reincarnation

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by didymus

Often times when we view that everything is wrong or we made the wrong decisions it was that our spirit chose these things for us. Our spirit came to the physical realm to learn and all of our life choices are in order to undergo deeper learning and growth. Our personality, or physical nature is at odds with our unlimited nature and constantly defines and labels things and situations. So the key is to recognize and acknowledge as much as possible that we have unlimited spirit inside us at all times. Love is in every cell and tissue of our body and was created in perfection. But we struggle with the density of physicality and get weighed down.

What is the difference between our spirit and ourselves? Are we not spirits with a physical body? I don't see placing the blame for our choices on our spirit is any difference than accepting the responsibility ourselves. Am I misunderstanding something here? Are we schizophrenic people?

[didymus]

Originally Posted by Dondi

What is the difference between our spirit and ourselves? Are we not spirits with a physical body? I don't see placing the blame for our choices on our spirit is any difference than accepting the responsibility ourselves. Am I misunderstanding something here? Are we schizophrenic people?

I think that we are dual in nature, we have an eternal spirit within us and it resides in our physical bodies. The physical knows only limitation and the spirit knows only unlimitedness. Our physical nature will clash with our spiritual nature at times by constantly trying to define, evaluate and judge things. I'm not saying it is our spirits fault, what I am saying is that the spirit nature within us may seek out life situations in an attempt to learn and grow from them. Our physical/ personality doesn't know this and begins to judge the situation. For example, this is bad, that is good. If good things are happening than I am doing the right thing, if bad things happen perhaps I am in error. I am not blaming spirit, I'm saying there are deeper levels of growth and learning spiritually that our physical nature doesn't like or recognize.

[taijasi]

As a response to the discussion of the relationship between spirit, body, our different modes of consciousness, and where & how choices are made (relative to reincarnation & growth experiences), maybe a chart would help. I've borrowed this chart & adapted it, and originally it had nothing to do with this topic ... but I think the funnel design is helpful. The notion that consciousnes expands & increases, relative to different levels of awareness, is vital, imo. The closer we approach to Soul/Spirit, the wider the funnel gets in general, but this is difficult to illustrate. Even per level, such as physical awareness, astral/emotional awareness, and mental awareness, there is an increase - such that a wide range of states of awareness is covered per level.



Moving from physical to astral, we might consider that the "first," or lower states of astral awareness belong to what we call the "sub-conscious," and thus, we are normally not aware of them, especially since repressed, or suppressed emotions/desires, belong to these states. The same is true at the level of lower mind, to a certain extent. Nothing at the level of the Soul is "un-conscious," as it belongs to the states which psychology calls the SuperEgo. It is our Conscience, and spiritually, the Soul is the entity that reincarnates, not the personality. Seven types of souls exist, but that is beside the point.

I think we can understand our life's experiences from many points of view, and I agree with what you're saying, Didymus, in principle. And I don't think that contradicts the point you're making, Dondi, about responsibility. Our goal is to learn to accept responsibility ... for every single thing that happens to us, including the consequences - both positive & negative - for every decision we make. This can be difficult, especially when is seems clear that we've been "set up," or when it looks like the world around us conspired without our best interest in mind. My findings, especially in recent years, is that - such an attitude, is called the victim mentality. And it is most unhealthy.

What would be accurate, is to say that, from a spiritual level, every single event provides us the opportunity for learning and growth. And that means growth both as a Soul, and as a person. It all depends on how we approach it, and what we make of it. Complain, and resist, and go seeking blame, and chances are we'll only make the situation worse. So do we choose to view life as a series of problems & challenges, or do we see all events, all of our relationship with other people, and our relationship with the Divine ... as opportunities for learning and growth? It's up to us.

One could argue, that to take such a mature perspective, betokens a true, Soul consciousness, and we can say things like, "But I'm not ready yet, I haven't become enlightened yet!" Fine, but we all know that, and to me, it's just a copout. We're using that as an excuse to justify our "bucking the Dharma." Why not act as if, and start behaving like we are really ready for these tougher experiences? Then we might not be so surprised when life keeps handing them out! lol After all, we know - that that's how life works!

This is especially challenging, I've found, for folks who've never considered that only through suffering ... can some people learn important lessons. Naturally, the personality wants it easy, we'd rather just learn from a book, or from happy, ecstatic experiences. But that's not what life is all about, that's not how things are for the vast majority of people in this world. And I think people who are always seeking to dodge the proverbial bullet in this way, are trying to cheat life, because they're refusing to accept the other side of the coin, as it were. It doesn't mean we're supposed to go throw ourselves in front of a bus, or intentionally fall down and break our leg. That's stupid. But taking the easy way out, is also - not always best.

I think it is certainly true, that from a certain level - in terms of Soul consciousness - yes, we did choose a given experience, even if it is distasteful to the personality. That doesn't mean we're supposed to "like" it, or be thrilled about it. But our attitude, and our choice to accept things responsibly, is what's important. To say that each moment is perfect, requires a definite degree of detachment ... from our tendency to label our experiences as positive & negative, good & bad, or even right & wrong! No one in their right mind is suggesting that we suddenly toss morality & ethics out the window. That is a complete misunderstanding. If anything, we must strive harder to embody the ideals we believe in. But when things don't go "right," it's important for us not to judge others, not to blame others, and also to remember to just breathe - and not freak out, blaming or judging ourselves! Then we don't have to go sobbing & moping around, feeling like we've screwed up, and we don't have to feel victimized by life's little bumps - or the big ones!

I don't think we can change overnight, and it doesn't mean that we have to believe in rebirth, either. If you think that you can learn the lessons you need to learn in one life, then go for it! Personally, I think it takes thousands! And while I do think that our spiritual growth still occurs after our transition to the next world, I think that the physical world is the only place which provides a certain type of experience necessary for us. The idea that early life is a complete waste, or a useless recapitulation of lessons already learned, can be debated. How? Because every single year is different here on this planet. We see familiar patterns, and certainly these are recapitulatory, but in that sense, these years are reaffirming, and most helpful to the Soul, as they help us to develop a foundation upon which all further/future learning can occur.

But we also do continue to learn new things, even during our childhood and adolescent years, since the world is different every time around. Also, these years are critical in terms of our relationships with others, since it's quite likely, that a cycle or two ago, your parents, might have been your children! Yeah, wow, I know - freaky concept. But taken as a given, in many Buddhist and Hindu countries/cultures. And if you didn't return as their child, when & how could they have a chance to repay the favor, and when & how could certain karmic factors be balanced? There are many ways (!), but each lifetime presents those in a slightly different context, while also according to familiar patterns. I could give examples, and even specific situations - probably even some from my own experiences. Just ask ...

Love & Light,

andrew

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by didymus

Taijasi, which book are you currently reading?

Didymus,

I'm reading several, including two right now by Dolores Cannon, dealing with reincarnation as explored from the perspective of a Past Life Regressionist. Cannon has written quite a few books on the subject, having done this for something like 30 years. The one that got me interested in her, is called They Walked With Jesus, and it's still on order with Amazon.com - because it's grouped with the new Harry Potter DVD. So, ironically, I still don't have it yet ... but I did order five others of hers (!), and the two I've started are Jesus and the Essenes, and Keepers of the Garden.

Jesus and the Essenes is provided as an account of a client who discovered a past life just prior to the time of Christ, in the Essene Community of Qumran. Thus far, I am fascinated, and don't find it difficult to believe at all! I always approach accounts like this very carefully, but even if I see things that don't ring true, I'm not going to toss the baby out with the bathwater. Why should I? Probably there is still something of value, and yet, anyone who really wants to know how the early life of Jesus went, should probably read this book. Or, of course, people who just want to stick to their Bibles ... can & should do so. I just find it helpful to see it from a firsthand point of view, which is the perspective one gets when reading a Q&A session between Cannon and her clients, as she writes.

Some of what I've read so far is amazing, and the very real, normal life that is presented is much more keeping with what one would expect, instead of glamorous, unbelievable exaggerations and fantasies. The perspective offered in Jesus and the Essenes is that of Suddi, and his accounts have been arranged out of the order given, and presented in a more chronological order, to make better sense. So far, the Essene Community has been described in detail, including much about what they believed and taught. Also, many things about the relationship (mostly differences) between the Essenes, and the typical Jews/Jewish beliefs & practices of the times, have been presented. These people were absolutely feared by both the Romans and the Jews, because they were regarded as possessing various secrets, and essentially as being a threat to the established order.

That Jesus was most certainly an Essene, or at least had studied (probably lived) at Qumran, and was extremely familiar with their teachings, I increasingly have no doubt. I haven't even gotten to that part of the book yet ... but Suddi has spoken already of some of the prophecies regarding the Messiah. The Essene perspective on all of this, is something I have always been curious about, and I fully expect this book to be enormously helpful - to me - in approaching this. Highly recommended to anyone with a similar interest, and who has not already drawn his or her conclusions ... regarding this whole subject.

There is one thing thus far - and really only this one thing - which raised a yellow flag for me ... even a bright orange one, actually. However, because I couldn't wait, and started another book by Cannon, I have already lowered that flag considerably, and I'm much more comfortable with the issue. I think I already posted it, and it's the notion, as presented in Jesus & the Essenes, that her subject had already recounted 20 different lives, before reaching the time of Christ. Cannon stated that had she stopped there, she would never have discovered the fascinating accounts of Suddi. But my challenge, is to believe that all 20 lives before Suddi, were accurate.

Normally, a Soul would only have had 3 to 5 actual incarnations in that time, if that many. Perhaps 6 or 7 at the outside, in rare cases. I don't mean to sound so certain, but my findings are that we usually reincarnate in a loose cycle of maybe 7 or 800 years, or for many people, a much longer period, of well over 1000 years. Interruptions by violent death, and/or deaths during wartimes (which sweeps us into a very different karma, the karma of the national entity), can bring us immediately back, and my own present life is a case in point. But besides that, I consider my own recent cycle of lives unusual, for various reasons that I think I understand. Still, it runs - 2 lives in 20th century (present included), 1 in 11th-12th century, 1 in 1st century AD, 1 in 1st century BC, 1 in 6th century BC, 1 in 14th century BC, etc. Now that's 7 lives in 3500 years, at least one being due to wartimes. Go figure.

A problem? No. Here's why. In Cannon's book, Keepers of the Garden, she finds herself speaking to a previous incarnation of her client, after awhile ... which wasn't on this planet at all! And this is the subject of the entire rest of the book, although several such lives are covered, perhaps on several different worlds. The one I'm reading about now was supposedly 4th dimensional, or "astral," and for that reason, it's particularly fascinating. I've seldom read accounts of such a phase/dimension of living, and never one from firsthand. This book, too, is amazing. I think it was the first of several which address the topic of non-earth-based Humanities, as learned about via Past Life Regressions, and the other four books are on my coffee table just waiting!

Anyway, what Cannon finds, after learning from her client about 6 or 7 supposed incarnations upon Earth, is that the being she's speaking with (the Soul, essentially, though focussed through the incarnation on another planet - which allows a much clearer communication from the true entity, as a Soul, from spiritual levels ... ) ... this being, only incarnated on Earth once, in its present lifetime. Now this is confusing! What were these other 6 or so lives then??? And thus, the chapter I've just read, is on `imprints.' I have never encountered an idea quite as developed as this one, on the topic of reincarnation, for many years since first reading about it ... but it squares perfectly with all I've read and come to understand about the Akashic Records. In short, for beings of other Humanities, who come to our planet for the next stages of their spiritual development (something I've finally accepted, and God knows why I should ever have even questioned it, or doubted!) ... for such entities, a sudden immersal into our world, via direct incarnation - would be devastating. As this being put it, the extreme shock upon their astral body, and inner mechanism (mind), would result in a paralysis, maybe even death. To witness the violence, the hate, the anger, the war, and the many things that are in several ways unique to our - uh, "special" planet - would, mmmm, just kill them. A part of me weeps to read this, a part of me is very sad, and I know it to be true, I have always known it. But we will make it. I hope.

So in order to give the incoming entity a context, and help it adapt prior to incarnation, imprints from other lives are made available. It could be just a few, it could be that literally hundreds, or thousands are needed. Just depends (presumably on degree of evolution, but that hasn't been stated in that way). And such imprints, are the sum-total, the spiritual accomlishments, or the redeeming, important experiences, of all souls upon our planet. Supposedly, it is even possible for hundreds of different souls to share a given, single imprint, if such was important enough, and helpful for us. And to the entity with the imprint, there is no way to distinguish between that imprint and a life "actually lived."

A fascinating idea, and one that makes perfect sense to me!!! For example, a being that was coming in and needed experience as some type of leader, might require imprints from various kings, tribal leaders, even a leader of a gang of thieves, if it had to reach far enough back. This fits with the notion of the Rays, as a thread found on the Esoteric board, where Ray 1 is that of Power, and of politicians. If it were a Ray 6 Soul, that entity would perhaps need imprints from several lives as devotees, or martyrs, even saints, and religious leaders. It just varies. But the imprints help the being adapt and prepare for the rather challenging incarnation(s) which it is about to undertake upon this planet. And there is even reference to a "special type of spirits" which assist with the choosing of imprints, and the use of them by souls coming in. This is exactly what esoteric teachings indicate by the term Lipika Lords, or Lords of Karma. [Look up
Lipika in this glossary for more info, and also akasa - the very last part of the definition - if interested.]

So much more is said, in that one chapter, and in the rest of the book. It, too, I highly recommend, if folks are open to these ideas. The chapters prior to this one, have described in much detail, and to my great interest, what life is like on two different planets outside of our system. One is in the Sirian System, another ... I forget. Both, are capable of Interstellar travel, and are on "trade routes" that cross our Galaxy - and others. The importance of mining is stressed, and of the trading of medicines that are synthesized from plants found on various planets. War, as physical conflict, is unknown to these civlizations. They are far, far past that point in their evolution. Many books like this may exist, and I do believe that we should approach the whole idea with a healthy dose of skepticism. Having done so, I am so far convinced that Cannon's books are useful, probably fairly accurate, and quite possibly exactly what they appear. It's already changing how I regard the whole topic of Past Life Regression, although much more could be said about the pupose, usefulness, pros and cons, of PLR. I hope to learn more from a friend of mine, who is doing it. We could certainly discuss this, from a very practical viewpoint, since I think it is quite important relevant to the topic of Reincarnation ...

Love & Light,

andrew

[Bandit]

i am just curious, taijasi...do you believe that everyone has had more than one life?
& are you seeing this reincarnation as a process that continues forever?
i have heard many say that we have millions & millions of lives, which i find rather hard to believe & dont see any purpose behind that...so, i just want to see where you stand with it.

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i am just curious, taijasi...do you believe that everyone has had more than one life?
& are you seeing this reincarnation as a process that continues forever?
i have heard many say that we have millions & millions of lives, which i find rather hard to believe & dont see any purpose behind that...so, i just want to see where you stand with it.

Yes, and no, Bandit, in that order.

I do believe ... that Reincarnation is a subset of the 2nd Great Law governing all of Cosmos. My understanding and belief, is that every being in Cosmos is subject to this Great Law, although its various sub-laws are increasingly transcended, as we gain experience. This, however, is the Law of Love, and therefore our effort is to learn more and cooperate with this Law governing our existence, and not to fight it. It's lowest expressions, or the ones which keep ultimate order down here on planet Earth (and all planets in outward expression) ... includes Cause & Effect - As ye sow, so shall ye reap; As ye mete it out, so shall it be meted out unto you - or Karma, in the East, with the twin Doctrine of Rebirth, or the method by which all souls are destined to attain, and are called toward perfection.

As such, I do not believe that any Entity, whom & which is manifest in Cosmos, is "free" of that Law of Love, in an ultimate sense, but one does accomplish, on higher & higher turns of the spiral, always answering more fully and with greater success, to the outstretched arm of Deity. Thus, relative to Earth, and eventually to any planet in outward, physical expression, we do stop incarnating. The relative number of lives may depend per entity, varying certainly for those of other evolutions - or Humanities of other planets - but even here on Earth it can vary. Many, many souls (3/5ths) are presumed to have begun their evolution as Humans only some ~18 million years ago, on this planet. Even during that time, not every cycle, phase, or period of evolution would have been productive, or conducive for a given soul to incarnate, therefore, at most, perhaps a few thousands, or at best tens of thousands of lives, might have been lived. The actual number, is almost irrelevant. We may consider 99% of them as sealed to us, for all intents & purposes. To recover them, whether through PLR, or other means, may be considered as a great misfortune.

Why? Because they represent our evolution as "animal-men," and would only be revolting to us now - not helpul in any way! The Soul is concerned only with the most recent cycle of lives, often in a series of 7, and also with preparations for its next incarnation or two. And clearly, its immediate focus, in outward terms, is the present incarnation, although esotericists try to bear in mind that relatively speaking, the "portion" or the Soul's awareness (which is misleading, since the nature of Soul consciousness is itself wholistic & Unifying) ... the "portion" which is directed on the outward personality, might be considered 1% - of it's true and total awareness. The Soul is itself understood to be undergoing a different evolution entirely, on one of those higher turns of the spiral - still technically subject to "incarnation" or Rebirth. The nature of its incarnation, however, though the embodiment of Sacrifice and Love, from our perspective ... is such that for the Soul, there is no suffering as we know it, nor separateness, nor anger, hate, confusion, delusion, or any of the woes we know of in the "three lower worlds" of mortal existence. The Soul has long ago attained, via human incarnation on long-past planets (in some cases in prior Solar cycles) ... to Immortality, and is relatively Perfect, from our point of view. It is already what esotericists call a Master, and thus it is said, truly, that the Soul and the Master are one.

And that is why it is also spoken of as the "Christ principle," or the Christ within. Its goal, which is much more inclusive than simply assisting us, which is not even required of it, but is only a willing sacrifice, is to attain yet a higher form of freedom, by compliance with Spiritual Will - and when we have attained to a certain great expansion of consciousness (the one to which Jesus attained, and St. Paul after him, at the "Conversion") - upon that attainment, the Soul is said to "leave us," and assume the Higher Way of evolution. It leaves the planetary realm altogether, never to return. Even for those who sacrifice and stay, the Masters of esoteric teachings, Earth Service is not permanent. It is but a willing sacrifice, the trading of one's earned Nirvana - the most blissful "heaven" we could conceive - for ... sighhh. For endless toil, until enough of Humanity are able to assume the ranks of Co-Stewardship of the planet.

The Buddha, for example, has all but left connection with the Earth, and exoterically He is said to have taken his Maha-Para-Nirvana (beyond the Great - Nirvana). But esoterically, He is said to return each year at the Wesak Festival, as He has done for hundreds of years, to give His Blessing to the Christ and Assembled Host. The entire 8-minute ceremony is so potent and the Blessing is so great, that this is all that the assembly can withstand of His tremendous force - and it remains with us for an entire year, being carefully distributed to those who are receptive ... and stepped down accordingly. But this will not go on forever, and will soon cease, the moment Christ's Reappearance is an established fact.

And so, too, our cycle of lives is said to end, as early as the arhat stage (Jesus, St. Paul, countless others), if we so choose. But that is not our goal. Nor is full Buddhahood, although that might be required in a distant cycle. Eventually, all are destined for that. Our goal on this planet, is said to be somewhere in between, and technically the last 2 or 3 lives that are required to reach that Liberation/Salvation - are voluntary. But if we think of them as the proverbial icing on the cake, why would we even imagine not completing the cycle??? Short answer - because already, as an arhat, one has attained to the Nirvanic bliss - and that Peace which Passeth Understanding, as a permanent state. Not every Soul is prepared, or at that moment, capable, of withstanding the call to enter into Bliss. And to enter it is fine, since the Soul a such - is able to move on, and continue its Higher evolution, while we enter Nirvana ... and emerge only later, in order to complete the cycle. The choice made by our Souls was to do so not by direct incarnation, as it were, but by "loaning us" a portion of themselves - by directly providing their "Christ Principle" to us, until our own Christ Princple could be awakened & developed ... which is our immediate attention. This is beyond intellect, although Higher Mind is where the Soul focuses, since it is by this means that we approach the Divine.

The simplest answer to your question ... is a symbolic teaching presented 150 years or so ago. It was said that we have a total of 777 symbolic incarnations - not literal. Of these, the first 700 might be thought of as outwardly focused, and deal mostly with physical evolution, and survival. This can be considered the Hall of Ignorance. For the next 70 lives, our focus shifts to the level of the emotions, and is still exceedingly self-centered, yet our interests become more cultural & broadened, as we traverse the Hall of Learning. The final Seven lives, which can literally be seven, or perhaps twice that many, are called the Hall of Wisdom, and here the Soul learns Love, and Service. We focus on others, and realize that our existence as a separated individual is the Great Illusion. We focus increasingly on the purpose & nature of our existence, and an entire reorientation towards life begins to take place. At this point, once either chooses or rejects the opportunity to greatly hasten one's spiritual evolution, and if one is capable of making the extreme sacrifices necessary, and living a life of utmost discipline, strictest purity, and selfless service to others, then eventually, esoteric training can begin.

Nevertheless the Goal of our evolution, is considered as one & the same for all souls. It is only a question of when, not whether. And another thing, esoterically there are 60 billion human souls, not 6 billion. Obviously then, only 1/10th are presently in incarnation, although I've read an account of beings from other worlds where the population density was dozens of times greater than it is here. The difference? The were very closely knit within each other's lives, and their Communities - in which everyone lived - were like the most intimate of families. Isolation was unknown to them, and their lives were governed by the utmost in efficiency. Perhaps, one day, that is our future, as well. Not, I trust, in the next few hundred years ...

There's my essay of the day. You know what they say, ask a simple question ... (get a gosh-awful long answer!). bah. It's just one of the most fascinating - topics, or themes of our existence. Couldn't resist ...

cheers,

andrew

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Yes, and no, Bandit, in that order.

I do believe ... that Reincarnation is a subset of the 2nd Great Law governing all of Cosmos. My understanding and belief, is that every being in Cosmos is subject to this Great Law, although its various sub-laws are increasingly transcended, as we gain experience. This, however, is the Law of Love, and therefore our effort is to learn more and cooperate with this Law governing our existence, and not to fight it. It's lowest expressions, or the ones which keep ultimate order down here on planet Earth (and all planets in outward expression) ... includes Cause & Effect - As ye sow, so shall ye reap; As ye mete it out, so shall it be meted out unto you - or Karma, in the East, with the twin Doctrine of Rebirth, or the method by which all souls are destined to attain, and are called toward perfection.


There's my essay of the day. You know what they say, ask a simple question ... (get a gosh-awful long answer!). bah. It's just one of the most fascinating - topics, or themes of our existence. Couldn't resist ...

cheers,

andrew

ummm. ok. that short/long essay just short circuited me.
I BELIEVE ...if you believe that way, then you should be allowed to believe like that.
have a nice weekend

[gteeter]

Hmm, How would you explain the cells in Hitler or Stalin? If your premise is true, we could eliminate all the thousands of wars that have gone before. The question I have for you is God Holy? The second question ... What happened to the world and what happened to man to get us in this situation? If this spirit is always in all of us ... something really went wrong ... What happened?

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by gteeter

Hmm, How would you explain the cells in Hitler or Stalin? If your premise is true, we could eliminate all the thousands of wars that have gone before. The question I have for you is God Holy? The second question ... What happened to the world and what happened to man to get us in this situation? If this spirit is always in all of us ... something really went wrong ... What happened?

Stalin & Hitler presumably both had a very great challenge before them, as individual souls, since obviously they were tasked with a very heavy karma. The opportunity was provided to work for their own spiritual betterment, and for the betterment of those around them. They would seem to have fallen short - of that challenge.

Sadly, Hitler went very far astray, and my own understanding is ... that just as some individuals demonstrate extreme positive spiritual potential, and are even able to incarnate certain Divine Ideas and Ideals ... so also, is the reverse true. Not only did planetary evil come to obsess, and literally possess Hitler, but evil forces that should not have even found expression upon our planet became focused through him, and his inner circle. This was most unfortunate, and was very nearly disastrous to Earth's entire material evolution. As an esotericist, I do not believe in "Divine Intervention" as such. And yet, the events that led to the Allied Powers prevailing in WWII, are said to be exactly that - unexpected Divine Assistance, in a manner that was totally unforseen. Yet perhaps, and presumably, this was due to the aid being received by the Axis Group, from sources of energy that should not have been tapped. That Door needed to be closed, and so it has.

We cannot eliminate wars until enough of our Human family learns the needlessness of it all, and can see from experience that living a life of peaceful cooperation is possible (and necessary, for a sustainable society). As of yet, too few Souls have taken a stand, esoterically speaking. The world is still swayed, and outwardly ruled, by the power-mongers, and those of separative, greedy attitudes.

I believe that God is Holy, as is every atom of His Creation. While on the one hand it is not ours to judge, we are nevertheless intuitively able to discern that the Divine manifests itself in various grades, or degrees. The atom represents the Divine Life in perfect latency, although on its on level, the manifestation is complete (or can be, for certain types of the most highly evolved atoms! - a circular definition, I realize). I believe that life evolves through the mineral, vegetable, animal, Human, and Spiritual Kingdoms, thence onward - through Infinity. Increasingly, the Divine Life awakens, knows itself, first as individuals, then via groups, and then as a Unity which only widens. Synthesis occurs, yet never is the true self lost, for it is like the proverbial carrot on the stick, and we are drawn onward, deeper & deeper within.

Yes, I do agree, our spiritual (and material) evolution is off track. As esotericists say, the Plan is as yet, not fully restored, on Earth. But it is increasingly being restored. And we are very, very close to reaching some of the goals that are immediately before us. In order to understand where things got off track, you would need to be more specific in your question. How far back do you wanna go?

Seriously though ... a Christian might answer, Original Sin, and in those two words, feel that enough has been said. I have never bought that, and long, long ago I explored the subject in enough depth to find answers that were much more helpful - for me. My answers have not changed over the years, but I have certainly learned more, added to my understanding, adjusted my perspective many times - often letting go of what no longer served a useful purpose in my thinking ... and thus I now have a much more synthetic understanding, though perhaps more questions than ever! And to me, that's a good sign!

Short answer, in case this might make some sense: I believe that Humanity erred considerably during Atlantean times. Several million years ago, we strayed from the Divine Plan which God intended for us, becoming selfish, materially-focused, vain, and quite self-righteous. The priesthood and leaders of the time, failed in their appointed task, and even though our Divine Guides literally walked openly among us ... we came to shun them. This might be seen as ironic, yet it was due to a "clogging" of our spiritual perceptions, which were very emotionally-focused, and lacked as yet the balancing faculties of Intellect. For a long time, the Spiritual Stewards of the the race continued to assist us, but eventually they were forced to withdraw into the Inner Worlds. There, they remain, and I've been working on a post to the Esoteric forum on The Elder Brothers of Humanity, which says more about this.

I believe that our Elder Brothers have always been with us, from pre-Atlantis, unto the present day. In fact, They are in the very process of Reappearing, or Externalizing, many having taken physical incarnation, and many gathering their groups of disciples on the physical plane - which is something that has not been possible to this degree for perhaps a million years. Coincident with the Externalization of the Spiritual Brotherhood (which is also a Sisterhood, the term isn't meant to be sexist) ... is also the Reappearance of the Christ, and the Restoration of the Mysteries. We are seeing this occur, and the Christ's Reappearance can even be said to be in the latter stages, viewed esoterically.

All of these events, including the transiting of our planet out of the sign of Pisces and into Aquarius (an astronomical fact, and not simply an astrological idea), are assisting us tremendously, in terms of our spiritual evolution at this time. New energies, some of which have never reached our planet - ever! - are entering on spiritual levels, and also on material levels. There is tremendous upheaval, yet much of this can be understood as the Father's Broom, sweeping the floor in preparation, to speak in Christian terms.

And great change, is imminent! Not looked for, in terms of some sudden event, or miraculuous translation of people - or even conditions, but rather ... as evidenced in the stimulation of the Will-to-Good, of the principle of Unconditional Love, and Brotherhood, as felt among people worldwide in increasing degree, and in a rapid awakening to the idea that Humanity has a Purpose, which includes every single evolving soul therein, and yet which also transcends Humanity, embracing the entire Planet, with all its Kingdoms of Life, as One! Millions of people across the globe will attest to this, each in his or her own way, yet the realization, and the increasing sense of expectancy, is Universal.

Part of the Great Invocation, which millions of people use worldwide as Christ's own Prayer, goes thus:

From the center which we call the race of men,
Let the Plan of Love and Light work out,
And may it seal the door where evil dwells.

Let Light and Love and Power restore the Plan on Earth.

Now one does not need to follow any particular spritual tradition to use the Great Invocation. It has been used worldwide by people of all faiths, backgrounds, and religious traditions, for more than 60 years ... and has been translated into nearly 75 languages. I consider it a very practical form of Service which we may render - to speed the coming of the World Teacher (by whatever name we may call Him).

If the question is asked - was it during Atlantis that Humanity got off track from the Divine Plan, my understanding would lead me to answer, no. Even prior to that, many millions of years ago, there was a conflict that was beginning to affect Humanity, which was not yet present in this cycle before that time (~18 million years ago). But only in Atlantean times did the deepest incarnation of the Human Race as a whole, occur. We have now passed that midway point, and are rapidly moving closer to safety. But, we aren't out of hot water yet ... and thus the great need at present. [One can trace the root of planetary evil to a prior Maha-Manvantara, or Great cycle of Earth's evolution, while systemic evil is certainly belonging to another Kalpa, or a previous Solar Cycle. This is a bit much to go into ... ]

I think part of the difficulty, in considering that our evolution is off track, is that it tends to imply that somehow God is flawed, imperfect, and quite fallible - prone to signficiant mistakes. This is certainly not meant, from the human perspective, but we tend to conceive of the Divine in human terms, as you have even pointed out. It is difficult not to anthropomorphize. I think that is why Hylozoism takes a little getting used to ... the notion that God, too, Incarnates. We are indeed, like cells within the body (the brain) of God. The other Kingdoms are other parts of His body, the Spiritual Stewards of the Planet are His Heart, and God the Father, as the Christian refers to Him, is focused within the Head, the center of Will. So vast a being, as I have come to understand God ... is really not outwardly focused in His awareness. To an extent, yes, but ask yourself - how much attention do you normally pay, to the coordination of your brain, let alone the various (individual) cells therein? Any? Some? None? All likely answers, but most of us just grab a good cuppa joe, and go! Or maybe we meditate (so does God), and maybe we try to eat a healthy diet, and get good rest. So does God.

Do you talk to your individual brain cells? ahem ... There you have it.

Things are really not so off track. This is something that we can ofttimes overlook, or understandably - yet mistakenly - conclude, as we see the imperfect world around us. But immense changes are underway, and Earth will not always be a planet torn by wars, hatred, ignorance, pollution, addictions, and unnecessary suffering. It depends on how much, and in what numbers, we are willing to cooperate. News flash for the folks who think they have proprietary rights on the "operating manual." You don't.

Love, Light & Peace,

andrew

[didymus]

I'm throwing this out there for feedback, particularly from Taijasi (because you seem to be very knowledgable in this subject) and of course to anyone else out there interested. I am reading some of the transcripts and readings of Edgar Cayce. For those not familiar with him, he was a man that was very intuitive. He made many psychic predictions that came true, spoke in tongues while in deep meditation , saw his own past lives along with a number of other peoples. He seemed to incorporate aspects of Christianity that I like alot into his beliefs. Namely forgiveness vs. karma, love and that the Christ inhabited Jesus' physical body because Jesus was able to transcend so much here in the earthly realm as to make a pure vessel to house the Christ.

I like this because the concept of Karma and reincarnation alone is somewhat depressing to me. It leads one to believe that he can never pay back the debts owed from previous incarnations here on earth and that as hard as one tries here he'll fall short and have to pay back more in the next life. Edgar combines the belief in reincarnation along with forgiveness and God's grace. This leads me to many questions I hold regarding grace and who gets it. Obviously everyone is open to God's grace but not everyone receives it or accepts it. I came to know God's grace through a prolonged period of suffering which led me to reach out to God for help. This wasn't by any virtue within me, it was just plain survival; the drowning man reaching out for the life preserver. God answered swiftly(in retrospect). My question is then, when does karma stop and grace begin or viceversa? Why would one receive God's grace and another not? God's grace is open to all but some don't accept it. You see some folks that die as angry and bitter as they were while alive. Maybe one's fulfillment of karma is directly related to one's ability to accept the grace offered. So one can't tell by looking at someone whether the problems and issues experienced will ever lead to God's grace in this lifetime or the next.

The idea of karma and reincarnation makes alot of sense to me and answers alot of questions as to why some people seem to suffer so greatly and others seem to go through life as if it was easy. The problems I'm talking of here go far beyond the realms of America's suburbs. I have seen people with lives and situations that would make you dizzy( as I'm sure others of you have also) Not that there aren't problems and severe suffering in the "burbs". If we are eternal spirits housed in physical bodies and we assume that our spirit is here for the learning and possible repayment of past debt, what of our physical blood lines to family? Some believe that we children pay for our parents and grandparents debts if they didn't live by spiritual and moral principles. I don't know exactly what i'm trying to ask but I see myself at a crossroad here.

[Silverbackman]

I myself am a pretty hardcore skeptic and follower of science, so it may come to a surprise to you that I believe in reincarnation. Yes I do, because it is to me the best logical explanation we have on what happens after death. All others do not make any sense.

So why didn't I come to the conclusion that many atheists come to in that there is no life but the one we currently live? To me it makes no sense. Atheists claim that everything happens by chance and our lives are insignificant compared to the everything in this giant universe. However this life being our only clearly creates importance for this life. Why would 70-100 years on Earth be our only life without it being important. That makes no sense.

But my definition of reincarnation maybe a bit different from the Eastern reincarnation. To me reincarnation is an eternal cycle. It has no meaning, it just does have meaning. Ok that may seem confusing but basically I doubt there is a concrete reason why reincarnation has to have an omnibenevolent reason. Perhaps the universal conscious (God) made it the eternal cycle because it looked harmonious to him. Who knows? No one.

With that said I don't believe karma, although I used too. This may seem strange, as most people who believe in reincarnation believe karma. To me karma cannot exist unless we ourselves are gods. In other words who defines what is considered good and bad under karma? Humans do. We have no idea what God visions as good or evil. Some people believe putting homosexuals to death is moral, while others believe it is unjustified murder. So who is right? One would logically conclude that the one that advocates peace and tolerance towards homosexuals are the moral ones but who are we to claim this?

Morality is a concept created by humankind. Morality is very irreverent. However, this does not mean there is no global (universal for our planet) moral standard. I do believe that there are moralities that most of humankind will agree upon and that should be the morality we should follow. However this morality comes from us and it is superstitious to claim otherwise because there is no proof. I can create some hateful morality and claim this is God's universal law but it doesn't make it anymore so than a more agreed upon universal morality. Love, hate, greed, ect. are all human traits used to describe the behavior of homo sapiens. A sentient being across the universe may have totally different traits of the mind or what they consider good and evil.

Anyways about reincarnation. Besides knowing for sure our life cannot be important because 70-100 years on this planet is insignificant compared to the infinite unchanging reality, reincarnation makes sense to explain what happens to consciousness when you die.

So what exactly do I mean by consciousness? I don't mean the memory of people or any emotions. That is all a product of the physical body. Yes so with that said I believe the past-life experiences may in fact be illusions. How can you receive the memory of a past life when you do not have the brain of this past life? Think about it, what is in charge of memory? Memory is a product of the physical organ called the brain. Each wrinkle on our brain as well each certian other pars of it may represent a different memory. Are memories are within our brain and the physical brain is also the source of emotions and morality. So how can I from this life experience someone else's memory without their brain? I need their brain to know their memory because memory is from the brain.

The only essence I believe cannot be explained by physical theories is nothing more than conscious awareness. Awareness maybe something mankind can never create unless he find the physical chemicals that make up it. In other words we can create a very life-like robot but does it necessarily have a conscious awareness? If humankind didn't a conscious awareness then humankind would be just like robots. Programmed to look real but not real at all. But we all know that we do have awareness. This awareness if the fundamentals of the mind/soul IMHO. It is the only thing that remains eternal and can exist in any brain or host regardless on the emotions of the brain it inhabits.

Before we lived and after we live this life our conscious awareness (soul) will continue to travel. Since in my opinion the universe/multiverse/omniverse is infinite, the chances of returning to Earth are low. In fact I am almost certain my conscious awareness will inhabit a being from a totally different solar system, or another galaxy. Who knows, our conscious reality may even travel to another universe where reality is vastly different from our own (who knows maybe a 2D universe )!

[didymus]

I have stumbled across some interesting arguements regarding reincarnation in the Bible. These are pointed out by Edgar Cayce;

Proverbs 8 22-31- The Lord created me first of all, the first of his works, long ago. I was made in the very beginning, at the first, before the world began. I was born before the oceans, when there were no springs of water. I was born before the mountains, before the hills were set in place, before God made the earth and the fields or even the first handful of soil. I was there when he set the sky in place, when he stretched the horizon across the ocean, when he placed the clouds in the sky, when he opened the springs of the ocean and he ordered the waters of the sea to rise no further than he said. I was there when he laid the earth's foundations. I was beside him like an architect, I was his daily source of joy, always happy in his presence-- happy with the world and pleaesd with the human race ( KJV reads happy with the Sons of Man)

then we have; The Wisdom of Solomon 8: 19-20 ( found in Catholic version of the Bible)
I had a pleasant personaliy even as a child. I had been fortunate enough to receive a good soul, or rather was given a sound body to live in because I was already good. Still, I realized that I would never receive Wisdom unless God gave her to me- ans knowing that only God could give her to me was itself a sign of understanding. So I prayed, begging the Lord with all my heart.

[taijasi]

I just watched (and recorded) a neat movie that involves reincarnation, one I'd never seen before. Chances Are, with Cybill Shepherd and Robert Downey, Jr., from 1989. It was fairly light-hearted all the way through, mostly a love story, and quite funny in parts. Kind of an interesting take on things, and I'm wondering if anyone has seen it.

Of course, the list of movies that explore reincarnation is huge ... but among the more memorable ones for me, are Defending Your Life (Albert Brooks), The Three Lives of Thomasina (about a cat! - I must've seen it 20 years ago!) .... and Dead Again (a true thriller, with plot twists, and definitely worth seeing). Robert Downey, Jr. shows up again in a great movie called Heart and Souls, which I also highly recommend, although it's not really about reincarnation per se. What Dreams May Come is along the same lines, having more to do with the afterlife, but reincarnation does factor in, as Robin Williams learns.

IMDB actually lists 565 titles with reincarnation keyword. For the movie buffs out there, have fun!

andrew

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by didymus

I have stumbled across some interesting arguements regarding reincarnation in the Bible. These are pointed out by Edgar Cayce;

Proverbs 8 22-31- The Lord created me first of all, the first of his works, long ago. I was made in the very beginning, at the first, before the world began. I was born before the oceans, when there were no springs of water. I was born before the mountains, before the hills were set in place, before God made the earth and the fields or even the first handful of soil. I was there when he set the sky in place, when he stretched the horizon across the ocean, when he placed the clouds in the sky, when he opened the springs of the ocean and he ordered the waters of the sea to rise no further than he said. I was there when he laid the earth's foundations. I was beside him like an architect, I was his daily source of joy, always happy in his presence-- happy with the world and pleaesd with the human race ( KJV reads happy with the Sons of Man)

then we have; The Wisdom of Solomon 8: 19-20 ( found in Catholic version of the Bible)
I had a pleasant personaliy even as a child. I had been fortunate enough to receive a good soul, or rather was given a sound body to live in because I was already good. Still, I realized that I would never receive Wisdom unless God gave her to me- ans knowing that only God could give her to me was itself a sign of understanding. So I prayed, begging the Lord with all my heart.

In Proverbs Didymus, the speaker is "Wisdom". In Solomon, the speaker is Solomon.

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi