Religeous Education in Schools

[wil]

I might not like to be a part of any of the mainstream faiths but I do feel that many children would greatly benefit from having a more developed spirituality. Its how to encourage them to that end without 'selling' them a religeon thats hard to figure. But they are certainly not going to find it from 1 hour a week from a 'fear thy God' presbyterian.

Maybe they will, maybe it is just what they need!

I tell my kids that their algebra teacher whom they dislike as she is strict and hard, and authoratarian is good for them. That in their life they will run into all sorts of people that they need to deal with, work with, and complete tasks with. That school not only teaches them a foundation of educational material but also they will gain social skills, in the classroom, on the playground, at lunch and on the way to and from school...

Could be one year of one hour a week fire and brimstone will be beneficial for their understanding of differing religious belief systems. Could be learning to conform to her methods, answering the questions in the required way to get grades will payoff buckets later. Could be your child and you are dealing with this teacher for a reason...works in mysterious ways you know!

namaste,

[NamelessMan]

Hi, TE,

One account I can relate as regards this question from my own personal experience (way back when I was in High School!) although not really a religious education question would be the time my English Class I was given an assignment to write an essay on any social and or political issue. I chose to write an article on the detrimental effects of organized religion on society. When I handed in my paper, my english teacher saw the title, and said very drily to me, "You do know my husband is a preacher, don't you?" in a way that implied that I had written the paper to annoy her. She gave me a very low passing grade on the paper, which was not in keeping with the usually high marks I recieved from her before this incident. Anyway, the point in all this is that when you are dealing with education and matters of religion it is very hard for people to remain unbiased and fair if they have a strong conviction regarding their faith. I'm really not sure if public school is the proper forum for Religious Education.

regards,
N/M (a hopeless "liberal socialist swine")

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by dauer

Tao,

I don't think it's as much of a factor as you say it is. If the school teaches tolerance and has activities with people outside of the school, then there's no harm done. You come from a particular area where intolerance is related to private religious schooling. The only private religious schooling I've ever come into contact with raises sensitive, caring human beings who are in fact tolerant, but are also much more deeply educated about their tradition than could ever possibly be done after school. We're talking Hebrew literacy, versed in gemara and tanach, and more than comfortable with the liturgy. It's impossible to do all that any other way. Not only that, but they're free thinkers. The school was preparing the kids for college, and instead of making them memorize vast amounts of information, it was teaching them to work with it and come to their own conclusions. That's something that's hard to find in public school.

Dauer

All the schools I have referred to are State funded schools. Here the state funds mainstream non-denomenational schools, (all protestants and people from any other faith can attend these), Catholics schools and there are now a handful of Muslim schools. Private schools here are mostly, but not exclusively, non-denomenational and are more linked to social class/wealth than faith.

I do appreciate that Jewish education is an integral part of being Jewish and I have never once considered this way wrong. This is because, ( outside of Israel which is in many ways is an entrenched fortress), I have never come across Jewish extremeists and because the Jewish 'family unit' and community is so loving and supportive of its children. That said I see little evidence of integration outside of the community, that may well be because there are so few Jews in my city however. And no matter how well intentioned or even beneficial to the children the fact remains that it is still something the child has no say in. Yet the level of academic standards acheived by Jewish peoples is very high, and in my experience of meeting and befriending them I have indeed found them to be extremely rational free thinkers. Perhaps its time you shared your secrets with the rest of us


Regards

TE

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by wil

Maybe they will, maybe it is just what they need!

I tell my kids that their algebra teacher whom they dislike as she is strict and hard, and authoratarian is good for them. That in their life they will run into all sorts of people that they need to deal with, work with, and complete tasks with. That school not only teaches them a foundation of educational material but also they will gain social skills, in the classroom, on the playground, at lunch and on the way to and from school...

Could be one year of one hour a week fire and brimstone will be beneficial for their understanding of differing religious belief systems. Could be learning to conform to her methods, answering the questions in the required way to get grades will payoff buckets later. Could be your child and you are dealing with this teacher for a reason...works in mysterious ways you know!

namaste,

Spot on again Will and your advice is very similar to how I advised my son to approach it. (However I still feel its wrong for her to take such a class).


Regards

TE

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Nameless,

I too am a bit lost on what to think. However much I dislike the idea of religeons being taught I see in my own community a moral/ ethical decline in the children that really depresses me. Maybe SeattleGal is correct and that 1hr a week is part of the problem. I really dont know.

Regards

TE

[dauer]

Tao,

I wasn't speaking about Judaism in general. I was speaking very specifically about liberal Jewish schools. I'd imagine the same trend is modelled in liberal schools of other traditions, but I can only speak for what I know.

You seem to have a problem with a parent selecting a school, when a child has no say in this, but isn't the same true for public school? At what point does it become a parent's obligation to make a decision on a child's behalf, and when is it not an obligation?

Also, why are the public schools either Catholic or Protestant? How does that work? I'm not familiar with the Scottish (or is that UK) system.

Dauer

[Tao_Equus]

You seem to have a problem with a parent selecting a school, when a child has no say in this, but isn't the same true for public school? At what point does it become a parent's obligation to make a decision on a child's behalf, and when is it not an obligation?

What I mean is specific to religeon, I feel it would be best if all children went to non-denomenational schools and recieved their education together. That seems to be the norm in public schools over there....its not here.

Also, why are the public schools either Catholic or Protestant? How does that work? I'm not familiar with the Scottish (or is that UK) system.

Scotlands education system is independent from that of England and Wales but I think all have publicly funded protestant and catholic schools. I think the primary reason for it is the historical animosity between the catholic and protestants, that might not be the technical defenitions they would use but it is none the less the truth. My argument is that the separate schools only help maintain the problems of sectarianism. If kids were not subjected to this Us and Them on an institutional basis it would go a long way to eradicating the problem.

Regards

TE

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

I attended state funded Catholic schools from the age of 4 - 18. At the age of 18 I knew a lot about Cathoilcism and Christianity in general and a little bit about Judaism, but I knew nothing at all about Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sihkism, Taoism, or any other faith. I Think I am only now, at the age of 24, reaching an acceptable level of understanding of other faiths.

In addition to this, we were all hounded and ridiculed by students from other schools who referred to us as "Bible Bashers"

I was once given a detention because I refused to spend my RE lesson writing a letter to my MP arguing that abortion should be illegal.

Recently there are a lot of muslim immigrants in the area who have their own, state funded, muslim school. There is ZERO integration between these families and the rest of the town. We have become a collection of completely independant, autonomous communities, and the longer this goes on, the more these communities fear and resent each other's presence, IMO simply out of a lack of understanding.

Perhaps faith schools produce more academically able students with firm religious beliefs, but they tear at our society. I do not believe that religious segregation can ever be positive.

[Tao_Equus]

Hi there ATF

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

I attended state funded Catholic schools from the age of 4 - 18. At the age of 18 I knew a lot about Cathoilcism and Christianity in general and a little bit about Judaism, but I knew nothing at all about Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sihkism, Taoism, or any other faith. I Think I am only now, at the age of 24, reaching an acceptable level of understanding of other faiths.

In addition to this, we were all hounded and ridiculed by students from other schools who referred to us as "Bible Bashers"

I was once given a detention because I refused to spend my RE lesson writing a letter to my MP arguing that abortion should be illegal.

Recently there are a lot of muslim immigrants in the area who have their own, state funded, muslim school. There is ZERO integration between these families and the rest of the town. We have become a collection of completely independant, autonomous communities, and the longer this goes on, the more these communities fear and resent each other's presence, IMO simply out of a lack of understanding.

Perhaps faith schools produce more academically able students with firm religious beliefs, but they tear at our society. I do not believe that religious segregation can ever be positive.

It is extremely sad and gives no cause for optimism in race relations getting any better here in the UK. When you do see a group of multi-ethnic children at play together especialy in the nursery, (kindergarten), enviroment there is no hint of difference or predjuidice. The negatives are all 'learned' behaviours not inherant ones. I think we must follow the US on this one and remove all funding for Faith schools, or go further and ban all Faith schools before age 12. No politician would have the courage to propose that tho. Its sad that in this IT age we build ever stronger walls around ourselves, become ever more divided, suspicious and fearful. And that we needlessly engender these things in our children is arguably criminal and moraly repugnant. Suffer little children.........


Regards

TE

[Bandit]

i went to a private school (i think it was baptist) for two days & was kicked out because i refused to get my haircut & wear a tie.

then i was sent to a different private school (brethren christian) & stayed for one year & insisted on going back to the public school because a lot of the private kids most definately had bad attiudes & thought they were better than others. but there really was no difference than a public school as far as i am concerned except for there bible class you have to take.

i have nothing against private schools sponsered by a religion & if that is what someone wants, then it is fine by me.
but it was not for me.

[wil]

It is extremely sad and gives no cause for optimism in race relations getting any better here in the UK. When you do see a group of multi-ethnic children at play together especialy in the nursery, (kindergarten), enviroment there is no hint of difference or predjuidice. The negatives are all 'learned' behaviours not inherant ones. I think we must follow the US on this one and remove all funding for Faith schools, or go further and ban all Faith schools before age 12. No politician would have the courage to propose that tho. Its sad that in this IT age we build ever stronger walls around ourselves, become ever more divided, suspicious and fearful. And that we needlessly engender these things in our children is arguably criminal and moraly repugnant. Suffer little children.........

I agree with you on most every point. But the following the US example. I wish you could reform your system and not throw the baby out with the bath water. Private religious schools for specific religions denominations that the Gov't doesn't fund make sense. Public schools with an unbiased exploratory comparative-religion curriculum makes huge sense. Banning prayer, any reference to God to me is ludicrous, and as you say the children will suffer.

namaste,

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Will

Originally Posted by wil

I agree with you on most every point. But the following the US example. I wish you could reform your system and not throw the baby out with the bath water. Private religious schools for specific religions denominations that the Gov't doesn't fund make sense. Public schools with an unbiased exploratory comparative-religion curriculum makes huge sense. Banning prayer, any reference to God to me is ludicrous, and as you say the children will suffer.

namaste,

It is quite a difficult area. Private schools are as much a socio/economic segragation as a religeous one and just as divisive in terms of preventing the integration of everyone at a young age so they all feel a part of the same society. Whatever the solution its a long way off. Most parents would rightly balk at government removing the choice from them. But in an ideal world the parents would insist on it themselves. We dont live in an ideal world......


Regards

TE

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Hi Will



It is quite a difficult area. Private schools are as much a socio/economic segragation as a religeous one and just as divisive in terms of preventing the integration of everyone at a young age so they all feel a part of the same society. Whatever the solution its a long way off. Most parents would rightly balk at government removing the choice from them. But in an ideal world the parents would insist on it themselves. We dont live in an ideal world......


Regards

TE

the private school i went to did not make feel that way at all except for in a couple of theological points. it had different races & several different religions attending it.
it seems you want anyone that has anything to do with specific religions to not be allowed to have private schools & teachers who have specific religions not to be allowed to teach in public schools, or so that is what i am gathering from your opening & continued statements.

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Bandit

Originally Posted by Bandit

the private school i went to did not make feel that way at all except for in a couple of theological points. it had different races & several different religions attending it.
it seems you want anyone that has anything to do with specific religions to not be allowed to have private schools & teachers who have specific religions not to be allowed to teach in public schools, or so that is what i am gathering from your opening & continued statements.

No thats not really the case, infact I have no clear idea what I want other than to see much greater integration from all ethno/religeous and economic groups. I have a feeling this is more an issue in the UK than in the US, Also
where religeon is taught it I feel it should not be presented as the only faith, as happens in muslim schools for example. The line between religeous education and indoctrination is a thin one and my belief is that children are not mentaly equipped to make rational interpratations on faith till they are adolescents at least. If children are allowed to freely mix and experience their commonality then it would reduce intolerances endemic in todays fortress communities. I do see the fact though that many parents regard their children as objects to be moulded into servants of their own ideals, and not as independant free spirits in their own right. So things wont change.

Regards

TE

[bob x]

no RE in USA---> church attendance goes up
RE in the UK--->church attendance goes down

Reminds me of a story about Churchill. One of his colleagues expressed concern about the school Winston had sent his son to: "Don't you know all the masters there are radical Liberals?"
"Good, then all the boys will be Conservatives."