Rebirth/Reincarnation in Christianity

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I agree with you, Bandit. I came to the conclusion that reincarnation happens at least some of the time because I myself have memories. I won't get into that, but I will say to read the Buddhist view of all this is fascinating. My own memories and strong opinions about life based on them began when I was very young, and I've never meditated with the intent of receiving them. They just come to me at times, and mostly they are like normal memories- vague remembrances of who I was, where I was, lifeways- though a few are very detailed. I have certain skills (unfortunately, nothing all that marketable ) that I picked up exceedingly easily and felt like I was "remembering" how to do it rather than learning it like the other stuff I do.

hey Path

i want to talk to you a little bit more about some of this. i dont get real deep into it, but i know there is more to it like you are saying, & will be getting back to you in couple of days or so.
i wont forget

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I agree with you, Bandit. I came to the conclusion that reincarnation happens at least some of the time because I myself have memories. I won't get into that, but I will say to read the Buddhist view of all this is fascinating. My own memories and strong opinions about life based on them began when I was very young, and I've never meditated with the intent of receiving them. They just come to me at times, and mostly they are like normal memories- vague remembrances of who I was, where I was, lifeways- though a few are very detailed. I have certain skills (unfortunately, nothing all that marketable ) that I picked up exceedingly easily and felt like I was "remembering" how to do it rather than learning it like the other stuff I do.

I believe you. I think something like dejavu or some kind of vision, maybe being caught away in spirit is more what i am seeing with some of this, for me anyway.

Originally Posted by path_of_one

At any rate, this experience, while still following Christ since the time I was a child and reading scripture, resulted in reconciling the two eventually and coming to the conclusion that some of us, at least, go 'round more than once. I also believe transmigration is possible, as crazy as that seems to most Christians. But there you have it. You deal with what you're given the best you can, right?

i can't say for sure, but i do believe it has happened once . so anything else, i wont question or doubt what someone else might have gone around more than once. i see it as more in the fulness of time & we will understand it better on that side of Jordan.

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I don't really perceive reincarnation as automatic. Like you're saying Bandit, I think there's reasons for reincarnated beings and that not everyone does this, or at least they don't do it in the same fashion and for the same reasons. I think it is a God-guided process, as in, God tells someone they can learn more, or need to learn more. Or God asks someone to incarnate again to help others. Maybe some people just like occasionally popping back into physical reality again, and God is supportive- I don't know.

i think if & when it happens, we dont choose. God just does it & at some point we/they reconcile with whatever purpose He has for doing it. but i cant say what that would always be for. so i dont know either. LOL

Originally Posted by path_of_one

The dream thing is interesting. I'd never think to try to not dream. I've had control over my dreams since I was about five years old and so my conscious mind is awake when I dream. I typically, in dream, am split into two- my conscious watches my subconscious come up with ideas and play them out. If I don't like what's going on, or am bored, I just change things for my subconscious "me" that's in the dream. I experience both perspectives simultaneously normally, except in visionary dreams in which I switch to a single perspective- but they come with certain "markers" in the dream and generally a sort of OBE thing. Alternatively, when I'm inspired or have a lot of work to do, I sometimes don't dream, but rather consciously think and work on writing in my head. My body is asleep (I am typically conscious as I enter the sleeping state, unless I'm really tired), but my mind has composed poetry and worked on research papers during this time. Then I wake up and write it down in the morning. It typically needs editing, but it does use time relatively efficiently. I don't do it too often, though, because it's not really that restful. I honestly never even thought to try to stop my mind from running during sleep. I like the interesting world of dream, especially since I control my regular dreams. I love that I can fly and such in dream- gives me an opportunity to do stuff that isn't possible in physical reality.

i think rebirth & reincarnation is two different things. a rebirth (born again) to me is when we are born of spirit of God & adopted forever into the body of Christ.
i do believe in dreams & visions & there is a purpose & answers come through them.
i have never been able to control a dream, but answers have come & i have been able to wake up, & go back to sleep & finish a dream. other times i will have forgotten it, then later it comes back to memory bringing up many wonderings & feelings. one dream i remember well, took me into the midst of 3 of the apostles & a short discussion with them concerning a conflict in understanding. i asked God for understanding & i believe this was his way of showing me & confirming.

i also have been able to fly in dreams & i like that a lot.

Originally Posted by path_of_one

As for what Thomas was discussing, I found it quite interesting, because I've never had a problem thinking all of nature, including my own body, as very good and possessing the immanence of God, even though I strongly feel my spirit/soul is separate and will move on. It isn't "just" a vessel, and certainly isn't evil. It is a temple of God in which I currently dwell, and I'm grateful for the opportunity of learning it provides. What is fascinating to me is that in much of mainstream Christianity (at least in the States these days), there is the belief in the resurrection and yet also the belief that nature and the human body is bad or evil, fallen from grace. Whereas in Druidry, lots of people believe only in reincarnation and yet see nature and the human body as good and of divine origin, a gift from the the god(s). I guess I'm of the Celtic Christian variety (early), that felt the immanence of divinity in all creation. That "breath of life" that animates us imbues us all with the divine spark and makes all of reality, spiritual and physical, entwined and good at heart (though often clouded by wrongdoing). The grace of Christ, instead of imparting to us the first spark of goodness, awakens the goodness that already was our deepest nature... and like a lighthouse parts the fog to guide ships home, parts the darkness of our wrongdoing and sinful choices, leading us back to the light deep within us and thus to our Creator.

i think it can go either way. good or evil. i think there are 3 influences. our own natural influence
that says, set the alarm & go to work.
another that says, be lazy & steal the bacon, you wont get caught.
another that says, you have done well, pay for the bacon & share it.

people are influenced & we can do the same thing to each other through these 3 influences, one is of our own, the other two are from two distinct outside sources, in my belief.

i dont lean in any direction of the established faiths in Christianity or other religions that started after the apostles & stick real close word for word the way it went down in the book of Acts. this was the first of the church, not the History of the religions that came after it.

as for nature, i think this is something different also. it is only in the last 5 years i have become one with nature & the creator that way. something unexplainable, but real & i believe God is in it. Like a live vibration that runs from what i touch that comes from the ground through my feet, hands & body-kind of like electricity, but soothing.
i see these things as evidence because of my faith & accept it as a blessing & dont try to add to it or make it happen again.

But i also feel it is seperate from the experience of being filled with the promise of Holy Ghost & the shekinah glory that makes us one in essence with God & nothing material in between. & this is what we want to seek after & stay close to. this is what lets nothing seperate us from Him & from His love.

[celtic_christian]

hmmm..... intriguing, especially the John the Baptist/Elijah and the sins of the blind man observations.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Bandit

I believe you. I think something like dejavu or some kind of vision, maybe being caught away in spirit is more what i am seeing with some of this, for me anyway.

Thanks. I know lots of people would just think I'm nuts, so it's only in a web forum or with the closest of friends that I would discuss such experiences. I thought of them very much like the visions I experience from God for years, except they "felt" different. They just weren't the same as the ones where I just know it's right-here-right-now a message, you know? There was a series of odd events that eventually led me to some startling conclusions, including that these seemed to actually be memories of past lives.

But I also think God chooses what to give me and what not for a reason. I'm learning lessons from these things, whether or not I'm correctly interpreting them as memories, and in the end it's the lesson behind the memory/message and not the belief I build around it that I think matters. So I'm always open to interpretation. I know some people get into meditating or hypnosis or other methods to force the memories to the surface and remember more, but as tempting as it is (I'm so darn curious!), I feel that it is not right. I feel very strongly, actually, that the Spirit has told me not to probe too deeply on my own into my own soul. I am supposed to remain focused on God, and if I remain steadfastly looking to Him, then I won't receive anything I can't handle with His help, or anything that serves no purpose.

I don't think outside of interesting conversation that it has many benefits to widely discuss this with folks, and I rarely do it except with those closest to me. I think a lot of people in our society would just be happy they get more than this one life to get with the program, and even if reincarnation does happen, wasting time is not beneficial to anyone's spiritual well-being, in my opinion. I believe it's best to live every day like it was your last and you are about to be whisked away to God- life is more joyful, passionate, and giving that way.

i see it as more in the fulness of time & we will understand it better on that side of Jordan.

Yep, me too. For now, we see as through a glass dimly, then we shall see in full.

we dont choose. God just does it & at some point we/they reconcile with whatever purpose He has for doing it.

You know, it's funny you should say that. Because I always felt, since I was very small, that there was a reason I'm here. I don't just mean created, I know we were all created to glorify God out of His boundless love for us. But I mean, a reason for me specifically to be here at this moment, in this place, in this body. If what I have are memories, I have some ideas about lessons that I am learning. But I also have always felt very much like I have a purpose here that is broader than me. I still have no clue what that is, but I feel the Spirit preparing me. I ask God all the time, but I get the distinct impression I'm not supposed to figure it out yet.

one dream i remember well, took me into the midst of 3 of the apostles & a short discussion with them concerning a conflict in understanding. i asked God for understanding & i believe this was his way of showing me & confirming.

That must have been an amazing dream. I never seem to get any information quite like that in my visions, either waking or sleeping. I just get shown things, experience things. But I'm a terrible audio learner, so maybe God is just making sure I remember things accurately later! I do feel I receive answers during prayer, and it generally feels like an inner guiding from the Spirit, an inner voice. But I've never met up with any of the saints- though in one vision-dream there was the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen. She radiated light, literally. I don't really know if she was an angel or what. I have always just focused on God, so I really didn't know how to think of her. But she knew me very, very well and was definitely somebody special and did not seem very human, really. She was definitely of God though.

i dont lean in any direction of the established faiths in Christianity or other religions that started after the apostles & stick real close word for word the way it went down in the book of Acts. this was the first of the church, not the History of the religions that came after it.

I pretty much go it alone in terms of beliefs, but recently reading literature on Celtic Christianity I realized that practically all my beliefs are encapsulated in that tradition. It was surprising, but nice to be able to refer to an established tradition of sorts. Of course, for me the foundation is the Spirit and the Word- traditions are for fellowship and helping us out, but it has to come down to God on a personal level for me.

as for nature, i think this is something different also. it is only in the last 5 years i have become one with nature & the creator that way. something unexplainable, but real & i believe God is in it. Like a live vibration that runs from what i touch that comes from the ground through my feet, hands & body-kind of like electricity, but soothing.
i see these things as evidence because of my faith & accept it as a blessing & dont try to add to it or make it happen again.

But i also feel it is seperate from the experience of being filled with the promise of Holy Ghost & the shekinah glory that makes us one in essence with God & nothing material in between. & this is what we want to seek after & stay close to. this is what lets nothing seperate us from Him & from His love.

Very interesting. Yes, I feel that too. I have always felt God very strongly in nature, and I think that's why I try to worship Him out in the wilds when I can get out there. There's just something about it. I can really feel nature glorifying God, and feel His immanence in each of His precious creations. I can also commune with those in nature, in a way- the trees, animals, even sometimes the elements. But to me, yes, it is different from being filled with the Spirit and experiencing God. Going out into nature for me is like going to church, complete with congregation of trees and wild animals. We all fellowship, and sing hymns to God in our diverse languages, and even teach one another the lessons we've learned. But beyond the church of nature, there is that personal experience of God, that personal relationship and the promise of God's eternal love... and that far surpasses anything the congregation can give.

[earl]

Hi path & all other folks on a path. You mentioned a phrase in your post that I often hear Chirstians use as describing their understanding of the path toward God-awareness &/or their purpose for "being here:" "to glorify God." I think I may understand what you're getting at but not sure. Do believe in the old axiom that everyone's purpose for existence involves 2 general aspects: service to self, (that is to grow in spiritual understanding) & service to others, (ultimately 1 in the same). However, I know that the more mundane notion of glorifying God-that there's some anthropomorphic Big entity that creates humans just to have us around to worship it isn't an interpretation that makes sense to me-makes "God" sound like some underdeveloped, emotionally insecure, egotistic person. My journey into Christianity is heavily influenced by my long-standing study of buddhism which continues and how I relate it to Christian mysticism as opposed to traditional Christian doctrines. I see great overlap in those 2 traditions of esotericsm-the inner meaning within the outer forms-in that both are essentially saying the journey is about discovering our ultimate ground of Being which invariably takes us beyond our confining, superficial personal identities. While some schools of buddhism make use of devotional practices they do so esoterically-that is with a nod & a wink that the devotionalism is merely a vehicle to assist us to grow in spiritual awareness-not about appeasing some spiritual entity. Perhaps this particular topic would make for an interesting new discussion thread in itself. Anyway, interested in how folks view this particular issue. Thanks & bless you all, Earl

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Thanks. I know lots of people would just think I'm nuts, so it's only in a web forum or with the closest of friends that I would discuss such experiences. I thought of them very much like the visions I experience from God for years, except they "felt" different. They just weren't the same as the ones where I just know it's right-here-right-now a message, you know? There was a series of odd events that eventually led me to some startling conclusions, including that these seemed to actually be memories of past lives.

It seems like you would remember when & who at some point. Or the memories could be for something in the future instead of memories? Would you say that most of these memories were more when you were younger?

Just one question Path, but you dont have to reply to any of this.
What is the strongest, fondest memory & when do you first remember it?

Originally Posted by path_of_one

But I also think God chooses what to give me and what not for a reason. I'm learning lessons from these things, whether or not I'm correctly interpreting them as memories, and in the end it's the lesson behind the memory/message and not the belief I build around it that I think matters. So I'm always open to interpretation. I know some people get into meditating or hypnosis or other methods to force the memories to the surface and remember more, but as tempting as it is (I'm so darn curious!), I feel that it is not right. I feel very strongly, actually, that the Spirit has told me not to probe too deeply on my own into my own soul. I am supposed to remain focused on God, and if I remain steadfastly looking to Him, then I won't receive anything I can't handle with His help, or anything that serves no purpose..

I have never done hypnosis but I have done meditaiton, but mostly just on God & Jesus & heaven & things like that. I even did a little eastern thought because i came across a real neat teacher who i could relate to. but even that was not the same or held the same power & glory as when I am in prayer with the Lord & meditating just on Him.
I also agree, that we dont have to probe too deep & just accept it as confirmation &/or a blessing that we can be & have these things.
If they are to be used, He will use us when he needs to use us.

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I don't think outside of interesting conversation that it has many benefits to widely discuss this with folks, and I rarely do it except with those closest to me. I think a lot of people in our society would just be happy they get more than this one life to get with the program, and even if reincarnation does happen, wasting time is not beneficial to anyone's spiritual well-being, in my opinion. I believe it's best to live every day like it was your last and you are about to be whisked away to God- life is more joyful, passionate, and giving that way..

I am the same way. Even with panarama & direct answers from Jesus, i pretty much keep that all that to myself & discuss it on occasion with someone close.
Most everyone eventually tells me to get over it & move on. That really bothered me at first, but now it is no big deal.
But it is nice once in awhile to find someone who can relate.

Originally Posted by path_of_one

You know, it's funny you should say that. Because I always felt, since I was very small, that there was a reason I'm here. I don't just mean created, I know we were all created to glorify God out of His boundless love for us. But I mean, a reason for me specifically to be here at this moment, in this place, in this body. If what I have are memories, I have some ideas about lessons that I am learning. But I also have always felt very much like I have a purpose here that is broader than me. I still have no clue what that is, but I feel the Spirit preparing me. I ask God all the time, but I get the distinct impression I'm not supposed to figure it out yet.

LOL. we dont have to figure it all out. Could be that He is preparing us for His glory & to share in His glory & to live eternal in His rest. God has a purpose within the purpose in which He purposed. (i think)

Originally Posted by path_of_one

That must have been an amazing dream. I never seem to get any information quite like that in my visions, either waking or sleeping. I just get shown things, experience things. But I'm a terrible audio learner, so maybe God is just making sure I remember things accurately later! I do feel I receive answers during prayer, and it generally feels like an inner guiding from the Spirit, an inner voice. But I've never met up with any of the saints- though in one vision-dream there was the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen. She radiated light, literally. I don't really know if she was an angel or what. I have always just focused on God, so I really didn't know how to think of her. But she knew me very, very well and was definitely somebody special and did not seem very human, really. She was definitely of God though.

I have been blessed & would not trade it for anything. I have seen the angels, entertained the angels unaware. I only had one dream about an angel when I was going through a real rough time toward the end of a relationship & the angel appeared in the dream as a woman. She took me by the hand & said, "I am not going to let anything happen to you."
I have had visions, that were beyond my comprehension & cannot even begin to explain. After the death of one of my best friends, he appeared to me in a vision & just stood next to me, he just stood there & then walked away, leaving me comforted knowing he was ok.
I even had an awesome vision of crossing Jordan & that one is the most special to me. There was a boat & a bridge, & I could see the people that had gone on before me, on the other side.
But I knew I had to wait before I could cross the river.

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I pretty much go it alone in terms of beliefs, but recently reading literature on Celtic Christianity I realized that practically all my beliefs are encapsulated in that tradition. It was surprising, but nice to be able to refer to an established tradition of sorts. Of course, for me the foundation is the Spirit and the Word- traditions are for fellowship and helping us out, but it has to come down to God on a personal level for me.

Yah. I have looked into all the religions that came out of it too. Except eventually when we are really searching, we come to a wall with them all, where something is not right & we have to go it alone. I think that is really what God wants any way. A one on one. But I also know there are some good churches who are doing there best with what they know.
I am lucky to have been raised in a church that God broke the mold with & would not trade what I got in teaching for all the knowledge & history that all the books could hold.

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Very interesting. Yes, I feel that too. I have always felt God very strongly in nature, and I think that's why I try to worship Him out in the wilds when I can get out there. There's just something about it. I can really feel nature glorifying God, and feel His immanence in each of His precious creations. I can also commune with those in nature, in a way- the trees, animals, even sometimes the elements. But to me, yes, it is different from being filled with the Spirit and experiencing God. Going out into nature for me is like going to church, complete with congregation of trees and wild animals. We all fellowship, and sing hymns to God in our diverse languages, and even teach one another the lessons we've learned. But beyond the church of nature, there is that personal experience of God, that personal relationship and the promise of God's eternal love... and that far surpasses anything the congregation can give.

well you know, it says if we wont praise him, He will have the rocks & hills cry out to praise Him. I like it all too, but not the mosquitos.
I have a thing for the sunset over the ocean or a large body of water. No two are alike. Especially when the whole day is planned around going out to meet the sunset at the end of the day & I see His splendor & mighty works.

[earl]

Boy the tough mind bending questions: why are we here? What is creation and the creation process? I don't propose to know and am no doubt more clueless than many here. Buddhist cosmology/explanation for dependent origination only feels like a partial truth to me as to how/why creation happens, though the part that feels right is to put it in "nnew age" parlance, we come around due to "unfinished business." I'm OK though with pieces of Truth as I don't think it's possible at least on this side of the veil to ever have more than pieces of Truth. But since I opened my trap on the subject of "glorifying God," thought I should at least share where i'm coming from. In Tibetan Buddhism there's a single word exclamation one might give when experiencing the ineffable wonder and amazement of seeing a deeper, truer, Reality which lifts one out of the mundane daily confines of our conventional reality: emaho. Seems to me it's the 1 word Tibetan equivalent expression to the similarly moved Christian who in that moment might utter,"glory be to God!" Part of "glorifying God" to me is just this natural response to being moved/transported out of one's typical self. The only emaho moments I've had thusfar, though, is the wonder and amazement that my wife has put up with me for 20+ years Fortunately, I occasionally have contnented m oments of knowing that beyond and beneath all the surface drama, all is well. The other side of "glorifying God" I think is the other half of that servoce to self/service to others thing I mentioned earlier here. think the more spiritually open we are, the more an innate spiritually-based compassion emerges through us and from us (source ultimately elsewhwere?). When we act in such a way we can become sources of benefit ot others and just as I can say "glory be to God" for God's gift of my wife in my life and in that sense her very being glorifies God, so, too, may we all become conduits for the glory of God sharing at least moments of Truth, Goodness, and Beauty. That to me is the "worship" God and Christ are looking for.
Bless you all, Earl

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by earl

I often hear Chirstians use as describing their understanding of the path toward God-awareness &/or their purpose for "being here:" "to glorify God." I think I may understand what you're getting at but not sure. Do believe in the old axiom that everyone's purpose for existence involves 2 general aspects: service to self, (that is to grow in spiritual understanding) & service to others, (ultimately 1 in the same). However, I know that the more mundane notion of glorifying God-that there's some anthropomorphic Big entity that creates humans just to have us around to worship it isn't an interpretation that makes sense to me-makes "God" sound like some underdeveloped, emotionally insecure, egotistic person.

Hey, earl! Sorry it took me a while to respond- I was out of town for a couple days.

I believe that glorifying God is recognizing and honoring the divine light within ourselves, becoming our deepest self, which is also our self that is connected to God. And in that spiritual development, we necessarily come to a place of compassion and loving-kindness within ourselves, as a result of God's grace within us, and thus long to be of service to others. In those processes, yes, there is the glory of God. I believe nature glorifies God because, unlike humanity, it is what it was created to be- it is its deepest, core self. My dogs are what God created them to be, and in being so, they are glorifying God. I am striving to get to that place within myself. I also believe that in humanity, when we ultimately get to that place in ourselves in which we come closer and closer to God, we see Him more and more in everyday life. We wake up with Him in our hearts, thank Him for little things all day long, recognize the divinity in every person we meet, every flower we see, and in our own self. We come closer to an ever-present awareness of God immanent in everything He created.

[path_of_one]

Bandit--

Not ignoring you- I'll try to get to this later. It's time for church, so I'll get back to ya later!

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Bandit--

Not ignoring you- I'll try to get to this later. It's time for church, so I'll get back to ya later!

its all cool Path. i am in no hurry to be reincarnated. LOL
I am pray church was good.

[illnani1]

PEOPLE PLEASE!!!! There is no reincarnation. Jesus Christ will come again and everyone will know that there is a HEAVEN and there is a HELL!

[path_of_one]

Welcome to CR, illnani!

A few things to get you started:

First, you may want to read the Code of Conduct to ensure that you comply to it. (It is one of the options on the gray bar toward the top of your screen.) This particular forum is "Comparative Studies" and so we are comparing various religions and beliefs in an interfaith manner. We do not allow proselytizing. You are welcome to state your opinion or belief, but people will generally expect engagement and dialogue, and your post does not engage the issues or the material presented here.

Second, why did you bring up a post from 2005 to write a three-sentence response that does not tackle the materials in the post (see Vaj's original post with early Christian references).

Peace to you,
Path