Religion as an excuse for war?

[qiatsu]

The older people say that you, the coming generation, must create a different world, but they don't mean it at all. On the contrary, with great thought and care they set about 'educating' you to conform to the old pattern, with some modification. Though they may talk very differently, teachers and parents, supported by the government and society in general, see to it that you are trained to conform to tradition, to accept ambition and envy as the natural way of life. They are not at all concerned with a new way of life, and that is why the educator himself is not being rightly educated. The older generation has brought about this world of war, this world of antagonism and division between man and man; and the newer generation is following sedulously in its footsteps. "But we want to be rightly educated, sir. What shall we do?" First of all, see very clearly one simple fact: that neither the government, nor your present teachers, nor your parents, care to educate you rightly; if they did, the world would be entirely different, and there would be no wars. So if you want to be rightly educated, you have to set about it yourself; and when you are grown up, you will then see to it that your own children are rightly educated. "But how can we rightly educate ourselves? We need someone to teach us." You have teachers to instruct you in mathematics, in literature, and so on; but education is something deeper and wider than the mere gathering of information. Education is the cultivation of the mind so that action is not self-centered; it is learning throughout life to break down the walls which the mind builds in order to be secure, and from which arises fear with all its complexities. To be rightly educated, you have to study hard and not be lazy. Be good at games, not to beat another, but to amuse yourself. Eat the right food, and keep physically fit. Let the mind be alert and capable of dealing with the problems of life, not as a Hindu, a Communist, or a Christian, but as a human being. To be rightly educated, you have to understand yourself; you have to keep on learning about yourself. When you stop learning, life becomes ugly and sorrowful. Without goodness and love, you are not rightly educated.

[I, Brian]

Good posts, qiatsu - thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[Quahom1]

I find it ironic that when a man (or group of individuals) feel "insecure" in their own belief system, that he/they feel the need to resort to "convincing" others to comply/come along with their way of thinking. When the "others" decline, war always appears to be inevitable.

I am also intrigued by the observation that it is usually the "reluctant warriors/the people who wish the peace of solitude", who ultimately defeat the "insecure". These people are usually "secure" in their own beliefs. And remain civilized (that is to say they look after folks first, before looking after selves).

But - it is far easier for a civilized man to behave as a barbarian, than it is for a barbarian to behave as a civilized man. And unlike the dead barbarian, the civilized man will suffer the rest of his life with the guilt of knowing that he gave into his baser instincts.

I'll stop here, before I run off in 50,000 directions on this issue of war, and religion.

Peace.

[Quahom1]

I find it ironic that when a man (or group of individuals) feel "insecure" in their own belief system, that he/they feel the need to resort to "convincing" others to comply/come along with their way of thinking. When the "others" decline, war always appears to be inevitable.

I am also intrigued by the observation that it is usually the "reluctant warriors/the people who wish the peace of solitude", who ultimately defeat the "insecure". These people are usually "secure" in their own beliefs. And remain civilized (that is to say they look after folks first, before looking after selves).

But - it is far easier for a civilized man to behave as a barbarian, than it is for a barbarian to behave as a civilized man. And unlike the dead barbarian, the civilized man will suffer the rest of his life with the guilt of knowing that he gave into his baser instincts.

I'll stop here, before I run off in 50,000 directions on this issue of war, and religion.

Peace.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by poolking

Why do many countries use religion as an excuse for war?

It is far too easy in today's society to say "Im doing it in the name of religion."

So using religion as an excuse means it is okay to perpertrate some of the most heinous atrocities on the planet?

What do you think?

Being that religion is a manmade institution, a dogmafacation (wonder if I could submit that one to Webster for consideration), of a wonderous but elusive concept of communicating (walking) with God, and subject to human corruption at every point, it is no wonder that the "Carpenter" called Jesus hated it so. In fact He was very poignant on His thoughts of religion. The only form of religion He approved of was "The taking care of orphans and widows". I believe that His thoughts were if we were so busy religiously dealing with that situation, we would be totally focused on love for others, and not fixated on the pseudo political/religous power base we humans seem to thrive on (which of course has abosolutely zero percent nutritional value for our "immortal souls"). Kind of like junk candy, or wormwood...sweet to the tongue, but sours the stomach.

my two cents worth...

peace

[Anzac]

qiatsu has it spot on for me - that is exactly the crisis, we all fight for institutions whereas we shouldn't be fighting for anything in the first place (well, in the sense of people killing people).

As for war and religion - this to me is a seemingly strong argument that God can never want you to kill another human being no matter what has become of a situation. With God on both sides surely there should be no conflict in the first place? Why people fight - religion, land and money. Religion is used as an excuse for land as the current everlasting middle eastern crisis proves. Thousands die, are displaced and live lives full of hate for who owns which bit of land. People are infinitely more valuable than any land could ever be so why die for earth?

In truth the only religion that can logically exist is that which has no masters as that way there is no one to limit your free will yet you do not impede on anothers. Religion (anyone seen "The Man Who Would Be King"? as that to me sums up the whole ideology of religious origins) is there to control and to limit and to expand so everyone falls under the same blanket. The concept of a religious war whether it be a Jihad or a Crusade, to me it is exactly the opposite of what religion supposedly stands for and marks. People need to face up to the fact that we are not placed here for money, wealth, land, power and dominance, but to exist. As qiatsu rightly said, if we carry on down this path we'll still be in the same hole we've been in for generations. Except now we can murder each other from the comfort of our homes in a future "Armchair Armageddon". Why does no one sit down and say "Is it really worth wasting so much of our kin for blocks of stone and grass". No matter the symbolism, surely no God would wish for each and every one of his followers to die for it. If God is the creator then willing the destruction of everything beneath their path is an oxymoron for everything they idealise.

[JJM]

Originally Posted by Anzac

qiatsu has it spot on for me - that is exactly the crisis, we all fight for institutions whereas we shouldn't be fighting for anything in the first place (well, in the sense of people killing people).

As for war and religion - this to me is a seemingly strong argument that God can never want you to kill another human being no matter what has become of a situation. With God on both sides surely there should be no conflict in the first place? Why people fight - religion, land and money. Religion is used as an excuse for land as the current everlasting middle eastern crisis proves. Thousands die, are displaced and live lives full of hate for who owns which bit of land. People are infinitely more valuable than any land could ever be so why die for earth?

In truth the only religion that can logically exist is that which has no masters as that way there is no one to limit your free will yet you do not impede on anothers. Religion (anyone seen "The Man Who Would Be King"? as that to me sums up the whole ideology of religious origins) is there to control and to limit and to expand so everyone falls under the same blanket. The concept of a religious war whether it be a Jihad or a Crusade, to me it is exactly the opposite of what religion supposedly stands for and marks. People need to face up to the fact that we are not placed here for money, wealth, land, power and dominance, but to exist. As qiatsu rightly said, if we carry on down this path we'll still be in the same hole we've been in for generations. Except now we can murder each other from the comfort of our homes in a future "Armchair Armageddon". Why does no one sit down and say "Is it really worth wasting so much of our kin for blocks of stone and grass". No matter the symbolism, surely no God would wish for each and every one of his followers to die for it. If God is the creator then willing the destruction of everything beneath their path is an oxymoron for everything they idealise.

I agree with the majority of what you have written. I have one discrepancy while I don't think Gods wants anyone to kill someone for peaty reasons I think that there is one expectable time for the killing of another human being and that is to protect an innocent human being from what he might do. Thus the one time I think wars over religion should be fought is wars over religious oppression. That is the time when it makes sense to me. Another time if you are aloud to worship freely then there is no point in war. I think that there is 4 excitable reasons for joining a war: 1. a stronger Country protects a smaller one, 2.to free a people that are oppressed by an unjust ruler, 3. if a Country A is holding or have wronged a citizen from Country B and 4. To stop a reasonable threat From County A to country B. just my thoughts.

__________________________________________________ _____
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates

[Anzac]

Originally Posted by JJM

I have one discrepancy while I don't think Gods wants anyone to kill someone for peaty reasons I think that there is one expectable time for the killing of another human being and that is to protect an innocent human being from what he might do.

I personally don't agree with the idea of killing another human being in any context - it's self-defeating. When you mention it to everyone they agree with it - so why do wars happen? Because everyone talks about defence and stopping people killing by killing but it all turns into one vicious circle.

Look at the lastest war on Iraq - pre-empitve strike with no truly justified (personally I don't see why there would ever be one, but still) reason yet the war went ahead. The excuse of an evil dictator and weapons of mass destruction are really no excuses. There is no justification as the US and UK have huge arsenals of nuclear and biological weapons yet you don't see Italy or another country invading because they might use them. Then it turns out they don't have any. Then you come onto the dictator and justifying it as that. Which nation placed him there to "defend" against the threat of Iran. You guessed it - the US. So in "defending" their interests they have actually attacked.

This may seem a little convoluted and complicated but it is the framework of all conflicts in essence. Everyone wants to "defend" but by defending all the time you will inevitably attack because what is yours to "defend" varies from nation to nation and person to person. If people didn't feel the need to have this concept of "defending" from "them" there wouldn't be war. Look at the US's arsenal list. Nowhere is it listed as "weapons of mass destruction" but "strategic weapons of defensive capability". No reference to them being used offensively but that is what they are used for. Everyone inevitably is going to attack regardless of how much "defending" of rights you do.

[JJM]

Originally Posted by Anzac

I personally don't agree with the idea of killing another human being in any context - it's self-defeating. When you mention it to everyone they agree with it - so why do wars happen? Because everyone talks about defence and stopping people killing by killing but it all turns into one vicious circle.

Look at the lastest war on Iraq - pre-empitve strike with no truly justified (personally I don't see why there would ever be one, but still) reason yet the war went ahead. The excuse of an evil dictator and weapons of mass destruction are really no excuses. There is no justification as the US and UK have huge arsenals of nuclear and biological weapons yet you don't see Italy or another country invading because they might use them. Then it turns out they don't have any. Then you come onto the dictator and justifying it as that. Which nation placed him there to "defend" against the threat of Iran. You guessed it - the US. So in "defending" their interests they have actually attacked.

This may seem a little convoluted and complicated but it is the framework of all conflicts in essence. Everyone wants to "defend" but by defending all the time you will inevitably attack because what is yours to "defend" varies from nation to nation and person to person. If people didn't feel the need to have this concept of "defending" from "them" there wouldn't be war. Look at the US's arsenal list. Nowhere is it listed as "weapons of mass destruction" but "strategic weapons of defensive capability". No reference to them being used offensively but that is what they are used for. Everyone inevitably is going to attack regardless of how much "defending" of rights you do.

I agree with you on the "weapons of mass destruction" I never truly believe they where there. I also new that the US put Sadam in Power. In the quote you used I was referring to someone pulling a knife on you or a criminal who is still committing these crimes inside the jail or has a history of successful escapes. As for my first reason for expectable war Look at the gulf war would you not justify that. My second I guess would say would justify this current war but come on you have to admit that Sadam Hussein was one sick Mofo. And as you pointed out we (US) did put him there so should we not take him out. I don't however think that he should be executed unless he attempts to lead resistance forces from with in his jail cell. When I wrote it though I was thinking of more of a revolt situation. My third I'd be referring to Hostage situations and illegal seizure of property. And my for is more something along the lines of Afghanistan where Terrorist training camp could continues to be ran freely and thus being a threat all countries. I don't believe that this includes countries with nothing but the opportunity to cause harm but one with much more going against them.

[El Greko]

Originally Posted by iKwak

Didn't read all the post but I would like to include:


Terrorism all started out with conflicts between religion.

I believe that the first terrorist act - ie one that claims the life of the terrorist-freedom fighter was by Samson in of all places Gaza.

GAZA a name that is mentioned often in internationl news broadasts and yet an insignificant strip of land as it was in Biblical times thousands of years ago.

Samson was captured by the Philistines who lived there and his eyes put out and he was chained to pillars of their pagan temple.

Samson decided to pull down the temple upon himself and thereby kill thousands of PHilistines at the same time who were there having a party at his expense.

He used the stone temple as a weapon of mass destruction because with his eyes put out he felt he had no future (without vision a nation perishes) life would not be worth living so may as well take as many of the enemy as possible and die a hero to his people.

Sounds familiar?

Amazing that it was a Jewish warrier who taught by example the inhabitants of Gaza how to become hero martyr terrorists and
Gaza remains a breeding ground of hero martyr terrorists.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by El Greko

I believe that the first terrorist act - ie one that claims the life of the terrorist-freedom fighter was by Samson in of all places Gaza.

GAZA a name that is mentioned often in internationl news broadasts and yet an insignificant strip of land as it was in Biblical times thousands of years ago.

Samson was captured by the Philistines who lived there and his eyes put out and he was chained to pillars of their pagan temple.

Samson decided to pull down the temple upon himself and thereby kill thousands of PHilistines at the same time who were there having a party at his expense.

He used the stone temple as a weapon of mass destruction because with his eyes put out he felt he had no future (without vision a nation perishes) life would not be worth living so may as well take as many of the enemy as possible and die a hero to his people.

Sounds familiar?

Amazing that it was a Jewish warrier who taught by example the inhabitants of Gaza how to become hero martyr terrorists and
Gaza remains a breeding ground of hero martyr terrorists.

this is your interpretation. Because there is no where in the Bible stating this as scripture. I just want to be absolute on this...this is your personal interpretation.

I see a different story you understand...therein lies the crux of the matter. Same story, different points of view. No priests can augment, because they would not be believed in this forum.

You have an interesting point of view, and I respect that. I see, however, different things from the same story...

[Susma Rio Sep]

Of war and religion, I think that if we distinguish between the real world consisting in such things as eating, stones, and lightning, and the credal world consisting of such things of God, hell, sphinx, then we can see that religion becomes a factor in war when people cannot see what is real from what is credal, and worse they take the credal as real.

The confusion between the real world and the credal world is due to the failure to live in the world of logic, but to stray into the delusional world.

The world of logic consists in such concepts as two plus two equals four, and the whole is greater than any of its parts; the delusional world is found in such behavior as the guy who thinks that he can fly and jumps out from the 50th storey of a building.

When we examine war where religion plays a part, we can see that politicians behave in a delusional world, but move their peoples to act in such a manner as to confuse the credal world with the real world, by preventing them from thinking and acting logically.

What is this delusional world that politicians live in? The world of megalomania, and all other kinds of manias and phobias they are drenched in as part of their character repertory.

What is the solution for not succumbing to delusional politicians? Education to discern the real world from the credal one, to detect the delusional world from the world of logic.


Susma Rio Sep

[El Greko]

Heavy man, thats a heavy thing to drop on me, I'm just a humble rocket scientist, what do you mean, please Susma Rio explain in first grade English you sound pretty delusional, can you brighten up just a tad!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by El Greko

Heavy man, thats a heavy thing to drop on me, I'm just a humble rocket scientist, what do you mean, please Susma Rio explain in first grade English you sound pretty delusional, can you brighten up just a tad!

quoth the raven..."never more".

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by El Greko

Heavy man, thats a heavy thing to drop on me, I'm just a humble rocket scientist, what do you mean, please Susma Rio explain in first grade English you sound pretty delusional, can you brighten up just a tad!

I used to come across books on how to read. One holds from cover to cover some over 600 pages in small print.

I think one of the editors of the Great Books of the Western World wrote also such a book.

If my writing sounds like Greek to you, maybe you can benefit from such books.

Or go to classes for people wishing to acquire elementary mastery of written and oral Englsih.

Let' us a good hearty laugh together, OK?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!




Susma Rio Sep