third generation Irish on both sides), still exercises the tradition of male family members kissing male family members on the mouth or side of the neck, upon greetings and farewells. It is a sign of affection indeed, but also a show of bonding and cohesiveness of the family, to the outside world. Also, holding hands with same sex is expected, particularly if the hands doing the holding belong to a younger and elder of the family members.

There used to be a time in America, when we instructed our children to hold eachother's hands in times of danger, or as a matter of security, or in just plain friendship. "Hold hands when you cross the street. Hold hands when you're walking through dark places. Hold hands when someone is hurting."

Somewhere along the way in the past quarter century, Americans lost that intimacy of innocence and love.

Perhaps a knee jerk reaction to the gay liberation movement (hey, that seems to be a fact). I've heard parents say to their male children "Don't hold his hand, don't hug him, they might call you gay!"

I've had military buddies come stay with me at my parents' home, and were awed when I kissed my dad or brothers when we greeted.

Know what they asked? "Your family is tight, huh?"

Like that is a new concept?

That is what ticks me off. Old family traditions falling by the wayside becuase of fear of being stereotyped.

Europe (which never had such issues), suddenly does.

oy...what a mess

v/r

Q

[ardenz]

Is this a tangent which should move to another section..?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by ardenz

Is this a tangent which should move to another section..?

Why? The fact that other cultures hold hands as a matter of recourse bother you?

I thought the question was, is this ok?

v/r

Q

[ardenz]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Why? The fact that other cultures hold hands as a matter of recourse bother you?

I thought the question was, is this ok?

v/r

Q

No not at all, I find the discussion interesting and I find it interesting to get various opinions and cultural differences as regarding public intimacy and greetings - though I do wonder that male intimacy is often only really seen in public sporting activities.
I just was wondering if it could be openly discussed in a comparative section of the forum or in sociology.
I am not always clear in my communications - it is probably due to my cultural background.

Ardenz

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by ardenz

No not at all, I find the discussion interesting and I find it interesting to get various opinions and cultural differences as regarding public intimacy and greetings - though I do wonder that male intimacy is often only really seen in public sporting activities.
I just was wondering if it could be openly discussed in a comparative section of the forum or in sociology.
I am not always clear in my communications - it is probably due to my cultural background.

Ardenz

Hi Ardenz

I don't think we have gone off subject yet, the original question was about Muslims and homosexuality. Muslim men do hold hands walking in the street and kiss but I was just pointing out these are not sexual acts but acts of bonding/brotherhood. I think Q was supporting this with the issue of his cultural heritage and changing experiences in the US.

I do understand that non Muslims may see this behaviour as hypocritical, as homosexuality is forbidden in Islam yet the chaps are still highly affectionate in public. Certainly when I first moved to Egypt I was under the impression that homosexuality was rampant, just because my western upbringing was in fact so homophobic, yet we talk about how accepting we are. A great example is football, in my home rugby was the game of choice because footballers were all "poofters that go round snogging each other". Virtually any male bonding in the UK and USA, beyond a brisk slap on the back, is seen as a weakness and even showing certain 'tendancies'. The rest of Europe is still far more relaxed about males showing each other affection. I have also noted that women no longer really kiss each other, I have seen many female friends in UK stiffen when I go to kiss them on the cheek - something has definately gone wrong with our society. Of course in time I found that Muslim societies are against homosexuality, as it is forbidden, but their culture still accepts shows of affection between men and quite frankly I rather like it, why should men just shake hands with people they love?

Salaam

[hidayah]

Salaam everybody

Homosexuality eh.

Ah, the way I see it (and I hope I am not offending anyone by saying this), homosexuality is all about the sexual act. I don't think it is wrong for me to love another woman and wanting to be with her always but being sexually intimate with her would certainly be wrong because it is against nature.

I don't think falling in love with someone of the same gender is deemed to be homosexual. Carrying out a sexual act, is. "Falling in love" does not necessarily lead to sexual attraction. Even if it does, being human is all about choices. You can choose to be a heterosexual. Urges are simply... Urges.

What's wrong with loving someone and not having sex with them?

Maybe what I said may come across as homophobic and simple minded but it's just how I see it.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Laylah

I would suggest to you to read the Qur'an yourself first :O)

wa aleikum salaam

No idea how I missed your post when I last visited this thread, sorry.

The above comment was not about the issue of homosexuality, it was about the intolerence being shown to non Muslims on our board. Do you believe we, as Muslims, are taught to name call and insult people to put accross our beliefs? If a Muslim is filled with such anger and hatred is it not better that they read the Quran, to ease their mind, until they learn to control their anger?

As for my views on homosexuality - Of course I am against it, as instructed by Allah (just look at the story of Lut) but this does not mean that I agree with verbal or physical harrassment or abuse of homosexuals. They must be treated with kindness, tolerence and offered help. A common argument is that "Allah made us this way" but this is simply trying to make Allah responsible for a persons lifestyle choice. If Allah 'made people this way' why would He destroy the people in the story of Lut? The other argument is "it is a test from Allah" and this may be correct but surely the way to 'pass' the test is to say no to sin, not carry on sinning and blame Allah?

We must accept Allah's instruction in all things:

Lo! ye come with lust unto men instead of women. Nay, but ye are wanton folk.” (Quran: 7:80-81)

There are many things in our religion which I believe are man made and are not contained in the Quran but this subject is dealt with in the Quran, so no matter how much we try to avoid the issue it was made haram by Allah. What is important is how we choose to treat people who are confused about their sexuality, it is not for us to 'judge' them or call them names.

I think one interesting thing to consider is why in Islam we are taught to be modest in dress even with people of the same sex (e.g., when swimming or in our homes). This may seem oppressive and silly to some but surely it is a blessing from our Beloved Prophet (pbuh), as it helps us to avoid such urges.

Salaam

[LeoSalinas22]

hello fellow posters,
i was reading this thead and it is very interesting. i myself am totally against homosexuality because it is an abomination in God's eyes. but i also agree that we should treat homosexuals with compassion. we are no one to judge them for God will do that on the day of Judgment.
but as i was reading this thread, a scripture from the bible came up that reminded me about the public affection between two men, namely David and Jonathan. i won't post the scripture on an Islamic board so i will post it on the Abrahamic board since i want point of views from jewish, christian and muslims alike. the thread is right here .
thanks and God bless you all...