Refutation of Pauline Controversy

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Why?, emBarAssed by all the BullSh!t?

Yeah, I get a chuckle out of it too.

not at all my friend. I too have some education...just doesn't compare to living life.

BTW hope you and your wife are well.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

not at all my friend. I too have some education...just doesn't compare to living life.

BTW hope you and your wife are well.

Well, indeed. Thanks for asking. I hope you and yours are well too!

About living life, gotta agree. I've met cab drivers with college degrees, what a waste of an education....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Well, indeed. Thanks for asking. I hope you and yours are well too!

About living life, gotta agree. I've met cab drivers with college degrees, what a waste of an education....

Really? They got your attention didn't they?...

Pax

[juantoo3]

Yep. Jaded me to the value of a college education for far too many years.

The old man told me when I was a kid; "a college degree and a buck will get you a cup of coffee..."

Trouble is, I didn't hear the second part; "it's what you do with it that matters." Imagine my surprize, especially since it seems now you can't get even a minimum wage job without a degree, at least around here. Unless you don't mind driving truck for a living (done that too). Since my physical health ain't what it used to be, I gotta work with my head now. Sometimes I don't like it, I wish I was still out there building houses or driving truck, being physical. It's simply not an option for me anymore. And I don't feel right drawing disability...I can still do, just not what I used to. I've always been a closet student, pursuing subjects that interest me. Getting my sheepskin I was able to put some of that to use.

[juantoo3]

bump in honor of Mr. Garaffa's return.

[Dondi]

I am hopeful that Victor's return will mean that he is willing to continue to address the issues his article has raised. If that's the case, I'd like to focus on the aspect of 'The Law', since that seems to be a prime concern of his. I believe that if we are going to go any further on this topic we must define what 'The Law' is and what is it's purpose.

'The Law' in question is the Mosaic Law as laid down in the Pentatuech, the first five books of the Hebrew bible. Specifically, it is those set of instructions and commandments given to God to Moses. The observable Law is contained in a set of 613 commandments, according to Judaism, at least in what is called the written Torah, though I suppose the Torah also includes the narrative portions as well as the practical law.

The question then arises, what is the purpose of this Law? We cannot separate the Mosiac Law out of the context of whence it came, that is through the formation of the nation of Israel. Recall that the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob spent 400+ years in captivity in Egypt. And that the descendants identified themselves in accordance to the sons of Jacob, also named Israel (hence the name Israelites), which formed the Twelve Tribes. Now having been in Egypt for that long, and necessarily seeing several generations of sons living and dying in that environment, there would have been no doubt a heavily influence of Egyptian culture thrusted upon the Israel (bearing in mind that I'm following the textual account). That is not necessaily a bad thing, for the Egypt was rich in culture and advanced in many areas: Art, agriculture, trade, literature, mathemetics, medicine, military organization and tactics, etc, etc. Indeed, it's likely that many of these skills were beneficial when the Israelites constructed the Tabernacle and such when they struck out on their own. And in addition to this they were also subject to Egyptian Law.

At the risk of compromising accuracy, I refer to a portion of Wiki (such a solid source of info, I know) that discusses the legal system of Ancient Egypt, bearing in mind that anything in Wiki is subject to 'self-correction':

"The head of the legal system was officially the pharaoh, who was responsible for enacting laws, delivering justice, and maintaining law and order, a concept the ancient Egyptians referred to as Ma'at.[67] Although no legal codes from ancient Egypt survive, court documents show that Egyptian law was based on a common-sense view of right and wrong that emphasized reaching agreements and resolving conflicts rather than strictly adhering to a complicated set of statutes.[76] Local councils of elders, known as Kenbet in the New Kingdom, were responsible for ruling in court cases involving small claims and minor disputes.[67] More serious cases involving murder, major land transactions, and tomb robbery were referred to the Great Kenbet, over which the vizier or pharaoh presided. Plaintiffs and defendants were expected to represent themselves and were required to swear an oath that they had told the truth. In some cases, the state took on both the role of prosecutor and judge, and it could torture the accused with beatings to obtain a confession and the names of any co-conspirators. Whether the charges were trivial or serious, court scribes documented the complaint, testimony, and verdict of the case for future reference.[77]
Punishment for minor crimes involved either imposition of fines, beatings, facial mutilation, or exile, depending on the severity of the offense. Serious crimes such as murder and tomb robbery were punished by execution, carried out by decapitation, drowning, or impaling the criminal on a stake. Punishment could also be extended to the criminal's family.[67] Beginning in the New Kingdom, oracles played a major role in the legal system, dispensing justice in both civil and criminal cases. The procedure was to ask the god a "yes" or "no" question concerning the right or wrong of an issue. The god, carried by a number of priests, rendered judgment by choosing one or the other, moving forward or backward, or pointing to one of the answers written on a piece of papyrus or an ostracon.[78]"

Source: Wiki - Ancient Egypt - Legal System

Evidently, if this article is accurate, the Egypts followed a loose set of laws, yet trangressions of such could lead to dire consequences, depending on the infraction.

In addition to this legal system, one must consider the religious aspect of Egypt that were heavily prevalent. Pharaonic rule was based on the divine right of kings. In the Old Kingdom, the Pharoah was worshiped as a deity, but by the time of Israel's captivity, worship was relegated to the Egyptian gods, in which a sect of priests used oracles to communicate to the gods on behalf of the pharaoh. (It is interesting to note that during the New Kingdom period, for a brief time Egypt consolidated their gods to a monothiestic system). Religious rituals were woven with daily ceremonials, feasts, and celebrations set monthly and seasonally. Of interest, the Pharoah was the only one who could 'see' the god(s) face to face. The rituals included hymns, music, dancers, offerings, recitations, and animal sacrifices.

I point all this out because this sets a precedence for the mindset of the Israelites upon there escape from Egypt and it plays directly into the introduction of the Mosaic Law. My contention is that the Mosaic Law is a substitute to the Egyptian law that they were accustomed to and was designed to wean the Israelites from that system. And indeed, Moses had to contend with the people who reverted back to the system when he came down from Mount Sinai as saw that they built the golden calf.

I'm stopping here as a breather and let others comment on this. I'm being detailed in this subject of 'The Law', because it has a direct bearing on later discussions in regard to Paul. And it will prove to follow logically into the rebuttal. I'm hopeful to hear from Mr Gareffa in this regard.

[juantoo3]

Awesome post, Dondi!

Well thought out and explained. I am anxious to see more!

[Dondi]

So instead of starting from scratch, the Mosiac Law was instituted so that the liberated Israelites could readily adapt to their new environment. Certain elements from the Egyptian system therefore remained. Yet it also was decidedly unique. There was an insistence to one God, specifically the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, which provided an anchor for the Israelites to grab onto. This is not to say that the Israelites ever abandoned their belief in the Abrahamic Diety, certainly in their captivity that tradition survived, but it is evident in their propensity to go after foreign gods that the Lord God was not the only influence. But it is clear in the Mosiac Law that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the only God with which the Hebrews would have to do with. I suppose it is not unlike a similiar situation that arose in the case of Mohammed in consolidating all the gods in the Arabian Peninsula to the One God, Allah.

The Exodus presented a huge logistical problem in the management of some 3.5 million Jews. (According to Exodus, there were over 600,000 men plus women and children. Now if one surmises an average typical family of say six, that is dad, mom, and four siblings, then the one can easily arrive at the 3.5 million estimate) If there were to be any order, there had to be a set of laws to govern such a massive population. Thus the establishment of the Covenant Code, which are the set of ritual and civil laws that were pronounced to the Israelites from Mount Sinai. Among these were what's known as the Ten Commandments. It also included instructions for the construction of the Tabernacle, which would be the ritual place of worship whereby sacrifices and offerings were given up to God all in the care of a system of Levitical priests. This system was designed to allow 'atonement' for the sins of the people for reconcilliation back to God. It involved various animal sacrifices which conveyed strongly to the Israelites the seriousness of their trangressions in the deaths, the shedding of blood, and the consuming flesh of the animals. The sacrifices were performed daily and so the flow of blood was constant. But is all cuminated toward the Day of Atonement when the High Priest, after much careful preparation, entered the Holy of Holies where the Shekinah glory of God resided and offered the final sacrifice on the Mercy Seat of God above the Ark of the Covenant, for himself and for the sins of the people. Furthermore, was the promise of land of Israel which they were to possess, a place sanctified by God for their own.

It cannot be emphasized enough to point out that all of the Law in the Torah was specifically for the Israelites. It is a Covenant between the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and His people, which extended back to the promise given to Abraham that out of his would come a People for Himself, through which the all the nations of the world would be blessed. But the dire mistake many people make it to apply the Mosiac Law to themselves. But if one is not Jewish, then one does not have anything to do with the Mosaic Law, for it is only for the Jewish people. That has never changed, even in the advent of Christ. This is the mistake many churches today make in trying to shoehorn the Law into their belief system. They pick and choose from the Law what they think pertains to them and leave out the rest. But that's like taking one bite out of a hamburger and tossing the rest away. You must 'eat the whole roll', the saying goes. Not only must you abide by the Ten Commandments, but you must take heed to the other 603 commandments contained therein. And you can only do that if you are a Jew.

Now there were provisions during the time of Exodus for 'strangers' who joined the Jews, but basically he is made a convert:

"And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever be among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; as ye do, so he shall do.
One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you." - Numbers 15:14-16

Even then, there were certain restrictions, for example, they could not go past the Court of the Gentiles to worship God.

But the purpose of Israel as a whole was to be a light to the rest of the Gentile world:

"Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?" - Deuteronomy 4:5-8

Those nations were judged according to how they treated Israel, for they were God's people. Not that the Israelites were necessarily any better than the other nations, certainly they've shown over and over that they weren't deserving, but that God specifically chose Israel to show the world His Glory, His Power, and His Purpose.

Now I've given this rather lengthy primer to establish the point that the Law is for the Jews. And it is on this point where I will make the case of Paul.

[Dondi]

I will also demonstrate how this Law is conditional and flexible. Deuteronomy 1 briefs the failure of Israel to enter the land due heeding the report of the ten spies instead of the testamony of Josha and Caleb. The consequences were dire in that the first generation out of Egypt was now forbidden and 40 years passed before the next generation was allowed to enter. And due to Moses disobedience in the incident of the rock from which water sprang, he was forbidden as well.

Perhaps the most significant passage in Dueteronomy is chapter 6. This contains the shema, which became the basic creed of Judaism, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." (Deut. 6:4). But equally important is the exhortation in the following chapter which directly establishes the basis of Israel's relationship with God:

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.
Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle. And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee." - Deuteronomy 7:6-15

The significance here is that God has established His covenant with Israel based on the promise to it's forefather's, specifically Abraham, not because they are of any great people out of the world, but rather the least of all people.

However, the manifestation of that love would be contingent on Israel's faithfulness to God in obeying His commandments and statutes. Love God with all their heart, mind, and soul, and God will return that love by blessing the nation with prosperity, health, victory in battle over the surrounding nations, and the promise of maintaining the land given to them. And curses if they disobey.

All the rest of the Hebrew bible chronicles the ups and downs of Israel where we are shown this correlation time after time. The covenant is national. Meaning that the whole nation must be faithful in doing their part in their conduct of obedience before the Lord. One person can screw it up for the rest, as evident in the incident involving Achan (Joshua 7).

Progressively, there are commandments for instructions involving the establishment of a king over Israel:

"When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;" - Deut. 17:14

This is in anticipation of what was to occur some 400 years later, when the people of Israel pleaded with the prophet Samuel to make them a king, due to Samuel's sons being evil judges. The Lord's response indicates a rejection of theocratic rule:

"And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them." - I Samuel 8:7

So the Lord allowed Israel to have a king of His choosing by the name of Saul. While this is not an exactly progressive move, it is accommodating, for better or for worse (mostly worse). Israel wants to be like everybody else, so be it, but be careful what you ask for. This seems to be the beginning of Israel's secularization with the rest of the world. And it proved to be Israel's downfall. Why? Because man cannot rule over the nation, only God. Every king that was set up displayed some kind of fault. David murdered amd committed adultery, Solomon entangled himself with his many wives and concubines. The kingdom then split and Israel (and Judah) went through a whole line of kings some evil, some not so evil, but it got so bad that the Lord allowed them to lose that kingdom and be captured and carried away to Babylon for 70 years (the same number of sabbaths years that they violated).

Now it should be noted that during their time in Babylonian captivity that they obviously could not fulfill all the requirements of the Law, for the only place where the High Priest could make the sacrifice for the Day of Atonement was on the spot in Jerusalem that the Lord designated. So now we have a change in the requirement in keeping the whole Law as prescribed in the Torah, at least while Israel was still captive.

Again, this will play into the discussion of the Law in the dealings with Paul in a later section.