Religion as an excuse for war?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Interesting, yet those folks weren't raised, trained or funded in or by Iraq, not one of them, nor their leaders, yet that is where we've killed hundreds of thousands and spent trillions, I agree we are stupid.

Where were they from, why that same country that refuses to increase oil production, we call it Saudi Arabia, our friends, interesting.

I still say that on 9/12 if we'd have said, we have 1 billion dollars to support the capture and trial of the guilty parties the world would have found and turned in Osama quite quickly, as no country was really behind this, simply a radical organization, a snake we've spent 7 years attacking and succeeded only in creating many more little snakes.

All I am saying, if my contention was correct to date we'd have saved 299 billion dollars which could be used for all sorts of good around the world, probably not have an oil crisis right now...but we can't prove or disprove any of it, because we refuse to....give peace a chance..

Why does the US refuse to use the international court?? Because we know if we initiate that on ANYONE, that same court will try our Presidents and Generals who are guilty of 'preemptive strikes' and lying to get the US congress and population behind an illegitimate war. One who most of our public does think is against Muslims, (otherwise why would we paint Obama with negative rhetoric in the same regard??)

We did not kill hundreds of thousands. Hussean killed hundreds of thousands. We made tens of thousands RUN! They lived Wil. Stop watching CNN.

Don't blame the US and coalition for the all the deaths in Iraq. We didn't do it.

Look to the insurgents...but you can't because they don't have an identity. Sucks don't it?

Blaming uniformed men and women is STUPID.

And blaming their praying to God while they are in peril is FOOLISH and OUT OF LINE. You have no right. YOU aren't there, and have never been there. Please give them a break.

v/r

Q

[wil]

Namaste Q,

The same people that quantified deaths in Bosnia, Somalia, GWI did it for GWII but for some reason suddenly we doubt their numbers. They are quite systematic by their polling, thru hospitals, morgues, neighbors, employers etc.

I don't watch CNN, I don't blame the men in uniform, I'm just stating what is known. a. millions have run and the last death count I saw was 300,000 on the low end to 600,000 on the high end, civilians dead in Iraq, not due to insurgents but due directly to our giving them freedom, occupation, regime change, invasion, rescue, pre-emptive strike, liberation, whatever you want to call it.

If we call this success ....

ONE of George W. Bush's most loyal former aides, Scott McClellan, has launched a blistering attack on the President, saying Mr Bush relied on "propaganda" to sell the Iraq war and that the administration has "veered terribly off course"...."History appears poised to confirm what most Americans today have decided - that the decision to invade Iraq was a serious strategic blunder. .... "What I do know is that war should only be waged when necessary, and the Iraq war was not necessary." ...

65% of Republicans still give GW a favorable rating...

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

seems that God smiles upon the good and faithful servant,

v/r

Q

very true ,and sticking to what Jesus taught makes the faithful ones the channel that Jesus is feeding in a spiritual way matthew 24;45-47



And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him." luke 9;35




Why were first-century Christians able to keep clear of the bloody wars and politics of their time?

Two basic principles helped them. First, there was the command of Jesus to the apostle Peter when Peter used a sword to defend him: "Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword." (Matthew 26:52)


Second, the words of Jesus to Pilate when he asked about the nature of Jesus’ kingship: "My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source."—John 18:36.



How did first-century Christians apply those principles? They kept themselves completely separate from the world, maintaining strict neutrality when it came to political and military affairs. (John 15:17-19; 17:14-16; James 4:4)

They refused to take up arms against their fellowman.


It is clear from history that first-century Christians joined neither the Jewish nationalist movements nor the imperial armies of Rome. At the same time, they did not try to tell the political leaders what to do, as that was the responsibility of those governmental leaders.—Galatians 6:5.

[path_of_one]

Oh, here I go, jumping in all late and everything. For any who aren't already aware, I'm a staunch pacifist. And yes, I'd lay my freedom down to stand before God after my death without the knowledge that I took other lives. I don't think my freedom is worth other people's lives, quite frankly. Or rather, that the heart of my freedom is my relationship with God, and no one can take that away. I don't *need* to practice my religion openly; my religion is my everyday life, my testimony is kindness and love and honesty, and nothing that happens to these inconsequential and ephemeral concepts we call "nations" can change the heart of my reality, which is God.

I appreciate that those in the military are doing what they feel it necessary to do. Or, more accurately, some are doing that. Quite frankly, though it may sound awful, I will be forthright and say I've also met a lot of folks in the military who just plain wanted the benefits and cash and came from poor families and couldn't afford college. Not everyone puts on the uniform because they have some high and mighty ideals about preserving the American way of life and freedom. An awful lot of kids do it because they felt they had precious few other options, which is more a statement of the US and real equality than dedication to "nation."

At any rate, I appreciate that those who feel it is their calling are doing what they feel called to do. I would not be unkind to them, any more than I am unkind to anyone. But I do not have to agree simply because by chance I was born here and am told I am "American." I don't bow to flags and nation-states and temporary leaders and things of this world. I don't believe the cost to beings- human and not- is worth salvaging an emphemeral social experiment. Because that is what we are, and what ALL societies are. In every time and in every empire, people feel threatened and go to war. And the passing of time erases every society from the planet- either through transformation to something else entirely or through domination by others or through outstripping resource bases and collapse. That is the fact of history, and like each individual must face death, every society/empire faces an end, which is only the beginning of a new society.

In the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter whether I am a citizen of the US or not, whether I have these "freedoms" or not. Society is a cage of some sort no matter how enticing or lush it appears, yet if we would but embrace it, we are inherently free. That freedom which matters most deeply is inalienable, no matter how awful the prison of our society becomes. I am not against freedom, not at all. But I refuse to have other US folks tell me I should be grateful for people who kill and die for "me." I have not asked for such a cost, nor would I accept it. I am tired of being told I am ungrateful for something that I perceive as horrific and would not request to be given. Of course I am not grateful! I do not believe my one life, lived the way I want to live it, is worth the cost of countless others. No- I say I will hold on to my ultimate freedom- my freedom to choose peace, to embrace forgiveness on a global scale (not only personal, but blanketing all of humanity, as Christ showed us)- my freedom to stand up and say "Not in my name." I will hold on to my freedom to stand before God without the blood of other beings on my hands, without sacrificing what is most sacred and what doesn't belong to humanity for the sake of a temporary and fleeting identity- that I am "American."

I am not American. I was born in the US, through no choice of my own. I live here. I contribute what I can in the ways I feel are ethical. But *I am not American.* I am a human being. I am a child of God. I am a creature upon the earth. As such, my alliance is with LIFE. I take only those lives that are absolutely necessary- what I need to eat- which is proper for all creatures on the earth. I will not take lives for all that is unnecessary, including my desire to be "free." Because in pursuing such "freedom," I enslave my soul. I burden myself with death, with sacrifice to an idol, which is my "identity" and my "nation."

I belong to no one but the earth and God. I belong to Life. Life does not belong to me.

Quite frankly, and I know this is intensely radical- I could care less what happens to the constitution. Or rather, I know what will happen to the constitution. Like all documents in all empires, it will eventually fade to nothing. In time, all is lost. Just look at the history of humankind- it all fades. And perhaps the concepts will remain, but not because we fought for them, but rather because this is how humankind works- the concepts transform and are reused while the societies rise and fall, the empires come and go. We're just one more empire, probably a short-lived one because we are unsustainable, that will have our moment in time and then become history- become a collection of artifacts for archaeologists to dig up and a collection of documents that will be picked apart by historians.

The U.S. is nothing special. It is one more civilization in a history of civilizations.

"America," the Constitution, Congress- all are mere concepts, mere figments of our imagination, which will all come to pass and one day be completely forgotten apart from the legacy of what the earth does not swallow up- some plastic garbage, perhaps a little concrete, maybe a few documents.

My soul, however- who I am- that is immortal.

To me, it is utterly irrational and disharmonious to sacrifice what is God's, what is the earth's, what is higher than me for a fleeting identity, a temporary concept.

Indeed, America only has a vestige of following God if it sacrifices what belongs to God for temporary gain. Indeed, we have only a vestige of following Christ if we do not, in fact, follow him to the cross, asking God "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." Personally, I think the lukewarm vestige is more distasteful than a clear opposition to God. As Christ preached, be hot or cold, but do not be lukewarm.

As I see it, I am either for peace and life or I am not. I either overcome my fear and am willing to sacrifice myself for the only things that are ultimately real, or I am not. I work for the Kindgom of God- it is among us. We have never truly given it a chance. The history of humankind is a history of increasing war. War begets war. How could it be otherwise? I say, not in my name.

[cyberpi]

I was thinking:
1. With evolution war is a good thing: survival of the ...
2. War is a violation of the golden rule and several of the 10 commandments.
3. "In my name" is the foundation of representative government.

[manytrailsonepath]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I did not imply that you did. What I will point out is the torn decisions that we have to make (here in America). We the citizens hate war. Ok? We hate war. But once committed, we are the most dangerous people on earth. Maybe that is what you and Wil are worried about. How can I say that? Simple, we are the only people on earth to ever drop an atomic bomb...twice, with no warning.

Everyone else threatens, and uses God as their backup (God will propel us forward). Last I checked, the US was the only nation to unleash "God's" power, for good cause (we thought). And it caused over 140,000 immediate deaths...

I'd say we are a force to be reckoned with, and so far, God hasn't punished us for our choices.

I also think we are stupid, considering that we lost more people in 9-11 than in World War II's Pearl Harbor, and our citizens are lack luster in the danger that is at our front door...

Mark my words, our time of testing is come, and 2,000,000 military is not enough. Every citizen's contribution is going to be required.

Right now, we are living on borrowed grace...

v/r

Q

I will be the first to admit that I'm not the one to know if this is true but I do believe that God doesn't necessarily punish us here in this life on this earth. Rather it is when we stand before him at judgement after we've left our earthly bodies, in the after life. Not saying I'm right but that is my understanding of the Christian faith.
On the flip side maybe he has punished "us" we don't know how god would punish, what methods he may use. According to my (limited though it may be) understanding of the Christian faith we are not subject to the old "eye for an eye" thing anymore.

[manytrailsonepath]

Ok, here I go again. Like my original post stated I do belive there's never a good reason for war. After much thought I thought I would elaborate on that statement. Namely because of Q. Q you bring up some very good points and I think I may have failed to sufficiently acknowledge them. So, while I still believe that war is wrong and there's never a "good" reason for it I do want to say that despite how I feel about it there seems to be reason for it none the less. We as humans must tackle the decision of "turning the other cheek" vs. standing up for what's right, not letting tyranny rule the world and not letting innocent people be killed/opressed/tortured (among many other things). I guess in my previous posts I may have been unclear about the fact that I was just stating my opinion, not making a judgement call. Furthermore I was not stating my entire opinion. So there it is in a nutshell.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by manytrailsonepath

Ok, here I go again. Like my original post stated I do belive there's never a good reason for war. After much thought I thought I would elaborate on that statement. Namely because of Q. Q you bring up some very good points and I think I may have failed to sufficiently acknowledge them. So, while I still believe that war is wrong and there's never a "good" reason for it I do want to say that despite how I feel about it there seems to be reason for it none the less. We as humans must tackle the decision of "turning the other cheek" vs. standing up for what's right, not letting tyranny rule the world and not letting innocent people be killed/opressed/tortured (among many other things). I guess in my previous posts I may have been unclear about the fact that I was just stating my opinion, not making a judgement call. Furthermore I was not stating my entire opinion. So there it is in a nutshell.

I have never said war was right. I just said there are times when it is inevitable.

I don't like to fight to kill. But I will, if my nation, my people, my allies are in jeopardy. And all three are, today...

This is not ONE WORLD. Not yet. Until then, you will have heroes and saviors...

Babylon couldn't keep it together, Israel couldn't keep it together, USSR couldn't keep it together, and mayhap the US won't keep it together. But we were warned "It is a Federal republic, if you can keep it". There are those trying to keep it.

I will not harm the man who comes to my farm, unless he attempts to take over/harm/rule over my family...then all bets are off.

That is democracy, and all it entails...

v/r

Q

[manytrailsonepath]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I have never said war was right. I just said there are times when it is inevitable.

I don't like to fight to kill. But I will, if my nation, my people, my allies are in jeopardy. And all three are, today...

This is not ONE WORLD. Not yet. Until then, you will have heroes and saviors...

Babylon couldn't keep it together, Israel couldn't keep it together, USSR couldn't keep it together, and mayhap the US won't keep it together. But we were warned "It is a Federal republic, if you can keep it". There are those trying to keep it.

I will not harm the man who comes to my farm, unless he attempts to take over/harm/rule over my family...then all bets are off.

That is democracy, and all it entails...

v/r

Q

I would have to admit that I (for the most part) agree with you Q, as much as I hate the idea of taking a life to preserve my own or the live(s) of those I hold dear, I again must admit that I probably would in the face of that reality. I like to sit here in my somewhat sheltered home and think that I would be able to "turn the other cheek", but the reality is if my wife or family were at stake I wouldn't hesitate to act in whatever way was needed to protect them. I THINK I would be able to at least come closer to turning the other cheek if it were just me at stake, but lacking the experience of that reality I don't think I can honestly answer that. I still don't know if it would be right to justify those actions with God/religion. In my heart of hearts I don't believe it's justifiable in God's eyes.
I do admire your arguments Q and (to me) it seems that you have good reason for the beliefs you have and the statements you make seem well thought out. In truth I feel as though I'm just a wee boy in some of the issues we've touched on and for me to be any more convicted than what I've put down here so far would be premature on my part. But that's why we're here right, to learn, grow and compare? One last thing I wanted to acknowledge is that I figured you weren't saying war was right Q, I was just re-itterating my stance when I said I still thought it was wrong, didn't mean to imply and I'm sorry if it sounded like I was.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by manytrailsonepath

I would have to admit that I (for the most part) agree with you Q, as much as I hate the idea of taking a life to preserve my own or the live(s) of those I hold dear, I again must admit that I probably would in the face of that reality. I like to sit here in my somewhat sheltered home and think that I would be able to "turn the other cheek", but the reality is if my wife or family were at stake I wouldn't hesitate to act in whatever way was needed to protect them. I THINK I would be able to at least come closer to turning the other cheek if it were just me at stake, but lacking the experience of that reality I don't think I can honestly answer that. I still don't know if it would be right to justify those actions with God/religion. In my heart of hearts I don't believe it's justifiable in God's eyes.
I do admire your arguments Q and (to me) it seems that you have good reason for the beliefs you have and the statements you make seem well thought out. In truth I feel as though I'm just a wee boy in some of the issues we've touched on and for me to be any more convicted than what I've put down here so far would be premature on my part. But that's why we're here right, to learn, grow and compare? One last thing I wanted to acknowledge is that I figured you weren't saying war was right Q, I was just re-itterating my stance when I said I still thought it was wrong, didn't mean to imply and I'm sorry if it sounded like I was.

No worries mate. Been around here long enough to show that I've never changed my stance on certain issues, and have learned to change on others.

I think that is growing up. And I do appreciate your candor. It gives me pause for thought, and contemplation.

v/r

Q

[greymare]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No worries mate. Been around here long enough to show that I've never changed my stance on certain issues, and have learned to change on others.

I think that is growing up. And I do appreciate your candor. It gives me pause for thought, and contemplation.

v/r

Q

"no worries mate." ??????
Q, you sound like a dinky di aussie,mate.
LOL
strewth,crikey etc

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

We did not kill hundreds of thousands.

Sorry Q I know your post was to Wil but I have to add my 2 pence worth.

Yes we did and are still doing so today. Just google Dublin and cluster bombs.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Hussean killed hundreds of thousands.

No he didn't, he killed tens of thousands and despite his killing sprees he managed to keep a country of waring factions at peace for a long time, everyone in this region knew that if you removed a dictator from Iraq civil war would break out. That is not to say he should have remained in power but what we have given the Iraqi people in his place is anything but demoracy.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Don't blame the US and coalition for the all the deaths in Iraq. We didn't do it.

No we didn't kill all the dead but our death toll is higher than anyone elses.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Look to the insurgents...but you can't because they don't have an identity. Sucks don't it?

Yes they do have names and identities and we know the names of the groups but like all insurgents they work behind masks and closed doors.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Blaming uniformed men and women is STUPID.

I only blame uniformed men and women for the torture, rapes and murders some have commited, the rest I blame on our governments and their greed.

So is it stupid to expect uniformed men and women to answer for torturing prisoners and taking photos of it, raping and murdering families to try to cover up the rapes?

Originally Posted by Quahom1

YOU aren't there, and have never been there.

But I have been and in uniform too!!

Quite frankly Q your comments about you and your allies not being safe sounds like the usual US scare mongering propaganda - that's how we got in this mess in the first place. If you don't run around the world destroying countries and killing people for oil then what have you or your freedom got to fear from those people?

[mee]

As mentioned in the previous post ,there was a group in the first century that established an international brotherhood in which it would have been unthinkable for one member to war against his brother or sister.

This was the Christian congregation, whose members in a very literal sense had beaten their swords into plowshares.

Today, while mankind as a whole can make no headway in abolishing war, there is again a group of people who have achieved this same remarkable goal. Who are they? I HAVE FOUND THEM by their fruits you will recognize those ones , AND MEE DID

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Sorry Q I know your post was to Wil but I have to add my 2 pence worth.

Yes we did and are still doing so today. Just google Dublin and cluster bombs.



No he didn't, he killed tens of thousands and despite his killing sprees he managed to keep a country of waring factions at peace for a long time, everyone in this region knew that if you removed a dictator from Iraq civil war would break out. That is not to say he should have remained in power but what we have given the Iraqi people in his place is anything but demoracy.
No MW You aren't there and have no knowledge but what El Jazerra tells you. Don't dare tell me I am wrong. I have eye witnesses that counter your claims, and they live it day by day. Please do not insult me or mine.


No we didn't kill all the dead but our death toll is higher than anyone elses.



Yes they do have names and identities and we know the names of the groups but like all insurgents they work behind masks and closed doors.



I only blame uniformed men and women for the torture, rapes and murders some have commited, the rest I blame on our governments and their greed.

So is it stupid to expect uniformed men and women to answer for torturing prisoners and taking photos of it, raping and murdering families to try to cover up the rapes?



But I have been and in uniform too!!

Quite frankly Q your comments about you and your allies not being safe sounds like the usual US scare mongering propaganda - that's how we got in this mess in the first place. If you don't run around the world destroying countries and killing people for oil then what have you or your freedom got to fear from those people?

Bunk. I've never killed a soul, but saved hundreds...and I'm the "dirty monster American" you are scathing about...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

As mentioned in the previous post ,there was a group in the first century that established an international brotherhood in which it would have been unthinkable for one member to war against his brother or sister.

This was the Christian congregation, whose members in a very literal sense had beaten their swords into plowshares.

Today, while mankind as a whole can make no headway in abolishing war, there is again a group of people who have achieved this same remarkable goal. Who are they? I HAVE FOUND THEM by their fruits you will recognize those ones , AND MEE DID

Wrong. There was no brotherhood until the second century. Had there been a brotherhood in the first century, they would have fallen with the Jews on top of the mount.