Rediscovering the Vedas

[Suraj]

Lucius,

What you are saying makes sense, but I would like to add; The Hindu view on the physical and the spiritual, is that they reflect one another. It is held that every atom in this universe is pervaded by the spirit and that man himself is the personification of the universe(microcosm) which is what Astrology is based on. There are two phenomenas in the universe, matter and soul(consciousness) and they bear testimant to one another.

As you said, viewing the universe from different perspective. If you view it from a completely spiritual perspective, you get spirituality and religion. If you view it from a completely material perspective, you get the physical sciences. But what I have learnt from Hinduism, and particularly the schools of Samkhya, Nyaya, Vaiseshika and the Upaveda of Ayurveda, that the spiritual and material are united, because they believe that the observer and the reality are entangled.

All of these rationalist schools had spirituality. Vaiseshika was not just concerned with the physical universe, but also the mental universe. In the Bhagvad Gita, the Sattva, Rajas and Tamas qualities were not just physical principles of Prakriti, but also spiritual principles of the soul.

I really like this worldview of uniting science with spirituality, because as you said, they are not incompatible. I think they compliment one another and give a much more complete picture of reality and being. Astrology is based on astronomical observations and complex calculations, but that are related directly to consciousness. Vaastu Shastra is based on precise arrangement(and measurements?) but is directled related to consciousness. Ayurveda is based on using observations to diagnose, then treating with medicines, surgery and exercise, but it is directly related to consciousness.

Almost all of the arts and sciences of India are related directly to consciousness. There is great proof, therefore, that ancient India did have a developed science of studying material phenomena through empirical research.

Hence, why I believe that there is good reason to believe that the ancient Vedic Risis were not just mystics, but also had a grasp of the sciences and the fact that there exists a rationalist scientific method which itself extends into vedic antiquity.

After all if they can arrive at theories like superstring theory, big bang theory, the theory of evolution, quantum theory, the theory of light just through meditation, then such enlightened Risi should also be able to make use of these theories for society.

When you say there is no evidence to support these theories having a technological use, I am going to disagree. I have found evidence of technology in ancient India, but the evidence is so fanatastic, that it's difficult to believe.

There were many Yantras in ancient Indian, and Yantra means "machine" These are physical devices that operate on physical principles. I have seen an entire list of ancient machines, from the very ordinary to the absolutely fanastic.

I will begin with the ordinary. In Kautilya's Arthasastra(his text on statemanship) he mentions a basic machine called yantrabaddha talabaptami, it was a platform that used a mechanical mechanism(a pulley system) to go down from the royal chamber to the underground chamber in a case of emergency. Basically it's a lift. He also mentions automatic doors.

The above sound believable, because they could be just primitive devices, which no doubt show ancient Indian ingenuity.

But this when they begin to become fanastic. In a very important Vaastu Shastra text(architecture/engineering) called the Samararigana Sutradhara. This is from a translation on this web site dedicated to ancient hi-tech civilisations http://www.atlantisquest.com/Samar.html

Strong and durable must the machine's body be made of light material, having wings joined smoothly with invisible seams. It can carry passengers, it can be made small and compact, it can move in silence. If sound is to be used successfully, there must be great flexibility in the driving mechanism, and all must be put together faultlessly. In order for it to accomplish its intended purpose, it must last a long time, it must be well covered in . . . it must not become too hot, too stiff, nor too soft, and its sharp-pointed battering ram must also be long lasting. Indeed, the machine's main qualities, which are remembered by one and all, include unending motion, which is to say perpetual motion. Smoothness is one of the machines supreme qualities, thus, the workings of the machines is versatile, complete, not given to expansion, not complaining, and always suitable. . .

At this point the text becomes most interesting . . . but also the most difficult. It is evident that essential elements in the propulsion system are deliberately vague--or completely left out. The reason for this is explained later in the text. I can see why this has never appeared in any of the English translations. (The hiatus indicated by ". . ." involves about five Sanskrit words, and "expanding" is one of them, and "wished for" is another. I wish I could offer a more complete translation.)

At the critical time the beam of fire must be released, which will make the action possible. The time-beam expands, accompanied by sound . . . the expansion performs work like an elephant in an endless cycle.

Further along in the text is a paragraph which mentions using wood as a potential building material in the construction of a yantra; then jumps into a description of a propulsion system which may use a fuel similar to gasoline.

The manufacturing of a conquering yantra is greatly desired . . . using light-weight wood to build a great air-going machine of a strong-bodied type. In the central container is the liquid consumed by the engine, which gradually burns away during complete combustion.

Fully renown is the conquering of the following motions: Vertical ascent; Vertical descent; Forwards; Backwards; Normal ascent; Normal descent; Slanting; Progressing over long distances, through proper adjustment of the working parts . . . And its musical sound and throbbing thunder can easily drown out the trumpeting of the elephant in panic. It can be moved by musical tones.

Shining in every direction, their machine (yantra) could travel wherever the imagination dictated. From their great height they saw stimulating dances, drama plays, and pristine dance ceremonies. The machine gained renown among Royal dynasties and various nations. In such a manner the High-Souled ones flew, while the lower classes walked. All those friends succeeded in their much-deserved acquisition of a yantra, by means of which human beings can fly in the air, and non-earthling, Celestial Beings, can come down to mortals in their visits to Earth.

Some of the aircraft seemed to be winged like a modern aeroplane, but such a craft could not go backwards, nor could it ascend or descend vertically. No doubt, the term "dual-winged" appears in the following text in conjunction with some sort of air, or jet, propulsion.

. . .Thus inside one must place the Mercury-engine; and properly mounted beneath it, the iron heating apparatus. Men thusly set the dual-winged, driving whirlwind in motion. The concealed pilot, by means of the mercury-power, may travel a great distance in the sky.

What follows is the description of a much larger, more complex vimana (Note: this is the only place the word "vimana" is actually used in the text), which is powered by four mercury-engines.

An extremely swift and nimble vimana can be built, as large as the temple of the God-in-motion. Into the interior structure four strong mercury containers must be installed. When these have been heated by a controlled fire from iron containers, the flying machine develops thunder-power through the mercury, becoming a machine much to be desired. Moreover, if this iron engine with properly welded joints be filled with fluid (mercury?), when ascending or descending over land it develops power with the roar of a lion.



I think this naturally leads to Brians question:

Brian I don't really know whether these planes existed or not, but it is actually true that the Vedas, Mahabharata, Puranas, Ramayana and many many other texts(some that are secular) do talk about aeroplanes, automobiles. So these are not being forced into these texts.

As for electricity, I want to get back to you on that one, because I got to go now.

This is exactly why I think the Vedas need to be retranslated. There is no question about it that early translations of the Vedas have been errornous and badly translated and the roles of the "gods" not understand properly. I was just reading about the Maruts in Ralpth T.H Girriths 19th century translation of the Rig Veda.

It says they are the shing ones, and golden, fierce and fast and move in groups and the chidren of Rudra. Rudra is electricity(the deva of lightening and storms) but then it says they are the children of the cow. It no longer made sense, but now that it's been shown by Sri Aurbindo that go means light, it makes sense now. It's saying children of light.

Rudra/Agni/light a are being used synonymously to describe their source, and they are all sources of energy. In the first post, I showed how the book I was reading explained how Maruts were particles of energy - photons if you will. It makes a lot of sense.

If it does, it has great implications for the Vedas. It proves that the Vedas really do contain science, and this isn't just wishfull thinking,and most of us have completely misunderstood them. But again, I think while a compelling theory already, that we need to anaylse the original Sanskrit and rediscover it's meaning,

[redindica]

Hi All

sorry for being away for so long off this thread. Thank you for all the post's I've learnt a lot through this discussion.

Peace
redindica

[yrsane]

I am not a Sanskrit scholar ,but I am a Practioner of Spiritual 'sadhana'.I feel that there is a lot of misunderstanding about the real import of Vedas.I would recommend reading "Secrets in Vedas"by Aurobindo ,who was educated in England and Passed I.C.S. examination. Unless we understand and appreciate the Real Cosmology and purpose of life on Earth, in which we live and differnciate clearly from the exclusive materialist earthly understanding of this Universe,this misunderstandings cannot be resolved. The 'unmanifest' world, from which the 'manifest' world devolves ,is the real abode of all life on this Earth.'Vedas' were discovered and conveyed to our life by the the Yogi Sages Visionariesor Rishis, who had a unique transcendental vision of these cosmic Spiritual Laws of the World.and which alone gives this integral understanding of the Universe ,in its real spiritual meanings of the manifest and unmanifest world and the parameters of Life ,death,Individuality,mortal nature of Human Body etc. on Earth ,as distinct from the materialistic Scientific understanding and interpretations. But,such understading is not amenable to Human Intelect in its present state, but can be had only in a transcendental Yogic capacity by Integral Yoga Practice and sadhna.Weare all captives of a contemporary Science Paradigm and reject this true but direct advice,hence the confusion and debates.I would be interested in subscibing to the ongoing debate on this(my claimed ) perception,which I have also undertaken to lay out in "Sulekha.com" in my blog as "Dialectical Spirituality".I humbly seek and welcom any comment.Y.R.Sane /E:Mail:yrsane@eth.net
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