Rebirth/Reincarnation in Judaism

[Vajradhara]

namaste srs,

thanks for the post.

you didn't reply to the query, however.

i asked why you would suspect that the esoteric teachings of a religious tradition were reserved for only those with indoctrinated minds?

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

namaste srs,

thanks for the post.

you didn't reply to the query, however.

i asked why you would suspect that the esoteric teachings of a religious tradition were reserved for only those with indoctrinated minds?

Apologies, Vaj. I shouldn't have come forth rather bellicose.

If there are such teachings which are reserved only for select audience, not for anyone and everyone curious and interested to at least examine them on their merits, then I am inclined to feel that their authors or their custodians want only people who will accept them the way they, the custodians, want them to be accepted.

Select audience then in the eyes of the custodians are recipients who have been pre-disposed by the custodians themselves or from their own character to accept the teachings the way they the custodians want them to be accepted.

"Indoctrinated" is not a pleasant term, but the essence without the emotional nuance is a valid construct.

Jesus warns about throwing pearls before swine, which of course is ad hominem. Maybe that also is the defense mechanism of esoteric teachings or its fall-back position, a device for self-perpetuation.


Susma Rio Sep

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

namaste srs,

thanks for the post.

you didn't reply to the query, however.

i asked why you would suspect that the esoteric teachings of a religious tradition were reserved for only those with indoctrinated minds?

Dear Vaj:

If you know of any esoteric writing, would you be kind enough to share it with me?

I implore you however not to demure on the ground that such a writing is reserved only to select disciples. In which case I would be naughty in my mind to imagine a case of the Emperor's New Robe.

An aside: Susma says: "Show me the porno and I will decide."

Susma Rio Sep

[bananabrain]

Susma says: "Show me the porno and I will decide."

the nazir, a leading kabbalist kept his nigla (revealed knowledge) books locked up, but his nistar (secret knowledge) books in plain view, as they were perfectly safe from people who did not understand what the books contained.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Dear Vaj:

If you know of any esoteric writing, would you be kind enough to share it with me?

I implore you however not to demure on the ground that such a writing is reserved only to select disciples. In which case I would be naughty in my mind to imagine a case of the Emperor's New Robe.

An aside: Susma says: "Show me the porno and I will decide."

Susma Rio Sep

Namaste sus,

i have already divulged some of this information on this site already.. typically this would be in the Eastern Thought section, though i have been necessarily brief and circumspect in some instances. you may want to review my postings about Taoist Alchemy, for instance.

perhaps "secret" isn't the best word to be used... perhaps a better word is "spiritually mature" since, in my tradition at least, the criteria for receiving the transmission of esoteric teachings is based on ones own level of spiritual attainment and understanding.

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

. . .

perhaps "secret" isn't the best word to be used... perhaps a better word is "spiritually mature" since, in my tradition at least, the criteria for receiving the transmission of esoteric teachings is based on ones own level of spiritual attainment and understanding.

Well, I guess we are back to the incapacity of the carnal man to discern spiritual things.

In this regard, there is a danger of circularity in spiritual understanding. You have got to be spiritual to understand spiritual things, and spiritual things are understood by spiritual men.

Good chap, Vaj. Your Internet forum character is commendable in your patience and calm, withal.

In the present concern, I guess Buddha and Lao Tzu might have said something similar like: "Throwing pearls before swine". An ad hominem.

Just the same, Vaj, I would like to see people given to esoteric writings do more street sweeping, specially on a voluntary act. For me that's the purist spirituality.

Ming Sun, the youngest child in the family, a boy, told his father he felt the call to enter the monastery. The old man replied: "The monastery is all in the mind; go, do your chores. When you have your own family and home, and have attained wealth and fame, then you may honestly realize the dream in your mind, not until then".*

Susma Rio Sep

*From Susma's Fables

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

the nazir, a leading kabbalist kept his nigla (revealed knowledge) books locked up, but his nistar (secret knowledge) books in plain view, as they were perfectly safe from people who did not understand what the books contained.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Now, we have revealed knowledge and we have secret knowledge. That's very slippery, Banana. Hehehehe.

Are there still Kabbalists these days, possessed of revealed knowledge and secret knowledge. The Israelis and the Palestinians are killing each other, and they both descended from Abraham. Are they concerned that we have a problem here, namely, the Israelis and the Palestinians. Maybe they do have the solution, the Kabbalists, that is; but they are not doing anything about it, because either the solution is revealed only to them, or it's secret and can't be understood.

Susma Rio Sep

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

.

Just the same, Vaj, I would like to see people given to esoteric writings do more street sweeping, specially on a voluntary act. For me that's the purist spirituality.

Namaste Su,

hmm.. .and how would one discern this from an outward appearance?

further, most if not all, of the writers of said material are dead. what sort of "street sweeping" would that be? one pictures something like the Dawn of the Dead movies... or, perhaps, the Army of Darkness

are you, perhaps, referring to those that receive esoteric teachings from a qualified instructor?

[bananabrain]

Now, we have revealed knowledge and we have secret knowledge. That's very slippery, Banana. Hehehehe.

that's how we understand the two types of knowledge. there is that which can be worked out from the text according to the accepted rules of exegesis, in a more-or-less straightforward (albeit complicated) manner. but there is also that which relies upon texts and traditions regarding texts which have been passed down alongside the exegetical frameworks. this includes the provision of "red herrings" to point the unqualified away from inappropriate lines of questioning.

Are there still Kabbalists these days, possessed of revealed knowledge and secret knowledge.

yes. traditionally, a mastery of the revealed knowledge is a prerequisite for understanding the secret traditions - as well as having a guide to help you do so.

The Israelis and the Palestinians are killing each other, and they both descended from Abraham. Are they concerned that we have a problem here, namely, the Israelis and the Palestinians. Maybe they do have the solution, the Kabbalists, that is; but they are not doing anything about it, because either the solution is revealed only to them, or it's secret and can't be understood.

unfortunately, most of the leading kabbalists - being amongst the most pious - are associated with the national-religious and ultra-religious camps, which means they're rather right wing, in favour of settlements and don't like arabs very much, or anyone that disagrees with them. the problem is that the more you know, the more certain of your opinions you tend to be, which exacerbate a tendency to see things in terms of good and evil. in other words, they think they *are* doing something about it and they know perfectly well that their arguments are not acceptable to a lot of people, which they put down to it not being understood by those who don't have their level of knowledge, which is by definition almost everyone. which is why they aren't very concerned about what anyone else thinks - they're blinded by their sense of mission. however, there are other kabbalists who do not share this point of view, but they're a) less numerous b) less vocal and c) less influential. the mystical tradition has been made to look foolish several times in history for various reasons, usually because an influential subgroup have made a miscall about the Messiah or the Redemption which has been taken up by a mass movement. i personally believe that this is currently the case about the israeli-palestinian conflict and it may, sadly, take a terrible catastrophe before they are convinced that they've called it wrong again.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[achnai]

Shalom

Sorry for my late reply.




Bananabrain wrote:

whilst what you say reflects my own understanding of the attitude of the hassidic/mitnagdic world to the study of nistar (which i *wouldn't* translate as "occult" because of the english connotations) i'm not quite sure what your point is in relation to reincarnation, other than that our attitude to it may affect our attitude to the performance of mitsvoth.

The word "occult", is certainly not a good translation. I think we would agree on the word "esoteric", as a more appropriate one.
regarding the issue of incaranation: I consider the relation between the practical observance of the Mitzvoth, to the study and meditation on their spiritual meaning as an essential one, and perhaps even crucial to Hassidism. It is written that Talmud Torah (study of the Torah) is above all; it is a Mitzvah that gives meaining to all the we are ordered to do (or supposedly ordered: I personally do not observe the Mitzvoth, that is not the right place to say why). If there was not the Study of the issues to which what we do corresponds spiritually, I assume there was'nt the motivation for doing it. The same is valid, regarding every religious issue, including reincarnation. That is to say that when you have reincarnation as a a Torahic issue that must be studied in detail, and has practical implications on the way you observe the Mitzvoth, it is thereby impreganted with significance which is so vital for life of an orthodox jew.
It is well known that Rabbi Sa'adya Gaon, disputed with the conclusions of the Ari H'kadosh on many subjects, and the attitude of Maimonidas (Rambam) to the irrational is one of disapproval. However, If there weren't certain Great rebbes who supported this concept of reincaranation, who also bothered to compose thier works on the basis of the Ari H'kadosh wrote, we may assume that this part of the Torah was alltogether neglected. Moreover, the Talmud does say that there is a foundation supporting incaranation directly from the Torah, and since, as I have pointed out, there is a mature and dedicated reference to the subject from certain Rebbes, we must assume that it comprises a vital part in jewish religion. the bottom line is the the imprtance of the topic stand in relation to it's part in the religious scripture valid and perscribed for study.

you have also forgotten another two major aspects of "modern jewish orthodoxy", namely the sephardic (spanish and portuguese) and eidot mizrah (communities of the middle east and orient) where these aspects of belief are less likely to be considered controversial.

I must say this is rather unfortunate on my part.
regarding the Sefardic community which in Israel tends to form one group together with the Edoth Mizrah, the realtion towards the mystical part in judaism has grown more favourable. The Sefaradic Grand Rabbi Ovadia Yoseph has got a strong tendency to approve of both reincaranation and Gilgul, we may observe that in his constant if somewhat dogmatic reference to them in an idiomatic manner.
It is true though that one does not study the writings of the Ari H'kadish in Sefaradic yeshivot. But this is only because they are considered too sacred for the immature.

[Susma Rio Sep]

May I now request the knowledgeable posters here on Jewish rebirth or reincarnation to give your answers in short paragraphs to my questions, namely:

1. What for Jews is being rebirthed or reincarnated, the body, the soul, or the consciousness, or what?

2. When does this event take place and how many times?

3. Is this a belief that Jews must all accept or is it a matter of optional attachment.

4. If a Jew does not accept this belief or rebirth or reincarnation, does he stand less worthy of God's aproval, compared to those who do?

Susma Rio Sep

[achnai]

Dear Susma Rio Sep

1. What for Jews is being rebirthed or reincarnated, the body, the soul, or the consciousness, or what?

The idea of reincarnation postulates the reincarnaton of both body and soul and/or conciousness.

2. When does this event take place and how many times?

That, according to Jewish belief is supposed to take place when the Messiah comes. this happens only once. when the Messiah comes it will not be nescessary for any other event to happen, it is believed to be so great an event as it is.

3. Is this a belief that Jews must all accept or is it a matter of optional attachment.

All jews must accept the belief in reincarnation. This is one out of the thirteen pricnciples which comprise the Credo which all jews must accept.

4. If a Jew does not accept this belief or rebirth or reincarnation, does he stand less worthy of God's aproval, compared to those who do?

A jew who chooses not to accept one or all of the 13 principles of belief is considered as having abondoned the faith, and does not have his share in the world to come (Olam H'ba).


Kindest regards

Achnai

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by achnai

Dear Susma Rio SepThe idea of reincarnation postulates the reincarnaton of both body and soul and/or conciousness.That, according to Jewish belief is supposed to take place when the Messiah comes. this happens only once. when the Messiah comes it will not be nescessary for any other event to happen, it is believed to be so great an event as it is.All jews must accept the belief in reincarnation. This is one out of the thirteen pricnciples which comprise the Credo which all jews must accept.A jew who chooses not to accept one or all of the 13 principles of belief is considered as having abondoned the faith, and does not have his share in the world to come (Olam H'ba).


Kindest regards

Achnai

Thanks, Achnai.

Would you care to explain to me also the dispute between Jesus and some Jewish leaders of His times about the resurrection of the dead, which Jesus believes in but the Jews don't?

Is the Christian belief in the resurrection different or the same as regards the Jewish rebirth or reincarnation?

To me it seems like the same bird in different lingual feathers.

Please accept my commendations for your clear, concise, and straightforward answers -- without any hint of rancor.

Susma Rio Sep

[achnai]

Shalom, Susma Rio Sep

Would you care to explain to me also the dispute between Jesus and some Jewish leaders of His times about the resurrection of the dead, which Jesus believes in but the Jews don't?

The rejection of reicarnation was peculiar to the Sadducees. The Pharisees of that age, which many believe to be ancestors to the Rabbis of our time, did not held the same view, neither then nor in our time.

Is the Christian belief in the resurrection different or the same as regards the Jewish rebirth or reincarnation?

Personally, I can't find any difference whatsoever.

Please accept my commendations for your clear, concise, and straightforward answers -- without any hint of rancor.

Thank you. hope I was of assistance.

Kindest Regards

Achnai

[Susma Rio Sep]

(From Susma) Please accept my commendations for your clear, concise, and straightforward answers -- without any hint of rancor.

Thank you. hope I was of assistance.

Kindest Regards

Achnai

You and Bananabrain are two distinctly different Jews.

But I love you both.

Susma Rio Sep