Reincarnation in all religions

[Nitai]

Hare Krishna

Although the topic of reincarnation already exist I was thinking to start it here again. In the past I read one book which gave references from all different religions like Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, about the existence of reincarnations. It was interesting to see that in all these religions there were very deep thinkers who elaborately explained the mechanism of reincarnation, who comes back and why.

I would like here to request all the members of different religions to make some research about this topic namely which philosophers were those who spoke about reincarnation and how did they explain that. So, if anybody is interested welcome to this thread.

One more thing. I would be not so interested about the opinion about those philosophers e.g. that they were considered heretics or something like that I am more interested only in knowledge they gave.

[PersonaNonGrata]

What do you think about the animals in the surroundings? I sometimes think they were humans before, but not unrevealing their human identity as they have been showed how hell looked like.
Being an animal is another chance i sometimes see...

[Nitai]

Hare Krishna

Just to give you a quick reply because I have to go...the Vedas say that in the whole universe there are 8.400.000 species and among these 400.000 are the different types of human-like forms.

All these different types of bodies are representing different levels of consciousness. So, in human life, if one doesn't develop his God-consciousness or spiritual consciousness then the next life he'll get suitable body according to his consciousness he developed during the life. I mean suitable body in one of the 8.400.000 species of lives.

After some time according to ones karma (some sooner some later) after going through different animal species one comes again to human form of life which is again an opportunity to develop God-consciousness. Who knows how many times we were up and down all because desiring to not accept God in our life. Therefore, the request of the Vedas is 'athato brahma jigyasa' now is the time to inquire about God. Don't miss the chance.

[path_of_one]

I don't believe the animals are lower spiritually than us. In fact, in some ways they are higher. While they don't seem to wallow around in philosophy and religion, or think much about afterlife or their own death, nature glorifies God constantly. Animals are who they were created to be, without clouding the process with their own anxieties about being separated from God or greed or unjustified anger or intolerance.

My experience has been that you can learn a lot from nature, including the elements and the animals and plants. It is one way God communicates with us. I think that animals have a lot of God-consciousness, though it isn't the same as how we think of God.

Now I do believe that transmigration is possible, but I do not think that it is punishment. No one I've run into who believed they themselves were transmigrated and once animals thought it was a bad thing.
There are many different traditions of how people think about reincarnation and transmigration, and not all put humans at the pinacle of some sort of heirarchy. Some see all natural life more as an interrelated and interdependent web, each as valuable as the other, but each unique in its purpose and characteristics. My personal experience and belief is the latter- I never feel superior in any way when I come before the spirits in nature and animals. I feel humbled, because they have a simplicity and praise of God in their existence that most human beings do not.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,


just a technical point, if i may.

Buddha Dharma does not teach reincarnation, we teach rebirth, though they may seem the same, they are not.

reincarnation implies that there is something incarnate now and that this incarnation of self or soul or spirit, is eternal and thus will continue to reincarnate.

Buddhism does not teach this. there is nothing "incarnated" thus, there is nothing to re-incarnate. Buddhist rebirth is, briefly, a psychological process that deals with the mindstream of the sentient being and so forth and what happens to it after the physical form ceases to arise.

[Nitai]

Hare Krishna

* I don't believe the animals are lower spiritually than us. In fact, in some ways they are higher.

# The point is when you see the animals how they live completely depending and serving their senses, you can understand that they cannot even think about the soul. The Vedas say they don't have intelligence for that. Their intelligence is used only for taking care about eating, sleeping, meting and defending.

# Therefor, they are conditioned to bodily platform of life in which nor the existence of the soul nor the existence of God can be understood.

If you look at the dog, his main sense what he use is his nose sniffing everywhere only the stool, urine and chasing for sex. The birds are other example that are all day long busy only to look after food.

All the different animal species in similar way are only sensual and according to the Vedas are created to facilitate the fallen souls from the spiritual world to forget the existence of God. There is gradual evolution of the soul through different species. Not Darwinian evolution.

The human body is considered to be the most suitable for self-realization. One can get education, understand things logically and scientifically etc. Moreover, only in human form of life one can control his senses or IOW not to be the servant or the slave of the senses like the animals. This sense control is required for realizing our existence as soul. Unfortunately, in the west almost no one knows the importance of controlling the senses but rather everybody is addicted to sensuality like animals. Materialists don't desire to give up bodily understanding of life and sensuality because otherwise the life would have no any meaning. Especially because they don't want to accept God.

Anyway, if you you still don't want to accept that animals cannot think about God and soul you should point out the symptoms in the animals to prove the opposite. In my life I did see only few dogs which were very pious. We Hare Krishna devotees eat only food first offered to God, Krishna and these few dogs got the habit to also eat only food offered to Krishna, what we would give to them. Sometimes when they would be given unoffered food they did not want to touch that. This is very interesting because we Hare Krishna devotees are very strict about not eating unoffered food to Krishna. Then, these special dogs they also liked our chanting and dancing in the streets. Amazingly very often they would raise their two front legs just like we raise up our hands while chanting.

So, it is not excluded in some very rare cases that some animals can develop God-consciousness and show the symptoms of God-consciousness - ecstasy. But for this there is a need for special mercy of God or a devotee.

[Nitai]

Hare Krishna

Reincarnation in Buddhism

Usually, the word used in Buddhism is not "reincarnation" (meaning a new "embodiment" of the same soul), but "rebirth" (meaning a new birth with some aspects, dispositions, carried forward into this new birth and new body). Sometimes it is said in Buddhism: "rebirth without transmigration"—without the passing of a soul into another body, because there is no unchanging soul which passes from life to life.

# So, here even if we put aside the point that Buddhism don't accept the existence of the soul, still, the idea of life after life is there.

My extra comment on this is that to say 'dispositions' indicates that they are the property of somebody and because the dispositions cannot be the property of the material body they can be the property only of the spirit soul - the energizer of gross mater namely the material body; and the subtle body - the mind, intelligence and false ego.

Any comments on this?

[Vajradhara]

Namasker Nitai,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Nitai

Hare Krishna

Reincarnation in Buddhism

Usually, the word used in Buddhism is not "reincarnation" (meaning a new "embodiment" of the same soul), but "rebirth" (meaning a new birth with some aspects, dispositions, carried forward into this new birth and new body). Sometimes it is said in Buddhism: "rebirth without transmigration"—without the passing of a soul into another body, because there is no unchanging soul which passes from life to life.

# So, here even if we put aside the point that Buddhism don't accept the existence of the soul, still, the idea of life after life is there.

realize that there is a variety of view within the Buddha Dharma, itself, on this depending on which Vehicle and school that a being may practice.

within the Mahayana and Vajrayana Vehicles, the teaching goes further than this... there is no life, no being, no self and no soul. as such, there isn't really a concept of "life after life" in the way that this is usually meant.

one of the analogies which we emply is the image of two candles. the burning candle touches its flame to the wick of the unburning candle which now ignites. the flame on this candle is not the same flame as it was on the other candle, however, without the previous candle flame, this candle would not ignite.

[path_of_one]

Hello, my messages are in blue...

# The point is when you see the animals how they live completely depending and serving their senses, you can understand that they cannot even think about the soul. The Vedas say they don't have intelligence for that. Their intelligence is used only for taking care about eating, sleeping, meting and defending.

I think you'll find we are at odds here in a lot of places because we have quite different religious backgrounds. I communicate with animals and am very close to many, and I don't think animals serve their senses. I think they celebrate life by living in the moment. Their intelligence and emotional capacity is a lot higher than the Vedas are giving them credit for, in my honest opinion. Some animals care a great deal about sociality, about love and affection, about the others in their group- and it isn't all about survival. I've known animals who mourned so much for their animal friends that died, that they were entirely inattentive to eating, drinking, or indeed surviving at all. I guess it just depends on how one relates to animals. I'm a Christian, so I think all life has its own purpose, and yet I'm also a modern Druid, so I believe that animal spirits have wisdom and a sentience (though different from ours), and I don't at all think they are just bundles of instincts, senses, and biological mechanisms. It is obvious to me that the animals in my care are inquisitive, loving, and care deeply for each other and me. I've boarded my horses out before and all their needs were met by others (eating, etc.)- so why did they still come running up and nicker only to me? When all I do is pet them, and talk to them, and ride- by the estimation that they're all about eating and survival functions, they should love the stable manager who feeds them, not this girl who comes only to hang around and play with them.

# Therefor, they are conditioned to bodily platform of life in which nor the existence of the soul nor the existence of God can be understood.

I don't believe anyone really understands the soul or God. I think all we catch is glimpses of a really Big Something, and then filter that through our religion, culture, history, etc. I think animals, and all of nature, feel the existence of God. We humans just sit around and philosophize about it, while the animals are caught up in the moment. I don't think being caught up in the moment is necessarily a bad thing.

If you look at the dog, his main sense what he use is his nose sniffing everywhere only the stool, urine and chasing for sex. The birds are other example that are all day long busy only to look after food.

I'm sorry, but in my experience, both dogs and birds are much more interesting than that in their behaviors. Dogs play for fun all the time, and I've watched dogs just sit and enjoy the sunshine or a nice breeze. I've seen dogs go somewhere they used to go with a companion who has passed on, and pause, become quiet and subdued, seeming to remember happy times. And birds do all sorts of things, like catch certain upward drafts and just hovering, without purpose- seemingly just enjoying the breeze.

All the different animal species in similar way are only sensual and according to the Vedas are created to facilitate the fallen souls from the spiritual world to forget the existence of God. There is gradual evolution of the soul through different species. Not Darwinian evolution.

I studied a bit of Hinduism academically, and I understand what you are saying about the evolution of the soul. I just don't agree, except in an individual sense. What I mean is that I think each of us has a path of spiritual development, but I don't believe that there is a set heirarchy of levels of soul evolution, or an automatic system in place. The Vedas also said that I, as a woman, am lower in the evolution of my soul than a man, and I disagree with that as well. I think we are all unique, and it is valid for us all to experience God in different ways- some through His imminance in all creation (including the sensual experience of life), and some through philosophy, and some through service, etc.

The human body is considered to be the most suitable for self-realization. One can get education, understand things logically and scientifically etc. Moreover, only in human form of life one can control his senses or IOW not to be the servant or the slave of the senses like the animals. This sense control is required for realizing our existence as soul. Unfortunately, in the west almost no one knows the importance of controlling the senses but rather everybody is addicted to sensuality like animals. Materialists don't desire to give up bodily understanding of life and sensuality because otherwise the life would have no any meaning. Especially because they don't want to accept God.

Perhaps the human body is the most suitable for self-realization, but I don't think it is necessary to realize the self in order to realize God. I don't believe knowing God and salvation is about education, logic, or controlling the senses. I have an uncle who is severely handicapped mentally and physically- he's like a child. He can't control his senses, and he doesn't understand much. But he knows God loves him, and has faith in that. I believe He is just as spiritually evolved as me- perhaps more so in some ways- because he has the faith of an innocent. He needs no understanding to feel the love of God.

I do believe that self-control is a good thing, and materialism is not good for people (or the earth, for that matter). But I believe there is a difference between materialism and finding joy in life. Sensuality is not bad. God created all life, and gave us the wondrous capacity to feel the warmth of sunshine, His gentle touch in the breeze, to see the heavens and to hear the roar of life in the oceans. God gave us the capacity to look into another's eyes and fall in love, to hold a baby and feel that deep well-spring of nurturance. Indeed, spiritual ecstasy is itself a sensual experience- the heart-beat and breathing rate changes, we might see visions. It is often brought about in religions through sensory experiences- chanting, drumming, dancing. All of these things are filtered through our senses- they are feasts for our bodies and emotions... and our souls. I believe it is guiding sensuality in ethical action that is right, not seeking to escape from it.

Totally different perspectives, I guess? Being closest in line with Celtic Christianity and Druidry, I firmly believe in the interrelatedness of heaven and earth, God and humanity. I believe the two are intertwined, and one shouldn't seek to escape one for the other, but rather integrate the two into one balanced and joyful life.

Anyway, if you you still don't want to accept that animals cannot think about God and soul you should point out the symptoms in the animals to prove the opposite. In my life I did see only few dogs which were very pious.

Fascinating dog behavior, I must say. I don't know many pious animals, but I don't believe becoming pious is the goal. This must be a difference between your religion and my own. I believe becoming loving and joyful, faithful and peaceful is the goal. There are many, many animals (and others in nature) that live joyful lives, can instruct us on the excellent practice of celebrating the moment, of gratefulness for each moment of life God gives us. There are many animals I've met who are the epitome of loving and peaceful creatures. Indeed, unlike humans, animals rarely are aggressive for reasons not directly linked to their needs- food or self-defense. I find such behaviors more inspiring than the common human traits of being religious and philosophical, but also oppressive, greedy, and cruel. I believe God-consciousness is not the same for all species, for of course we have different brains and nervous systems- but I think the sign of God-consciousness is love, not ecstasy. The most God-conscious people that have ever existed were supremely loving beings- think of Mother Theresa and Ghandi, for example. And my dogs and horses are far more loving than many a human I meet.

I must say, this is a fascinating conversation. Reincarnation/rebirth is so often thought of as one concept by Christians, who generally reject it. But this conversation shows how the concept of reincarnation are integrated with others, and beliefs about it can be very different in different religious systems.

[Bandit]

i think animals are smarter than people. i dont know if the animal religion believes in reincarnation, but they just might .

& i believe they know who God is, & probably give him more respect than we do. i wonder if they could be little angels inside

Path, I enjoyed your post on this a lot.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i think animals are smarter than people. i dont know if the animal religion believes in reincarnation, but they just might .

& i believe they know who God is, & probably give him more respect than we do. i wonder if they could be little angels inside

Path, I enjoyed your post on this a lot.

sorry if this is off topic but i thought this was interesting
Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20 says: "There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust..............so we are all bits of dust with the animals

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by mee

sorry if this is off topic but i thought this was interesting
Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20 says: "There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust..............so we are all bits of dust with the animals

that is interesting & i believe it. we have dominion because it was given to us, that would not mean abuse it as in superiority. we all came from dirty dirt.
animals are smarter than some give them credit for.
thanks for sharing that Mee

anyone want to start a topic on the animals? & dolphins and the like?
dogs that lead the blind & help police men & fire fighters & a little bible to go with it.
sounds good to me.

i stand in the middle with reincarnation & see it as a possiblity & would never dismiss it as an absolute yes or no doctrine. but i think there is an understanding that goes with it.

[smkolins]

I don't think there has been a Baha'i oriented contribution and it is a rather different approach that theologically presentable from other religions as far as I know.... so it may be of some interest I hope....

The basic idea is that individual return is not what happens. What does happen, however, is a return of condition, including events and circumstances. In some ways this is a terribly obvious position - many of us are fathers, mothers, sons and daughters. Of each place in life, all of the same place have a unique relationship despite time and place. But there are more profound conditions - the Founders of the religions, their primary followers, their primary opponents, the signs of the approach ... many of these things return, together with some variation. The Baha'i references focus on the Founders of the religions but it isn't clear how it may or may not refer to others, that I've seen anyway.

One of the more well known instances, from Christianity, is when John the Baptist is called Elias. John told the truth in that he was not in person the return of Elias. Jesus told the truth in that he was performing the same role.

I have seen some speculation, not referred to in any Baha'i scripture, that individuals may have a unique harmony with past individuals. There is also an aspect that seems to be that a truely spiritual experience is always felt from the inside as if it was happening to us. Put the two together and one may feel a connection with a past individual as if it was happening to us.... 'Course this is just speculation.

[earl]

In the tulku tradition of Tibetan Buddhism it is believed that the mindstream of deceased "masters" may be reborn into human form again, but what is interesting about this tradtion is that they believe that "manifestations" of the mindstream, ("emanations") of multiple masters may be reborn in 1 individual. The metaphor of the candle that Vajradhara spoke of is the most common metaphor used in Buddhism-actually kind of works for me as it is a sort of "me/not me" kind of thing. I sometimes joke that Buddhism loves multiple choice questions but they would always choose answer "F"-"Yes, No, All of the Above, None of the Above." I noted Path's wonderful discussion of animals. In Buddhist cosmology they traditionally speak of 6 realms of existence including "animal" & "heavenly" realms (loka). While traditional Buddhists would literally believe a human done wrong could be reborn an animal, many contemporary buddhists interpret these realms more psychologically than literally-not to mention I agree with Path & I think traditional buddhist descriptions of the animal realm sells them short It is interesting though that Buddhists do insist that 1 can make more headway toward enlightenment in the human realm than any other including the heavenly 1-in that 1 you just kind of cruise along without enough suffering I guess to be grist for your mill.

To get back to that candle/tulku thing, it seems then if you buy into this Buddhist model that not only are our bodies on loan from the All & contain bits & pieces of far flung points of the material universe, but all aspects of what we consider ourself may be on loan. Further, wouldn't it be interesting if our "sins" were not only sins of the father, mother brothers, (of this life) etc, but of many relations of many past lives and so healing our current wounds is redeeming the condition of many beings of endless time and likewise what if our strengths have been passed along to us from many beings of this and endless time? The phrase "we're all in this together" would certainly take on added dimension and perhaps in this way the Buddhists' bodhisattva vow to "save all sentient beings" as well as the Zen notion of when 1 becomes enlightened we take all beings with us can really make sense.

Have a good one, earl

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Bandit

that is interesting & i believe it. we have dominion because it was given to us, that would not mean abuse it as in superiority. we all came from dirty dirt.

Love the quote, too, Mee. Thanks for sharing. I agree that we were given dominion, but I see this as a responsibility for stewardship, and as you do, I believe it doesn't mean superiority or excuse for reckless use. Kind of like parents have the responsibility of raising their kids, but the kids are still their own people and have rights, needs, lives, and spirits of their own. I love the imagery of the shepherd- Christ as our shepherd, and us as shepherds of this earth.

anyone want to start a topic on the animals? & dolphins and the like?
dogs that lead the blind & help police men & fire fighters & a little bible to go with it.
sounds good to me.

If you start it up- I'll chime in! (Or perhaps I'll start it up later, though my trend is to respond far more than I instigate...)

And as for animals being angels inside- it's a cute imagery. I have a few little Rottie ornaments with angel wings. People gave them to me when my first Rottie died; he was like a kid for my husband and I. I ask God to pet him all the time. I do think animals can act as God's messengers to us- indeed, as all of nature can. I believe that we have God's Word in the Bible, but God also wrote His Word in all creation so that all beings can know and love Him.

I know my dogs inspire me to be a better person. There's a saying I see on magnets and whatnot that says, "Lord, help me to be half as good a person as my dog thinks I am." Ain't that the truth!