Regarding heresy

[wil]

Originally Posted by Thomas

... but I think we're well off the track of heresy. You teach a bible class. I assume you do so under some kind of authority? Or at least some commonality of teaching? The parents have a good idea of the message you're putting across? What happens when someone says, "No, Jesus was bisexual, married to the Magdalene and in a gay relationship with John." ... what then?

Great question and totally at the heart of the discussion.

Most appear to have their level of what is heretical...and that boundary lies just below their level of 'orthodoxy'.

In my case when confronted with a question like you proposed whether from the adults or teens I deal with is...

'This is a perfect opportunity to explore that, and I am glad you brought that up, we don't have the time or information in this class, but if you'll do your research, and I'll do mine...Anyone else want to get involved in this?..Ok let's set a date when we will have our information compiled and we'll make this a class topic. Do you think we ought to email some of the information we are bringing so everyone can be upto speed prior to class?'

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Dondi

But I have known many Catholics in my life that seem to have a marginal form of spirituality. They go to church, they go to confession, but they play the devil the rest of the week, drinking, gambling, cursing, etc. But it seems that they hide behind the doors of the Church as if the Church affords them some sort of immunity. And for the most part, they are ignorant on scriptures.

The Baptist teens fair better than the Catholic teens. It is apparent that the Catholic kids do not have a through understanding of scriptures, even though a majority of them go to Catholic schools. I wonder what they are being taught.

Now, I've read some of the catachism that the Church espouses. And they seem more geared to learning the traditions of the Church, rather than exegesis of biblical doctrines.

Well, I guess even if the Catholics are poor at understanding Christianity, you find ignorance in all groups of Christians across the denominations. There is this attitude that "I know what Christianity is about, I don't really need to study it."

There are Muslims who at least appear to know more about the Bible than Christians.

Originally Posted by Dondi

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding this. Frankly, I see the rituals and sacraments rather mechanical, that if you just go through the motions, your good to go. It seems like a lot of hoops one must jump through to get to God. But it almost seems that all these hoops defeats the purpose of having an intimate relationship with God. If we are taught that we need to go through priests, angels, and Mary to get to God, where is the intimacy in that? Seems like a lot of middle man to me.

But . . . then again, similar things happen in other churches/denominations where there is this "copy cat" or "follow the leader" mentality where people who attend church simply do what their leaders on the pulpit/stage/raised platform/speaker on the microphone tell them.

How many of us try to figure it out for ourselves? How many of us believe we can't do better than following the formulas given to us by others?

Regarding what Seattlegal said, how many of us try to discover our place in God's spiritual temple?

Originally Posted by Thomas

Many people express an 'intimate relationship with God' which is nothing more than an intimate relationship with their own egos.

I would also suggest ther's more to an 'intimate relationship with God' than meets the eye, especially when we are so professed at deluding ourselves as to who God is, or what God wants, or what God is obliged to put up with.

The role of priest is teacher and guide. Angels, Mary, saints, etc. are intercessors, not mediators or middle-men.

But here's the problem -- How can one know if by seeking wisdom from these angels and saints, we are actually seeking an intimate relationship with their egos and not God?

If our egos are a stumbling block and inhibit us from seeing God, then I'd have to conclude that it's impossible to reach God because our lives are driven by our egos. What do we do? How can God help us with this problem? But God must somehow have a way of reaching us despite our need to fulfil our egos.

I don't think of Christianity as a religion about intercession. It's about signposts. Jesus was the first signpost. After him came the saints and the apostles. They shared Christ. They shared their journeys. They shared their personalities, life experiences and identities. People followed their example, pursuing their own identities, to find the place where they belonged in the spiritual temple mentioned in 2 Peter 2:5.

The signposts moved on. Other signposts were set up. These signposts met other signposts. Then all the signposts walked together arm in arm, pursuing the same goal. These signposts met more people and turned them into signposts.

Just a thought on egos.

I don't believe it's always "egotistical" to pursue one's individual identity. It may be seen as selfish, but not always "wrong." We all have an individual identity. Christianity, though isn't just about individuals, but also about community. As Christians from all around the world, we have a collective identity.

I think the question is whether we pursue this identity without concern for others, and only ourselves. If our pursuit of this "identity" is a self-absorbed obsession, then I would say that it is "egotistical" in the sense that our path is unilateral and we are "going it alone." We are not interested in how our life contributes to the collective identity of Christians around the world. Or perhaps we're just out there to impress people with our fancy words? If in our pursuit of our identity we are submitting to what we believe is our unique place in the collective identity of Christians around the world then that selfishness is not self-absorbed and unilateral, let alone egotistical.

I agree that pursuing one's identity is "selfish" but not necessarily egotistical in the sense that it's not always unilateral (going it alone) and self-absorbed. It may be someone saying, "God, this is my life. I believe this is what I need and what I believe you want from me. This is for you." What makes it non-egotistical is that it is personal and it is an act of devotion to God. It's a question of where the heart is.

Heresy may be thought of as dissent from the "collective identity" of Christians around the world, but I guess you'd also have to consider the fact that many churches model themselves on an "identity" that isn't centred on Christ. They may claim that so-and-so is a heretic on the basis that he/she had rebelled against that identity but since it's not the identity of Christ we can't really accuse them of "blaspheming" against Christianity.

That's the thing about heresy. It depends mostly on our perceptions. While the "heretic" may be wrong, it doesn't really help anyone if the "established authority" condemning the "heretic" doesn't know Christ any better. Calling someone a heretic helps nobody when Christianity itself is misunderstood. Ultimately, the purpose of Christianity is not a religion where you get people to follow a book of rules or get people to align themselves to your way of seeing things. The goal of Christianity is to be a signpost for people who know how to read your signs.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I don't believe it's always "egotistical" to pursue one's individual identity. It may be seen as selfish, but not always "wrong." We all have an individual identity. Christianity, though isn't just about individuals, but also about community. As Christians from all around the world, we have a collective identity.

I think you bring out an excellent point. I think in pursuing our own identity, we would have to be found in Christ.

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it." - Mark 8:35

The whole point of being in Christ is to actually look beyond our egos and find ourselves in the will of God. It is a battle of wills: our ego against the ego that God would have us conform to, that is Christ's. This is the First Commandment: Love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.

In the collective identity, we too are battling egos, but now we are up against our fellow believers. The binding force that brings us together is collectively being in Christ. This is the Second Commandment: Love thy neighbor as thyself. The interesting thing here is how we love ourselves. well, that brings us back to the First Commandment. And the cycle goes on until we reach the potential set before us.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

There are Muslims who at least appear to know more about the Bible than Christians.

Oh my, brings back memories. A number of years ago teaching Sunday School, 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. One of the congregation brings in her granddaughters, her son's family was in town. Grandma was raised Baptist, she and her husband converted to Islam in the 60's, she came back to Christianity, as did one of her sons, the other son remained a Muslim, his daughters being raised Muslim, going to a religious school.

I took the opportunity to allow them to discuss their religion and practices. It became quickly apparent that they knew the bible stories better than our kids. At that age we were just leaving the story books and actually looking a little more at scripture...these kids knew the scriptural stories...not the edited picture book stories. Then they got into prayer and fasting quite enlightening for all.

I suppose in many circles allowing that discussion to happen would have been quite heretical.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by wil

Oh my, brings back memories. A number of years ago teaching Sunday School, 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. One of the congregation brings in her granddaughters, her son's family was in town. Grandma was raised Baptist, she and her husband converted to Islam in the 60's, she came back to Christianity, as did one of her sons, the other son remained a Muslim, his daughters being raised Muslim, going to a religious school.

I took the opportunity to allow them to discuss their religion and practices. It became quickly apparent that they knew the bible stories better than our kids. At that age we were just leaving the story books and actually looking a little more at scripture...these kids knew the scriptural stories...not the edited picture book stories. Then they got into prayer and fasting quite enlightening for all.

I suppose in many circles allowing that discussion to happen would have been quite heretical.

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..." - Hosea 4:6

That is sad.