Religion as an excuse for war?

[QueryGuy]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Which obviously from common sense cannot be challenged indeed as a lawful reason to go to war. Just like the principle of self-defense in using violence against an unjust assailant.

Here is my question to QueryGuy, how do Baha'ists solve that kind of a quandary, considering that their founder abjures war altogether.

Honestly, the only viable alternative in defense of the religion--without violating its precepts--is passive resistance. Have you seen the movie Gandhi? Something like that.

Baha'u'llah envisioned a federated world government (i.e. a united world in which all nations retain their sovereignity, but are answerable to a central government entity like the U.N. or whatnot.) The only warfare Baha'u'llah deems permissable is against rogue nations that would disrupt this unity by instigating a war. Even then, the goal is to keep order. Baha'is are forbidden to proselytize or impose their religion on others, so it's not like they'd go to war to convert others.

Anything in between really isn't covered in Baha'i writings. Prior to a world federation, if Baha'is become a majority in a nation and the nation is attacked on religious grounds (i.e. to remove those "heathen infidel Baha'is" ), I'm not sure it how it would be handled. No doubt the nation could use any excuse it wanted to retaliate, but they could not do so on strictly religious grounds without going against Baha'u'llah's teachings.



QG

[Postmaster]

Even from the times when religions were being created, you find that religion and politics went hand in hand..

[Sacredstar]

sad but true PM wonder what will happen when the Beast Movie comes out....and the masses find out about the politics behind religion. I was shocked to discover that the maker is a Christian Fundamentalist who discovered the truth....

Sacredstar

[Postmaster]

Someone falls in love with you but you don't feel the same, would you forcibly return the love so you don't break her heart? Or do tell the truth and break away?

We live in a cursed world but in an equally divine world. Curse and divinity go hand in hand. That’s way there is such a contradiction in religion with politics because frankly that’s they way the cookie crumbles. Both might be totally contradicting opposite things, yet look at them closely and they will appear as the same thing. Its down to the will of the person in the way he acts and thinks. However half of our actions and thoughts are also not are own.

[Sacredstar]

Dear PM

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Someone falls in love with you but you don't feel the same, would you forcibly return the love so you don't break her heart? Or do tell the truth and break away?

In my younger years I would do things detrimental to the self to avoid hurting others. But after I healed myself I could never betray my own soul or the other soul by not living in integrity and transparency.

Originally Posted by Postmaster

We live in a cursed world but in an equally divine world. Curse and divinity go hand in hand. That’s way there is such a contradiction in religion with politics because frankly that’s they way the cookie crumbles. Both might be totally contradicting opposite things, yet look at them closely and they will appear as the same thing. Its down to the will of the person in the way he acts and thinks. However half of our actions and thoughts are also not are own.

Well from my perspective it is only a cursed world because humans make it so, but then again when we take off the dark glasses it is a beautiful world for beauty truly is in the eye of beholder.

When humans align their human self with their divine self then they become human beings e.g. spiritual beings having a human experience instead of humans looking outside of the self for happiness.

Onwards and upwards

Sacredstar

[Faithfulservant]

Hello another old thread

Susma wrote:
"Jesus on the contrary says something like "I have come to bring war between a brother and a brother... and a man's enemies will be members of his household." Something like that...
I guess this line has been interpreted by Christians as to mean that one can defend his Christian faith even by going to war. It's like Christians telling the world, "Excuse us from staying peaceful, we have to go to war to defend our faith."

Harmony gave a scripture but I think that these are the ones Susma was referring too..

Matthew 10:21 Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 10:34-36 Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'

Christ teaches us to FLEE not to engage in war. "When they persecute you in this city, flee to another."

Christ also teaches that he is the bringer of division and not the bringer of peace. He TEACHES peace but he will not be the cause of it because Christians will be persecuted in his name. Any wars in the name of Christianity are very anti-christian. He literally means for us to turn the other cheek and forgive 7 times 77.

Faithful Servant

[Postmaster]

sacredstar, very wise words, I appreciate

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Hello another old thread

Susma wrote:
"Jesus on the contrary says something like "I have come to bring war between a brother and a brother... and a man's enemies will be members of his household." Something like that...
I guess this line has been interpreted by Christians as to mean that one can defend his Christian faith even by going to war. It's like Christians telling the world, "Excuse us from staying peaceful, we have to go to war to defend our faith."

Harmony gave a scripture but I think that these are the ones Susma was referring too..

Matthew 10:21 Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 10:34-36 Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'

Christ teaches us to FLEE not to engage in war. "When they persecute you in this city, flee to another."

Christ also teaches that he is the bringer of division and not the bringer of peace. He TEACHES peace but he will not be the cause of it because Christians will be persecuted in his name. Any wars in the name of Christianity are very anti-christian. He literally means for us to turn the other cheek and forgive 7 times 77.

Faithful Servant

Wasn't all this in the context that any man who loves another more than God shall lose all? In the end times it is clear that man will become more and more a lover of self. One can not put one's spiritual salvation into the hands of another human being. The result is invariably failure, which results in resentment and eventually hatred.

Also, there is a big difference between persecution and war. To fight a holy war would be un-Christian. A secular war is not quite the same. A war to stop the persecution of others is not the same.

Romans 13:1-5 (RSV):
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
4 For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

I can pull many paragraphs from the Old and New testament that justify one righteous nation going against an unrighteous one. In fact the Bible is explicit in instructions on how to pick the soldiers, officers and Generals, how they are to be divisioned, how to lay seige to a city, and what not to do. There are rules of conduct that the righteous nation's armies must adhere to, else lose the grace of God.

One might say that war is from the old testament times. I agree completely. That does not mean we should forget how to wage it, because regardless of some of humanity's enlightened state, the rest of the world is still living in the Old Testatment ways.

What is worse than an evil man? A good man who does nothing to stop evil.

v/r

Q

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Wasn't all this in the context that any man who loves another more than God shall lose all? In the end times it is clear that man will become more and more a lover of self. One can not put one's spiritual salvation into the hands of another human being. The result is invariably failure, which results in resentment and eventually hatred.

Also, there is a big difference between persecution and war. To fight a holy war would be un-Christian. A secular war is not quite the same. A war to stop the persecution of others is not the same.

Romans 13:1-5 (RSV):
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
4 For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

I can pull many paragraphs from the Old and New testament that justify one righteous nation going against an unrighteous one. In fact the Bible is explicit in instructions on how to pick the soldiers, officers and Generals, how they are to be divisioned, how to lay seige to a city, and what not to do. There are rules of conduct that the righteous nation's armies must adhere to, else lose the grace of God.

One might say that war is from the old testament times. I agree completely. That does not mean we should forget how to wage it, because regardless of some of humanity's enlightened state, the rest of the world is still living in the Old Testatment ways.

What is worse than an evil man? A good man who does nothing to stop evil.

v/r

Q

You are right. Thank you for pointing that out.. Sometimes its hard for me to discern the cause of war whether its for personal or supposed holy reasons. Too many times I feel we are subject to the rule of other people not led by Gods dictate. Who.. in these times... is the righteous and who is the unrighteous. I am voicing my doubts in these perilous times but my faith stands true that God knows the final outcome and has set forth his will upon men.

Faithful Servant

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

You are right. Thank you for pointing that out.. Sometimes its hard for me to discern the cause of war whether its for personal or supposed holy reasons. Too many times I feel we are subject to the rule of other people not led by Gods dictate. Who.. in these times... is the righteous and who is the unrighteous. I am voicing my doubts in these perilous times but my faith stands true that God knows the final outcome and has set forth his will upon men.

Faithful Servant

Good evening Faithful,

Based on your own declaration then, you must trust that the nations' leaders, are in position to lead, because GOD placed them there. Obviously He has good reason to have the leaders of the world in the positions they now hold. He also tells us to PRAY, PRAY, PRAY for these leaders. "...pray unceasingly...". That is a hard thing to do, because our own lives get in the way, with all its distractions, and responsibilities (that we keep forgetting we should be giving it all to GOD as well, instead we keep taking it back...ah, human nature to worry).

I just thought of something based on an oldy but goody song. We can dance, we can dance with the devil from time to time in our life, and may have no choice on occasion, but we are to save the last dance for our love, that is for GOD. That is all that matters, because the last dance is eternal...

v/r

Q

[Faithfulservant]

Thank you for this reminder

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Thank you for this reminder

No, thankyou for making me remember...

v/r

Q

[Blue]

A personal opinion on this thread:

Firstly, War has been waged in the name of many religions.
Secondly,even the latest conflict in Iraq consisted of soldiers being sent into war in 'God's name'. This also happens and has happened for hundreds/thousands of years.

That religion can be used as an excuse for war, is wholly dishonest.

Surely no one here can think there is such a thing as a Holy War?

One's faith is a personal matter between yourself and your conceived 'God' or 'gods'.
It has nothing to do with doctrines and dogmas passed down to a person through the powerful authorities of churches or politicians.

As Jesus of Nazereth pointed out, your Faith is in your heart... it is your personal commitment.

Do not all the Faiths say similar?

It is the organisers and authorities, who proselytise religions and ally themselves with secular power bases, and politicians, who USE the natural spirituality of individuals to help promote their causes.

To put it bluntly, these people are 'users'.

Theocracies incidentally, on the evidence, have the worst record historically for fighting horrible, cruel and disgusting 'Wars'.

Remember the original American Constitution? There is no place for religious faith in political Government and there should be freedom to worship in any way one sees fit.

[Faithfulservant]

Its always strange to me how people quote the scriptures to their own end and they dont know what its talking about..

Originally Posted by Archangel

Here is one often used in history to condone war:

Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood. Jeremiah 48:10

The book of Jeremiah is a prophetic book and this sections is declaring what will happen if Moab doesnt destroy the egyptians.. . Its God speaking to his people and having to put up with their rebellion. The OT is God dealing with Israel. Revelations Is the conclusion of God dealing with Israel. let me help you out by posting the scriptures before and after lol

1 Against Moab. Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: "Woe to Nebo! For it is plundered, Kirjathaim is shamed and taken; The high stronghold* is shamed and dismayed-- 2 No more praise of Moab. In Heshbon they have devised evil against her: 'Come, and let us cut her off as a nation.' You also shall be cut down, O Madmen! The sword shall pursue you; 3 A voice of crying shall be from Horonaim: 'Plundering and great destruction!' 4 "Moab is destroyed; Her little ones have caused a cry to be heard; 5 For in the Ascent of Luhith they ascend with continual weeping; For in the descent of Horonaim the enemies have heard a cry of destruction. 6 "Flee, save your lives! And be like the juniper in the wilderness. 7 For because you have trusted in your works and your treasures, You also shall be taken. And Chemosh shall go forth into captivity, His priests and his princes together. 8 And the plunderer shall come against every city; No one shall escape. The valley also shall perish, And the plain shall be destroyed, As the Lord has spoken. 9 "Give wings to Moab, That she may flee and get away; For her cities shall be desolate, Without any to dwell in them. 10 Cursed is he who does the work of the Lord deceitfully, And cursed is he who keeps back his sword from blood. 11 "Moab has been at ease from his youth; He has settled on his dregs, And has not been emptied from vessel to vessel, Nor has he gone into captivity. Therefore his taste remained in him, And his scent has not changed. 12 "Therefore behold, the days are coming," says the Lord, "That I shall send him wine-workers Who will tip him over And empty his vessels And break the bottles. 13 Moab shall be ashamed of Chemosh, As the house of Israel was ashamed of Bethel, their confidence. 14 "How can you say, 'We are mighty And strong men for the war'? 15 Moab is plundered and gone up from her cities; Her chosen young men have gone down to the slaughter," says the King, Whose name is the Lord of hosts. 16 "The calamity of Moab is near at hand, And his affliction comes quickly. 17 Bemoan him, all you who are around him; And all you who know his name, Say, 'How the strong staff is broken, The beautiful rod!' 18 "O daughter inhabiting Dibon, Come down from your glory, And sit in thirst; For the plunderer of Moab has come against you, He has destroyed your strongholds. 19 O inhabitant of Aroer, Stand by the way and watch; Ask him who flees And her who escapes; Say, 'What has happened?' 20 Moab is shamed, for he is broken down. Wail and cry! Tell it in Arnon, that Moab is plundered. 21 "And judgment has come on the plain country: On Holon and Jahzah and Mephaath, 22 On Dibon and Nebo and Beth Diblathaim, 23 On Kirjathaim and Beth Gamul and Beth Meon, 24 On Kerioth and Bozrah, On all the cities of the land of Moab, Far or near. 25 The horn of Moab is cut off, And his arm is broken," says the Lord. 26 "Make him drunk, Because he exalted himself against the Lord. Moab shall wallow in his vomit, And he shall also be in derision. 27 For was not Israel a derision to you? Was he found among thieves? For whenever you speak of him, You shake your head in scorn. 28 You who dwell in Moab, Leave the cities and dwell in the rock, And be like the dove which makes her nest In the sides of the cave's mouth. 29 "We have heard the pride of Moab (He is exceedingly proud), Of his loftiness and arrogance and pride, And of the haughtiness of his heart." 30 "I know his wrath," says the Lord, "But it is not right; His lies have made nothing right. 31 Therefore I will wail for Moab, And I will cry out for all Moab; I will mourn for the men of Kir Heres. 32 O vine of Sibmah! I will weep for you with the weeping of Jazer. Your plants have gone over the sea, They reach to the sea of Jazer. The plunderer has fallen on your summer fruit and your vintage. 33 Joy and gladness are taken From the plentiful field And from the land of Moab; I have caused wine to fail from the winepresses; No one will tread with joyous shouting-- Not joyous shouting! 34 "From the cry of Heshbon to Elealeh and to Jahaz They have uttered their voice, From Zoar to Horonaim, Like a three-year-old heifer; F53 For the waters of Nimrim also shall be desolate. 35 "Moreover," says the Lord, "I will cause to cease in Moab The one who offers sacrifices in the high places And burns incense to his gods. 36 Therefore My heart shall wail like flutes for Moab, And like flutes My heart shall wail For the men of Kir Heres. Therefore the riches they have acquired have perished. 37 "For every head shall be bald, and every beard clipped; On all the hands shall be cuts, and on the loins sackcloth-- 38 A general lamentation On all the housetops of Moab, And in its streets; For I have broken Moab like a vessel in which is no pleasure," says the Lord. 39 "They shall wail: 'How she is broken down! How Moab has turned her back with shame!' So Moab shall be a derision And a dismay to all those about her." 40 For thus says the Lord: "Behold, one shall fly like an eagle, And spread his wings over Moab. 41 Kerioth is taken, And the strongholds are surprised; The mighty men's hearts in Moab on that day shall be Like the heart of a woman in birth pangs. 42 And Moab shall be destroyed as a people, Because he exalted himself against the Lord. 43 Fear and the pit and the snare shall be upon you, O inhabitant of Moab," says the Lord. 44 "He who flees from the fear shall fall into the pit, And he who gets out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For upon Moab, upon it I will bring The year of their punishment," says the Lord. 45 "Those who fled stood under the shadow of Heshbon Because of exhaustion. But a fire shall come out of Heshbon, A flame from the midst of Sihon, And shall devour the brow of Moab, The crown of the head of the sons of tumult. 46 Woe to you, O Moab! The people of Chemosh perish; For your sons have been taken captive, And your daughters captive. 47 "Yet I will bring back the captives of Moab In the latter days," says the Lord. Thus far is the judgment of Moab.

[Faithfulservant]

I respect that you have your opinion Blue but you have shown that you dont know anything about my faith except what you've read from someone I consider unqualified to comment.

Good Day
Faithful Servant

Originally Posted by Blue

A personal opinion on this thread:

Firstly, War has been waged in the name of many religions.
Secondly,even the latest conflict in Iraq consisted of soldiers being sent into war in 'God's name'. This also happens and has happened for hundreds/thousands of years.

That religion can be used as an excuse for war, is wholly dishonest.

Surely no one here can think there is such a thing as a Holy War?

One's faith is a personal matter between yourself and your conceived 'God' or 'gods'.
It has nothing to do with doctrines and dogmas passed down to a person through the powerful authorities of churches or politicians.

As Jesus of Nazereth pointed out, your Faith is in your heart... it is your personal commitment.

Do not all the Faiths say similar?

It is the organisers and authorities, who proselytise religions and ally themselves with secular power bases, and politicians, who USE the natural spirituality of individuals to help promote their causes.

To put it bluntly, these people are 'users'.

Theocracies incidentally, on the evidence, have the worst record historically for fighting horrible, cruel and disgusting 'Wars'.

Remember the original American Constitution? There is no place for religious faith in political Government and there should be freedom to worship in any way one sees fit.