Religion and Existential Angst.

[Paladin]

Just curious, how many persons here have suffered from existential angst at one time or another in their lives, and how has your religion or spiritual path helped with that?

[Caimanson]

For me, the threshold before becoming a christian was full of existential emptiness, meaninglessness big time, I was desperate to find answers.
Nowadays I am again seeking, but I have over the time learnt to deal with uncertainty better.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Just curious, how many persons here have suffered from existential angst at one time or another in their lives, and how has your religion or spiritual path helped with that?

Hi,

This is a rather over-used phrase and quite elastic in its meaning I think; so can you clarify what you are referring to specifically?

Thanks,

s.

[seattlegal]

Fasting of The Heart


Yen Hui, the favorite disciple of Confucius, came to take leave of his Master.

"Tell me," said Yen Hui, "what is fasting of the heart?"

Confucius replied. "The goal of fasting is inner unity. This means hearing, but not with the ear; hearing, but not with the understanding; hearing with the spirit, with your whole being. The hearing that is only in the ears is one thing. The hearing of the understanding is another. But the hearing of the spirit is not limited to any one faculty, to the ear, or to the mind. Hence it demands the emptiness of all the faculties. And when the faculties are empty, then the whole being listens. There is then a direct grasp of what is right there before you that can never be heard with the ear or understood with the mind. Fasting of the heart empties the faculties, frees you from limitation and from preoccupation. Fasting of the heart begets unity and freedom."


"I see," said Yen Hui. "What was standing in my way was my own self-awareness. If I can begin this fasting of the heart, self-awareness will vanish. Then I will be free from limitation and preoccupation! Is that what you mean?"


"Yes," said Confucius, "that's it! If you can do this, you will be able to go among men in their world without upsetting them. You will not enter into conflict with their ideal image of themselves. If they will listen, sing them a song. If not, keep silent. Don't try to break down their door. Don't try out new medicines on them. Just be there among them, because there is nothing else for you to be but one of them. Then you may have success!
It is easy to stand still and leave no trace, but it is hard to walk without touching the ground. If you follow human methods, you can get away with deception. In the way of Tao, no deception is possible.
You know that one can fly with wings: you have not yet learned about flying without wings. You are familiar with the wisdom of those who know, but you have not yet learned the wisdom of those who know not.
Look at this window: it is nothing but a hole in the wall, but because of it the whole room is full of light. So when the faculties are empty, the heart is full of light. Being full of light it becomes an influence by which others are secretly transformed."



Excerpt from "The Way of Chuang Tzu"
Interpreted by Thomas Merton

Also--
Matthew 6:16-18
16 “Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 17 But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hi,

This is a rather over-used phrase and quite elastic in its meaning I think; so can you clarify what you are referring to specifically?

Thanks,

s.

Hi Snoopy,

Quite right to call me on that point, but I left it vague for a reason. Sort of trying for a "let the play say the thing" kind of answer. But a request deserves a response. Many of my friends, and especially my older sister suffer from an unnameable dread that confronts them when they consider nothingness, the void, the great beyond which is beyond their thinking. Now, you and I might understand viscerally the joy of emptiness but many shudder to consider the I who I am may not continue to be who I am. Not everyone experiences this kind of dread as their toes curl on the precipice to the void, but for those who take refuge in a religion or philosophy to soothe the clenching in their chest I wonder how mindful of that action they are?
Why do I care? Call it my nature to do so and chalk it up to an overactive curiosity. Call it an exploration of Self and Other and what that conventional and ultimately absolute relationship must be.

Seattlegal has quite elegantly answered the question I should think, thank you dear! Yet so many erudite souls here might have views contrary to mine and I find that infinitely valuable.

Peace

[Snoopy]

Thanks Paladin. I shall cogitate and thence respond!

s.

[wil]

I needed the definitions and explanations...I've gone from 'who the hell cares it is all about me', to "the question is to big to ponder and unprovable anyway", to just bliss with life and bliss with all the crap I've instigated life to toss at me.

I've never overly concerned myself with the what is, I have vague notions, but no completely positive knowing of pearly gates or reincarnation or whatever...and am quite at peace with this...

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Now, you and I might understand viscerally the joy of emptiness but many shudder to consider the I who I am may not continue to be who I am.

Hi,

To believe that one is a discrete, constant entity is presumably to leave oneself open to this angst then. If your older sister ever decides that maybe this is not the case then this may help the angst to subside as it appears that this is the source of it.

s.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Hi Snoopy,

Quite right to call me on that point, but I left it vague for a reason. Sort of trying for a "let the play say the thing" kind of answer. But a request deserves a response. Many of my friends, and especially my older sister suffer from an unnameable dread that confronts them when they consider nothingness, the void, the great beyond which is beyond their thinking. Now, you and I might understand viscerally the joy of emptiness but many shudder to consider the I who I am may not continue to be who I am. Not everyone experiences this kind of dread as their toes curl on the precipice to the void, but for those who take refuge in a religion or philosophy to soothe the clenching in their chest I wonder how mindful of that action they are?
Why do I care? Call it my nature to do so and chalk it up to an overactive curiosity. Call it an exploration of Self and Other and what that conventional and ultimately absolute relationship must be.

Seattlegal has quite elegantly answered the question I should think, thank you dear! Yet so many erudite souls here might have views contrary to mine and I find that infinitely valuable.

Peace

Here's another nugget that describes the paralyzing "unnameable dread that confronts them when they consider nothingness, the void, the great beyond which is beyond their thinking," contrasted to "the joy of emptiness," in a more personal respect. The "who I am may not continue to be who I am" actually happens when you become paralyzed by such thoughts, which can manifest as "existential angst." JHMO.

Poem – The centipede
by Mrs Edmund Craster (d. 1874)


A centipede was happy quite,
Until a toad in fun
Said ‘Pray which leg moves after which ?
This raised her doubts to such a pitch
She fell exhausted in a ditch,
Not knowing how to run.

While lying in this plight,
A ray of sunshine caught her sight;
She dwelt upon its beauties long,
Till breaking into happy song,
Unthinking she began to run,
And quite forgot the croakers fun.

[seattlegal]

Here's another one, for those who need something more wordy:
Have Faith in Your Mind

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hi,

To believe that one is a discrete, constant entity is presumably to leave oneself open to this angst then. If your older sister ever decides that maybe this is not the case then this may help the angst to subside as it appears that this is the source of it.

s.

Yes Snoopy, I think you have nailed it. The challenge is to guide a person to the point where they actually have the realization of "self" being a rather arbitrary concept. In fact it might just be a quantum leap of consciousness. Anyone who has made this discovery has indeed leapt quite a chasm in their understanding.

Peace

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Here's another one, for those who need something more wordy:
Have Faith in Your Mind

{{{{Seattlegal}}}}

[flowperson]

In my own case, I lived much of my life (until about fifteen years ago) with a distinct feeling of "impending doom". Then, quite magically, when I began to understand just what my "mission" in life might be and how it might "connect" with and to the future welfare of others, my outlook magically changed.

It was all kind of like the Blues Brother film, aimless and pointless existence until the time that they were shown "the light" and the rest is filmography history. If you were to ask me the nature of my particular mission I would have to confess definitional ignorance...other than perhaps to collect and organize information that is important to my beliefs, and then to pass it on to others in a generally understandable form.

Now I do not worrry about the darkness in the future. It will always be there, but not recognizing it and dwelling upon it seems to magically eliminate its realities until they must be dealt with. It's not a process of "fooling" myself, but one of recognition and discernment of what is important for life in general, and for my life specifically.

flow....

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Paladin

The challenge is to guide a person to the point where they actually have the realization of "self" being a rather arbitrary concept. In fact it might just be a quantum leap of consciousness. Anyone who has made this discovery has indeed leapt quite a chasm in their understanding.

Peace

Hi,

Obviously holding certain religious beliefs will preclude this from happening whilst they are still held.>>>> > continued angst>>>>

s.

[samabudhi]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Hi Snoopy,

Quite right to call me on that point, but I left it vague for a reason. Sort of trying for a "let the play say the thing" kind of answer. But a request deserves a response. Many of my friends, and especially my older sister suffer from an unnameable dread that confronts them when they consider nothingness, the void, the great beyond which is beyond their thinking. Now, you and I might understand viscerally the joy of emptiness but many shudder to consider the I who I am may not continue to be who I am. Not everyone experiences this kind of dread as their toes curl on the precipice to the void, but for those who take refuge in a religion or philosophy to soothe the clenching in their chest I wonder how mindful of that action they are?
Why do I care? Call it my nature to do so and chalk it up to an overactive curiosity. Call it an exploration of Self and Other and what that conventional and ultimately absolute relationship must be.

Seattlegal has quite elegantly answered the question I should think, thank you dear! Yet so many erudite souls here might have views contrary to mine and I find that infinitely valuable.

Peace

In his "Two Traditions of India - Truth and Silence", Alex Wayman describes the heterogeneous nature of early Indian soteriologies, particularly looking at the Brihadaranyaka and Chandogya Upanishads, and their relationship with Buddhism.
For in the Brihad', union with Brahman is achieved through the extinction of desires, while the approach of the Chandogya is in antithesis to this - proclaiming the fruit as the fulfillment of all desires.

In Buddhism, we see both these points of view; "passionlessness is bliss" - Shakyamuni Buddha and "by that which you are bound shall you be released" - Hevajra Tantra.
It appears to be less a matter of right vs wrong, but rather effective(compassionate) vs ineffectual(uncompassionate).

That sentient beings are afraid of nihilist extinction is to be expected, and that others are afraid of the suffocating hold of materiality is as well. Holding someone's head over the primordial abyss who isn't inclined to renunciation will only scare them, the result of their misunderstanding of emptiness.

If emptiness is as all-pervasive as the Buddhas claim, those inclined to truth will recognize emptiness in form as clearly as those inclined to silence do in space.