Religion as an excuse for war?

[JosephM]

Hello All,
As A. Khalil pointed out ...
It seems to me that if one looks closer, the majority of religions do indeed create an 'us' and a 'them', 'believers' and 'nonbelievers', 'believers' and 'infidels', 'the chosen' and the 'heathen', the 'saved' and the 'lost' etc. etc. even if it wasn't the original intent. Religion is created by man and does provoke separatism whereas true spirituality teaches unconditional love and acceptance of all. Yet, perhaps religion isn't creating an excuse for war but rather the people who want war find it convenient to use the tenets of religion to justify their actions. Both Muslims and Christians have used this in the past as history testifies though other religions have done the same.

Many religions also require proselytizing as one of their tenets whereas true spirituality doesn't force itself on anybody. Perhaps part of the problem is that many religions teach a God of emotions subject to anger, vengence, jealousy, hate and changing his mind whereas those are emotions of men and not of an unchanging mericiful and loving God whose essence is Love and peace. Can one who really believes God is a God of emotions found in men believe otherwise than that he is justified to kill under conditions he envisions God would not approve of? Such is the nature of religions who teach these things about God to men.

Just some thoughts to consider concerning this subject.

Love in Christ,
JM

[Seeker_of_truth]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Interestingly Islam is, doctrinally, one of the most inclusive of religions (the most, in the west, I think).

Mohammed (pbuh) ruled a difference between the 'infidel' or non-believer, and 'people of the book' - by which is commonly understood as Christian or Jew, and there are many instances of Islam protecting the people and holy places of other religious traditions.

It is widely accepted in Traditionalist circles that by 'people of the book' the Prophet meant all peoples who live according to the precepts of a Revealed or Scriptural tradition.

Further the Prophet said that although Islam is the Last Revelation and therefore the summation of all that has been revealed to man, that in no way was to the detriment of those religions, which still continue as, if one might use the Buddhist term 'upaya' or 'saving strategems' on the part of the Divine.

A notably example of this, historically, was when the First Crusade arrived in the Holy Land, Jew, Christian and Moslem were living quite happily side-by-side. The crusaders took the decision, to ensure the guilty might not escape justice, to slaughter everyone indescriminately.

If i may kindly disagree, the Prophet (pbuh) did not say that Islam was the last revelation, he said it was the last before judgement day. Big difference.

[Snoopy]

"a blistering polemic against organized religion and the part it plays in all the world's ills, especially war"

Amazon.co.uk: Christ Illusion: Parental Advisory: Music: Slayer

s.

[mee]

Originally Posted by poolking

Why do many countries use religion as an excuse for war?

It is far too easy in today's society to say "Im doing it in the name of religion."

So using religion as an excuse means it is okay to perpertrate some of the most heinous atrocities on the planet?

What do you think?

have a read of this link ,
The End of False Religion Is Near!

[The Jaded Fool]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Absolutely right! Some of the most fervent hardline fundamentalists are happy to quote Leviticus when it comes to homosexuality - but almost never do they consider themselves likewise condemned over issues such as stealing and adultery.

The hypocrisy does not stop there... Look at the whole of levitical law... The church as a whole picks and chooses which law that should be followed and which should not... it is amazing what we are capable of justifying... heh

Its all about the spin... at one point I was a master of the theological spin... which looking back now I realize was a form of deception and lying... My intentions were good... I thought I was showing them the way to salvation... I really thought I was doing the right thing... ack...

Peace

[mee]

Originally Posted by poolking

Why do many countries use religion as an excuse for war?

It is far too easy in today's society to say "Im doing it in the name of religion."

So using religion as an excuse means it is okay to perpertrate some of the most heinous atrocities on the planet?

What do you think?

2 timothy 3;5
having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.

[Netti-Netti]

Someone observed that the reason religion is invoked in connection with war is that it's hard to argue with it. Basically, it's like capitalizing on the dogmatic aspects as well as the strength of people's convictions and commitments.

A very insidious form of propaganda. A sure sign of evil.

[manytrailsonepath]

Just my opinion but I don't think there is ever a really good reason for war. I was raised Baptist and always found it hard to swallow when someone like a pastor or an older family member would condone war or war like actions and often attribute it to "the glory of God". I am not the most well versed in Christian scripture but I do remember somewhere in the Christian bible a passage that said something along the lines of - all ye nations of the world learn to war no more , but love one another-. Also I believe one of the ten commandments is very plainly "thou shalt not kill". I don't remember a claus in there that gave any exception. So I guess from my humble, and less informed than the average person, opinion it doesn't seem justifiable, but having studied history it seems common place to use religion as a reason (not just Christianity). I would have to agree with the previous post by Netti a sure sign of evil and in my opinion a contradiction, based on my knowledge of religions (which may be insufficient).

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by manytrailsonepath

Just my opinion but I don't think there is ever a really good reason for war. I was raised Baptist and always found it hard to swallow when someone like a pastor or an older family member would condone war or war like actions and often attribute it to "the glory of God". I am not the most well versed in Christian scripture but I do remember somewhere in the Christian bible a passage that said something along the lines of - all ye nations of the world learn to war no more , but love one another-. Also I believe one of the ten commandments is very plainly "thou shalt not kill". I don't remember a claus in there that gave any exception. So I guess from my humble, and less informed than the average person, opinion it doesn't seem justifiable, but having studied history it seems common place to use religion as a reason (not just Christianity). I would have to agree with the previous post by Netti a sure sign of evil and in my opinion a contradiction, based on my knowledge of religions (which may be insufficient).

I abhore war. Yet war is a reality, because there are others who wish to revoke your rights, in order to control you, your way of thinking and your way of praying to your version of God. Or, they want what you have. Or they simply hate what you stand for, and want you erradicated.

Maybe that's why Jesus asked the Father to forgive man, for they know not what they are doing.

As an aside, you might consider reading Deuterotamy, and the book of Joshua, as well as the stories of David...it seems that God smiles upon the good and faithful servant, even in acts of war, and taking war to the enemy, when one's survival is at stake...

v/r

Q

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I abhore war. Yet war is a reality, because there are others who wish to revoke your rights, in order to control you, your way of thinking and your way of praying to your version of God. Or, they want what you have. Or they simply hate what you stand for, and want you erradicated.

Was that a quote from a Palestinian moved from his home to a tent in 1947?

Or was that from a North American march of natives that were in the way of manifest destiny?

Or could it be from an Iraqi today?

Or maybe a tori when 10% of the colonies decided to become terrorists, treasonist traitors to the crown?

Nothing against you Q, but who is right in war depends on the side you are on.

But war is really a choice, we've never really tried peace. We'll give war the work over every decade someplace but if we attempted peace...oh that Jesus guy again, love your enemies, turn the other cheek for forgive 7x70 for a hundred years or so we might see a largely different world. And if it cost us a few million lives in the experiment, that would be much less then the tens of millions we kill every century with today's methods.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Was that a quote from a Palestinian moved from his home to a tent in 1947?

Or was that from a North American march of natives that were in the way of manifest destiny?

Or could it be from an Iraqi today?

Or maybe a tori when 10% of the colonies decided to become terrorists, treasonist traitors to the crown?

Nothing against you Q, but who is right in war depends on the side you are on.

But war is really a choice, we've never really tried peace. We'll give war the work over every decade someplace but if we attempted peace...oh that Jesus guy again, love your enemies, turn the other cheek for forgive 7x70 for a hundred years or so we might see a largely different world. And if it cost us a few million lives in the experiment, that would be much less then the tens of millions we kill every century with today's methods.

I suppose the Jews could have said the same thing circa 75 AD when the Romans scattered them from their homeland and gave it to the local natives and called them "palestinians", as a joke.

There were many native American tribes that welcomed the white settlers. But there were a select few that made life hell (just like they did with their native American neighbors), and people got ticked off. (not to dismiss the idiocy of whites who thought of natives as little more than vermin).

Iraq has yet to totally unveil itself...just wait.

Franklin was asked by the people "what kind of government do we have?" His reply: "A republic...if you can keep it."

No offense to you either Wil, but I know what I do not want, what I was born into, and what I want to keep, for you, for me, for our children, and their children...and I put on the uniform to help keep it that way. Some one has to do it, and I stepped up to volunteer, that is me and 2,000,000 other citizens who thought that was our calling. Of course we think (for the most part) God is on our side. To try and take that away from the soldier/sailor/airman would be to try and demoralize your own military.

War is a choice? Yes, the option is to let it be and let the aggressor think they can walk roughshod over us. Or one can try to negotiate (I think that was done prior to the invasion of Afghanistan, to which we were told we'd be buried by the glory of Allah)...so much for negotiation. The Iraqi war started in 1987 with the bombing of the USS Stark (totally unprovoked).

Jesus is talking on a personal level about forgiveness. And for the most part if taken to heart it works. But not everyone is Christian, and we still must answer the call to defend our citizens and nation, despite what our representitives believe.

Speaking of which, that is where our ultimate responsibility lies...electing the right representitives, instead of being too damn busy with our own personal lives and woes, to worry about who we put in office...

The fault ultimately lies with "we the citizens of these United States".

So busy to worry about who we put in office, but so damn quick to criticize our own foolish choices of who leads us.

That is the bottom line.

v/r

Q

[manytrailsonepath]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I abhore war. Yet war is a reality, because there are others who wish to revoke your rights, in order to control you, your way of thinking and your way of praying to your version of God. Or, they want what you have. Or they simply hate what you stand for, and want you erradicated.

Maybe that's why Jesus asked the Father to forgive man, for they know not what they are doing.

As an aside, you might consider reading Deuterotamy, and the book of Joshua, as well as the stories of David...it seems that God smiles upon the good and faithful servant, even in acts of war, and taking war to the enemy, when one's survival is at stake...

v/r

Q

I certainly don't want to de-moralize our (U.S.) troops. I am very thankful for the many freedoms they provide me, I do admit that it is hard for me to feel deserving of those freedoms when they come at the cost of the lives of others no matter how wrong or right they may be. I have read the book of Joshua (it is my name in fact) and as I recall (it has been years) God actually spoke to Joshua and told him to make war on Jericho (spelling?). I haven't heard any rumors of God speaking to congress or the Bush administration. But when it all comes down to it I really don't consider myself informed well enough of anything to make judgements that involve the taking of lives, heck I'm too much of a wuss to even go hunting anyway. I am also glad that the powers that be make those decisions so that they don't come home to me and mine. But it still makes me feel un-deserving of the sheltered life that I have here in the U.S. when I stop and think about the people (on both sides) that die or have died to provide that. In short I guess I'm a dreamer who just wishes we as humans never learned how to kill. In regards to Deuteronomy I plead ignorance and certainly will check it out, thank you for the insight Q. This is an issue that has always been a "thorn in my side" that I am always to lazy/busy to really get un-cought up in life and really explore.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by manytrailsonepath

I certainly don't want to de-moralize our (U.S.) troops. I am very thankful for the many freedoms they provide me, I do admit that it is hard for me to feel deserving of those freedoms when they come at the cost of the lives of others no matter how wrong or right they may be. I have read the book of Joshua (it is my name in fact) and as I recall (it has been years) God actually spoke to Joshua and told him to make war on Jericho (spelling?). I haven't heard any rumors of God speaking to congress or the Bush administration. But when it all comes down to it I really don't consider myself informed well enough of anything to make judgements that involve the taking of lives, heck I'm too much of a wuss to even go hunting anyway. I am also glad that the powers that be make those decisions so that they don't come home to me and mine. But it still makes me feel un-deserving of the sheltered life that I have here in the U.S. when I stop and think about the people (on both sides) that die or have died to provide that. In short I guess I'm a dreamer who just wishes we as humans never learned how to kill. In regards to Deuteronomy I plead ignorance and certainly will check it out, thank you for the insight Q. This is an issue that has always been a "thorn in my side" that I am always to lazy/busy to really get un-cought up in life and really explore.

I did not imply that you did. What I will point out is the torn decisions that we have to make (here in America). We the citizens hate war. Ok? We hate war. But once committed, we are the most dangerous people on earth. Maybe that is what you and Wil are worried about. How can I say that? Simple, we are the only people on earth to ever drop an atomic bomb...twice, with no warning.

Everyone else threatens, and uses God as their backup (God will propel us forward). Last I checked, the US was the only nation to unleash "God's" power, for good cause (we thought). And it caused over 140,000 immediate deaths...

I'd say we are a force to be reckoned with, and so far, God hasn't punished us for our choices.

I also think we are stupid, considering that we lost more people in 9-11 than in World War II's Pearl Harbor, and our citizens are lack luster in the danger that is at our front door...

Mark my words, our time of testing is come, and 2,000,000 military is not enough. Every citizen's contribution is going to be required.

Right now, we are living on borrowed grace...

v/r

Q

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I also think we are stupid, considering that we lost more people in 9-11 than in World War II's Pearl Harbor, and our citizens are lack luster in the danger that is at our front door...

Interesting, yet those folks weren't raised, trained or funded in or by Iraq, not one of them, nor their leaders, yet that is where we've killed hundreds of thousands and spent trillions, I agree we are stupid.

Where were they from, why that same country that refuses to increase oil production, we call it Saudi Arabia, our friends, interesting.

I still say that on 9/12 if we'd have said, we have 1 billion dollars to support the capture and trial of the guilty parties the world would have found and turned in Osama quite quickly, as no country was really behind this, simply a radical organization, a snake we've spent 7 years attacking and succeeded only in creating many more little snakes.

All I am saying, if my contention was correct to date we'd have saved 299 billion dollars which could be used for all sorts of good around the world, probably not have an oil crisis right now...but we can't prove or disprove any of it, because we refuse to....give peace a chance..

Why does the US refuse to use the international court?? Because we know if we initiate that on ANYONE, that same court will try our Presidents and Generals who are guilty of 'preemptive strikes' and lying to get the US congress and population behind an illegitimate war. One who most of our public does think is against Muslims, (otherwise why would we paint Obama with negative rhetoric in the same regard??)

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Interesting, yet those folks weren't raised, trained or funded in or by Iraq, not one of them, nor their leaders, yet that is where we've killed hundreds of thousands and spent trillions, I agree we are stupid.

Where were they from, why that same country that refuses to increase oil production, we call it Saudi Arabia, our friends, interesting.

I still say that on 9/12 if we'd have said, we have 1 billion dollars to support the capture and trial of the guilty parties the world would have found and turned in Osama quite quickly, as no country was really behind this, simply a radical organization, a snake we've spent 7 years attacking and succeeded only in creating many more little snakes.

All I am saying, if my contention was correct to date we'd have saved 299 billion dollars which could be used for all sorts of good around the world, probably not have an oil crisis right now...but we can't prove or disprove any of it, because we refuse to....give peace a chance..

Why does the US refuse to use the international court?? Because we know if we initiate that on ANYONE, that same court will try our Presidents and Generals who are guilty of 'preemptive strikes' and lying to get the US congress and population behind an illegitimate war. One who most of our public does think is against Muslims, (otherwise why would we paint Obama with negative rhetoric in the same regard??)

I find your reasoning, frankly, unreasonable. We do not adhere to the world court for a simple reason...it violates our Constitution Wil. You may be willing to give up our constitution for security. I however, do not.

And I refuse to allow the international crap judge my countrymen. Yes it is crap. It is godless. At least this country has a vestige of God and concscience. European governments have no such claim. (not accusing the populace of Europe).

And I can't stand the loss of "memory" by Europe, of the good this simple country did for them. If it weren't for the US, there would be no Europe that you so admire...that is a flat fact.