religious rights

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

That is exactly what you do think though. I am surprised to find you repeating the same old prejudiced "facts" without a shred of evidence.


In the end though, you should ask yourself, if it doesn't affect you, why are you so worked up about it? That might perhaps tell you something about yourself.

And I am surprised that you would use the battle cry of liberal do-gooders to try and belittle an honest opinion. Someone dare says a section of gay culture is openly paedophillic then they must be a gay-hating fascists. Not the case. I have very good reasons for my beliefs.
I said previously that Edinburgh has a large gay community. They require gay bars and gay nightclubs. I happen to know the people who run several of them and have known of them for many years. I also know they are responsible for running/supplying a significant part of the Edinburgh drug scene. To cut a long story short there is a Gay mafia, that numbers dozens of individuals, who use drugs to control 100s of boys from 12 and younger to sell drugs and provide homosexual prostitution. I live very close to the back entrance of a particular establishment where trade takes palace in both of these things. And I have personally seen several 'gay' celebrities at this establishment. There is a large network of gays that primarily feed on young boys and keep them compliant with the provision of drugs and money. The police have 3 times in recent years attempted to convict one of the ringleaders, a celebrity in his own way too (I will pm you his name if you want), but each time have failed to convict him. But he is only one of several that opperate in this way. Others run other establishments such as cafes and amusement arcade where they groom fresh meat. And I also know that this network is not confined to Edinburgh, it is very widespread.

Why am I so passionate about the subject? What is this meant to mean? I find it offensive that you spew this typical liberal antagonism of calling into question my own sexuality because I dare say something un-pc. Since you ask tho I have this interest for 2 reasons. I have been the victim of sexual assault as a child. And I saw school friends fall into heroin addiction and die of aids after being be-friended by the people I speak of above. So I may not have any reports produced by gay apologists but I do have all the evidence I need to be very very sure of what I speak. There is a large network of Gay men who are paedophiles.

I have been a paying member of Amnesty International and a regular subscriber to New Internationalist most my adult life. So you can go on thinking I am merely a prejudiced fool. I know I am anything but.

Tao

[Tao_Equus]

On a lighter note.... i found this..

YouTube - Gay Christian

[Faithfulservant]

Im a bit of a small town girl.. When I moved to Dallas I was fascinated by all the darkness found here... It was so alien to what I was used to. Dor showed me whore houses (Id never seen one) streets lined with hookers waiting for a john... He took me into areas that were primarily homosexual.. the apartments where they lived.. an entire street lined with clubs where they frequented. At night you could drive through this area and see hundreds of homosexual men and women so open with their sexuality.. You dont see it to this degree in areas heavily populated with heterosexuals.. Its like they have to flaunt it to a degree that its disturbing. The worst of this area are the parks...parks created for families to congregate with toys for children to play on... well at night this place is lined with parked cars..windows steamed.. People dont take their children there. Yeah.

Ironically.. in this area you dont see the church on every corner like you do everywhere else in this state... you see porn shops and liquor stores..

What does all that mean???

You tell me. It certainly is not a area where family is promoted.. its a place of sin and degenerate behavior.. Darkness.

Im not exaggerating at all about any of this. Its very disturbing.

[Impqueen]

There may indeed be a horrible gay mafia network in Edinburgh that really needs sorting out. There may be a park near you gay people use to meet for casual sex. But that doesn't mean all gay people are like that!

Yes the adoption agencies thing is wrong, but it's the only example I can think of. We should be weighing rights against rights and that was a delicate balance which I think the government got really wrong. I still have yet to see anyone forced to do anything against their morals though, they may have to close their adoption agencies in the face of the clash between their morals and the law, (a real shame of course) but they still have the choice.

I find it offensive that you spew this typical liberal antagonism of calling into question my own sexuality because I dare say something un-pc.

I hadn't interpreted Cliff's words this way.... I thought he meant it might tell you something really deep about yourself rather than just which gender you like to bed with, which is a rather shallow thing really.

Democracy isn't perfect but it's a damn sight nearer than theocracy.

Many heterosexual people (including some women) abuse the children in their care. Foster parents of all genders and orientations should have a careful eye over them. Individuals who abuse children are the lowest of the low, but they are individuals, not part of some gay group-mind.

Oh, and porn shops and liquor stores are used by straight people too.....

Sorry if all this makes me a wishy-washy liberal but you're tarring some really nice people with a really big brush here.

[earl]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Im a bit of a small town girl.. When I moved to Dallas I was fascinated by all the darkness found here... It was so alien to what I was used to. Dor showed me whore houses (Id never seen one) streets lined with hookers waiting for a john... He took me into areas that were primarily homosexual.. the apartments where they lived.. an entire street lined with clubs where they frequented. At night you could drive through this area and see hundreds of homosexual men and women so open with their sexuality.. You dont see it to this degree in areas heavily populated with heterosexuals.. Its like they have to flaunt it to a degree that its disturbing. The worst of this area are the parks...parks created for families to congregate with toys for children to play on... well at night this place is lined with parked cars..windows steamed.. People dont take their children there. Yeah.

Ironically.. in this area you dont see the church on every corner like you do everywhere else in this state... you see porn shops and liquor stores..

What does all that mean???

You tell me. It certainly is not a area where family is promoted.. its a place of sin and degenerate behavior.. Darkness.

Im not exaggerating at all about any of this. Its very disturbing.

You have raised an interesting observation Faithfulservant. Some years ago I read some research which suggested that homosexual men statistically were far more promiscuous not only than hetersoexual ones but more so than female homosexuals, (by the way, why is it whenever this topic comes up folks seem far more alarmed about male homosexuals as most of the discussion is about them as opposed to female?) But, of course, sexual compulsivity/promiscuity is a separate topic from sexual attraction/identity. Male heterosexuals tend to be more "promiscuous" than females in terms of number of partners over time. Certainly the multi-billion dollar porn industry gets most of its revenues I suspect from essentially hetersosexuals (men I'd guess). Which ever way you swing, when the focus of a relationship hinges primarily on somewhere south of the heart, it tends to de-humanize any relationship which is indeed troubling. Many decades ago an early American sex researcher, Kinsey, had discovered what francis mentioned, that when it comes to sexuality, it is probably more accurate to speak of a continuum between pure heterosexuality and pure homosexuality for humanity. But as to basic human rights and standards of decency, does it really matter beyond how we treat each other? Years ago (many) I heard the saying that it doesn't matter how you love, only that you love. If we accomplish that, tis sufficient in my "good" book. earl

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Impqueen

There may indeed be a horrible gay mafia network in Edinburgh that really needs sorting out.

Not may, there is, and as I said it is not restricted to here. It has links with other similar groups in London, Newcastle, Liverpool and Brighton and these are just the ones I know of with certainty. Its not a small problem and must have involved many 1000s of people down the 25 years since I first learned of them. I think most people are actually pretty naive to what really goes on in the underbelly of our cities. Most gays are however aware of these networks, and within that community there is a conspiracy of silence as the police have stated many a time. Take the case of the man drugged and buggered to death in Michael Barrymore's house as a prime example of how they close ranks. It is my estimation, and I may be wrong but I think not, that the type of gay you, and I, would want to enjoy full equal rights are a minority group within the gay community. It is a predatory male dominated culture I see here. It has nothing to do with love and companionship between 2 individuals and everything to do with the particular sexual fetishism they get off on.

I hadn't interpreted Cliff's words this way.... I thought he meant it might tell you something really deep about yourself rather than just which gender you like to bed with, which is a rather shallow thing really.

Maybe I did misinterpret, and if I did I apologise. But I have had this argument before and had that kind of comment thrown at me. But I ask you, look at what he said, is it a huge surprise that I interpreted it so? I do not have to dig deep to find my reasons. I have very well defined reasons. I think it is the people who really have no experience of the extent and depravity of large sections of that community that really have to dig deep and see if this culture of PC does not lure them into believing nice sweet myths.


Tao

[earl]

Some years ago my wife and I are were in the old market section of Santa Fe and they were having a gay pride fest there. Stopped to groove on the music-they were playing Village People songs-dang toe-tapping stuff. Some stereotypes are true. "It's fun to stay at the Y-M-C-A, it's fun to stay at the Y-M-C-A." Ok try to get that song out of your head. earl

[Virtual_Cliff]

Sorry if that was a bit of a rough tackle, Tao. But I didn't have to look hard to see there was a personal issue at stake and I wanted to find out what it was.

I work in social housing and I know that kids are very often employed as runners for the drug dealers. Many of them end up as prostitutes or dealers or victims of gang violence. It's not nice. But it is not limited to gays, not by a long way. I can see you have your own cross to bear and I won't argue with that, but please don't let it blind you to the vast majority of gays that are just "normal" loving caring people, trying to make their way in an often hostile world.

On the question of whether religions have the right to criticise, I think they should look hard at their motivations. The major religions are centred around a directive to unconditional and inclusive love. Within Christianity the arguments against homosexuality are at least questionable. There are and have always been many gay Christians. The major religions are old and the concern over homosexuality as such is new.

With respect,
cliff

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Impqueen

I still have yet to see anyone forced to do anything against their morals though, they may have to close their adoption agencies in the face of the clash between their morals and the law, (a real shame of course) but they still have the choice.

Hi Impqueen

I am sorry but are you saying that you see "change your moral standards or close down" as a choice? So the choice is 'do something you dont want or do something you don't want'? What choice do the Catholic children have, who are currently in the adoption agencies if the agencies are forced to close? 40 years ago homosexuality was illegal in this country but the Catholic church has disagreed with homosexuality for rather longer than that. So why should a minority group force another minority group to change it's thinking?

I can give a number of instances where people are already being forced to do things against their morals. One example is a bed and breakfast (I think it was in Ireland but may be wrong) which was forced by law to accept gay couples. The reason the ownerss did not want to accept gay couples was because they are religious and have a 14 year old daughter in the house. The owners had stated that they did not want to have the "daddy why are 2 men sleeping together" conversation with their daughter, as she was being educated in a religious school and sex was not on the agenda (any type of sex). Obviously they had refused to accept a gay couple in their home and were promtly sued. So how is this right? It is not a big hotel but their own home, with their own child living there. So in order to protect the rights of a minority this couple can either accept something that goes against their morals and what they want their daughter to learn at her age or lose their livelihood. Which should it be?

Originally Posted by Impqueen

Democracy isn't perfect but it's a damn sight nearer than theocracy.

I thought democracy was all about choice, where is our choice to agree or disagree with homosexuality? We are in fact being legislated into agreeing, to providing services for homosexual people. For this to be fair then gay internet dating sites must be forced to cater to hetrosexuals, gay pride marches must be banned, in fact anything specifically gay must be stopped in order that all people are equal. Can you imagine if someone wanted to have a hetrosexual pride march, there would be hell on.

For me it isn't about who sleeps with who or what part of each others anatomy they deal with, I am simply not interested in other peoples private lives. What makes me angry is the double standard. It is like the word black in the 80's. We were no longer allowed to refer to coloured people as black, yet you could walk into any newsagents and buy the Black News.

Salaam
MW

[Impqueen]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I am sorry but are you saying that you see "change your moral standards or close down" as a choice? So the choice is 'do something you dont want or do something you don't want'? What choice do the Catholic children have, who are currently in the adoption agencies if the agencies are forced to close? 40 years ago homosexuality was illegal in this country but the Catholic church has disagreed with homosexuality for rather longer than that. So why should a minority group force another minority group to change it's thinking?

Which minority group is forcing them to make this choice? The government? In which case everyone who disagrees with them being forced to make the choice should be writing to their MP to give them their opinion, and in the future, not voting for those who voted against the get-out clause for the Chruch. This is a democracy. Our government decided on a law. If we disagree with the law then we have the opportunity to do something about it. Votes, letters, pressure groups.... no actually lets just sit around and whinge about it, that'll get things to change.... The government has to make law in line with the moral standards of this country (actually I think they should be making a lot less law about it) and a moral standard of this country is that there shall be no discrimination on the basis of age, race, sex, sexuality and religion. If a group wishes to have their own moral standards, outside of those standards existing in a country, then (though I agree within reason they should be allowed to) they have to be ready to catch some flak.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I can give a number of instances where people are already being forced to do things against their morals. One example is a bed and breakfast (I think it was in Ireland but may be wrong) which was forced by law to accept gay couples. The reason the ownerss did not want to accept gay couples was because they are religious and have a 14 year old daughter in the house. The owners had stated that they did not want to have the "daddy why are 2 men sleeping together" conversation with their daughter, as she was being educated in a religious school and sex was not on the agenda (any type of sex). Obviously they had refused to accept a gay couple in their home and were promtly sued. So how is this right? It is not a big hotel but their own home, with their own child living there. So in order to protect the rights of a minority this couple can either accept something that goes against their morals and what they want their daughter to learn at her age or lose their livelihood. Which should it be?

If they are keeping their daughter so cloistered from sexuality that at 14 they can't face having the 'some people go to bed with other people of their own sex' conversation then I suggest there will be trouble ahead. Seriously at fourteen no-one is talkin about sex at all? What does she think her periods are for?

Anyway all that is beside the point. I'm a bit torn on this one. I think people have every right to decide how they run their homes and businesses. But I think Gay people also have every right not to have to furtively look around for places they're 'allowed' to go. Are we going to have 'straights only' signs about the place? No I'd have to say, in this day and age if you can't cope with allowing Gay people to stay in your hotel you need to find another business. I'm sure when apartheid was stopped in SA some people closed businesses because they 'couldn't' cater to blacks.

And again they aren't being forced to do anything against their morals. Does it say in the bible (or anywhere) that you shouldn't give services to people who are gay? Or does it simply say that you shouldn't be gay yourself? People refusing service to gay people on the excuse of their religion are really doing it out of sheer dislike for gay people.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I thought democracy was all about choice, where is our choice to agree or disagree with homosexuality? We are in fact being legislated into agreeing, to providing services for homosexual people.

No-where does it say you can't disagree with homosexuality. There is no thought-crime law in this country (yet ). You don't have to agree with what someone does in the bedroom to provide them services. Besides which what they do in the bedroom (even if you've rented the room to them) is entirely their business.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

For this to be fair then gay internet dating sites must be forced to cater to hetrosexuals, gay pride marches must be banned, in fact anything specifically gay must be stopped in order that all people are equal.

Gay dating sites... well if I want to sell books I open a bookshop. If I want to sell cakes I open a cake shop. If I want to get a date with a woman, I go to a gay dating site. What's discriminatory about gay pride marches? I believe heteros can go on them to support their gay friends. Gay people have been oppressed for many years, now we are in a state of less discrimination, then of course there are going to be celebrations. And yes part of that is a big 'f you' to everyone who still hates them.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Can you imagine if someone wanted to have a hetrosexual pride march, there would be hell on.

Probably. What would be the reasoning behind a hetero march? If someone wants to do it, they should be able to. I won't be there.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

It is like the word black in the 80's. We were no longer allowed to refer to coloured people as black, yet you could walk into any newsagents and buy the Black News.

And now the pendulum there is settling back to the middle and we can use the word again. Gradually the gay one will too I suspect.

*sigh* I dislike the overly PC thing we get in this country at the moment. People should be allowed to say what they damn well please. But then they have to understand that if they offend someone that someone may argue with them. We have the right to free speech. We also have the right not to listen, to walk away.

[Tao_Equus]

And now the pendulum there is settling back to the middle and we can use the word again. Gradually the gay one will too I suspect.

You mean we can call them poofs again? Maybe then we can work on equal rights for beastiophiles and public masturbators?

[paul]

Originally Posted by Impqueen

And again they aren't being forced to do anything against their morals. Does it say in the bible (or anywhere) that you shouldn't give services to people who are gay? Or does it simply say that you shouldn't be gay yourself? People refusing service to gay people on the excuse of their religion are really doing it out of sheer dislike for gay people.

Then clearly you don't understand what is being said here and have no synpathy with people who deeply oppose such behaviour.

Such people wouldn't want a porn film to be shot in their premises either.

If people want people to provide services for such behaviour, we are talking of the behaviour here.
Then i think it only right when we talk of democracy that people should have the right what they want their services to be part of.

You have copyright on material which people may not want to be used in things they don't agree with.

People shouldn't have to use their property, or in any way have to be part of such behaviour, and it's not just the direct partaking of such behaviour themsleves, but to give your property, services, money or anything to such behaviour.
That i find is a deep crime and infringement against someones person.

You talk of freedom of people to do as they pleae, people can do as they like with their bodies, and property.

But if you use someone elses body or property against their will, you've taken away their freedom and not only taken away their freedom, but i beleive commited a crime against them.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Maybe then we can work on equal rights for beastiophiles and public masturbators?

Come on Tao, not everyone's Scottish.

s.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Come on Tao, not everyone's Scottish.

s.

Ahhhhh s**t... I've been outed!!!

[Snoopy]

Nice avatar.

s.