"Redemption" and "Enlightenment"

[earl]

Originally Posted by Tariki

Thanks to all for the contributions! Like JosephM, I think there are "linguistic conflicts" involved. Individual experience is necessarily funnelled into the "old bottles" of a particular Faith and seen in its light. Even when at the level of pure experience/transformation the self-same reality is perhaps known, expressions of it may be coloured in the light - even demands - of doctrine.

I do agree that at a very fundamental level there is a gulf between those who understand "salvation" as a "self" gaining a state of being previously unattained, and those who understand it as the realization of that which already IS. These different understandings seem at work in both Buddhism and Christianity, as each gains expression in the words of its adherents. Vaguely, in my own mind, I perceive how each would colour our own grasp of the realities of "redemption" and "enlightenment".

And further, in Thomas Merton's own explorations, he wrote at times that in the dialogue between Buddhism and Christianity, it is in the understanding of the "Person" that is a fundamental issue.

"As to the study of this whole question of 'ego-self' and 'person', it must be carried on in the realm of metaphysics, and the ego as working hypothesis in psychology must not be confused with the metaphysical person which alone is capable of transcendent union with the Ground of Being. The person is in fact rooted in that absolute Ground and not in the phenomenal contingency of ego-hood" (Excerpt from an essay contained in "Zen and the Birds of Appetite")

I may seem to be drifting from my question, yet I do sense that what has just been said does relate. Just who is being "redeemed" or "enlightened"? And how does our grasp of this effect our own understanding of what the two words may - or may not - mean?

Merton again......

"...........if the person were to attempt to go 'outside' this metaphysical ground in order to experience himself* as being and acting, or observe himself* as an object functioning among other objects, the unitive wisdom experience would become impossible, because now the person is split in two - hence the paradox that as soon as there is 'someone there' to have a transcendent experience, 'the experience' is falsified and indeed becomes impossible."

*or herself! Even Merton has his limitations !

Hey Derek-as to the apparent dichotomy between attaining to a previously unattained state of grace vs. recognition of what has and will always be from a Christian mystical perspective-I'd posted a quote in another thread from Eckhart that appears to embrace these as 2 sides of the same coin:

"God had given birth to the Son as you, as me, as each one of us. As many beings-as many gods in God. In my soul God not only gives birth to me as his son, he gives birth to me as himself and himself as me. I find in this divine birth that God and I are the same. I am what I was and what I shall always remain now and forever. I am transported above the highest angels. I neither decrease nor increase for in this birth I have become the motionless cause of all that moves. I have won back what has always been mine. Here in my own soul the greatest of all miracles has taken place-God has returned to God."

have a good one, earl

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by wil

Don't they both occur when one truly grocks oneness?

There is always the possibility of spiritual immaturity. (Hebrews 5:12-14)

[wil]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

There is always the possibility of spiritual immaturity. (Hebrews 5:12-14)

So come on, let's leave the preschool fingerpainting exercises on Christ and get on with the grand work of art. Grow up in Christ. The basic foundational truths are in place: turning your back on "salvation by self-help" and turning in trust toward God; baptismal instructions; laying on of hands; resurrection of the dead; eternal judgment. God helping us, we'll stay true to all that. But there's so much more. Let's get on with it!

[Tariki]

earl,

nice to "see" you again! Thanks for the quote from Eckhart.

From the journals of the Pure Land "saint" Saichi.......

"Wind and air are two,
But it is one wind, one air.
Amida and I are two,
But the compassion of Namu-amida-butsu is one"

Dipping once more into the letters of Thomas Merton. Re-reading "The Road to Joy"...(The second volume, Letters to New and Old Friends) It seems to me that is in the letters that the heart of the man is revealed. Writing to a friend he tells them that they are a true Christian............."..for this is what it is to be a Christian: simply to be Christ and not to realize it".

Anyway, "the road to joy"....."which is mysteriously revealed to us without our exactly realizing". It does seem that too much introspection, too much thought about "where we are" or whatever................seems counter-productive.

And seatllegal.........."His veil was removed when he turned to the Lord. Now 'the Lord' in this passage is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is present, there is freedom. All of us, then, reflect the glory of the Lord with uncovered faces.........." Nice to be directed to some NT passage such as this. Thanks.

"If only everybody could realize this! But it cannot be explained. There is no way of telling people they are all walking around shining like the sun" (From "Conjectures of a Guilty Bystander", Merton)