Rebirth

[Manji2012]

Are we reborn as animals? If so, what would be the point, how can a deer or a butterfly get enlightened?

Are we reborn as human? If so, it seems it can not work because there are more people now then before.

Rebirth is not reincarnation: If so, what is the point of a spiritual life? Nobody exists before or after the present.

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by Manji2012

Are we reborn as animals? If so, what would be the point, how can a deer or a butterfly get enlightened?

Are we reborn as human? If so, it seems it can not work because there are more people now then before.

Rebirth is not reincarnation: If so, what is the point of a spiritual life? Nobody exists before or after the present.

Thank you for the gift of representing your honesty and compassion to share truths.

Rebirth could be when we share our seed with another to make a new shade; a child.

So in a literal sense, we (our energy) does continue at the new birth.

Such the same as when we eat or when we return to the soil, a portion of the food's energy lives within us as we nourish the critters of the soil.

The soul of our existence could be what we choose to do; our contribution of our energy to impose a creation; life.

A story (words).

A child.

A newly planted tree.

We can choose to support life and continue by that contribution.

When the body dies; the choice is gone!

[Snoopy]

I consider humans to be part of the animal kingdom.

I don't know what happens after we die, no living person does know.

The Buddha lived in a culture where belief in cyclic existence was the norm; his claim to find no soul was what made him a heretic - hence the rebirth formulation rather than reincarnation of a soul. He said liberation did not require an institution, or ritual, or blind belief. Liberation is available through one's own life.

s.

[Vajradhara]

Namatse Manji,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Manji2012

Are we reborn as animals?

humans are animals... however, yes, human beings can take rebirth as an animal being. we can also take rebirth in the hell realms and in the realms of deities and in the realm of hungry ghosts. Buddhist cosmology indicates 33 seperate realms in which a sentient being can take rebirth.

If so, what would be the point, how can a deer or a butterfly get enlightened?

recall that rebirth is part of the teaching which indicates that even were a being reborn as an animal, they can still hear the Dharma. they cannot practice it but just hearing it will ensure a positive rebirth in a subsequent arising. they will take rebith as a human being once more and, if they have positive karma, will encounter the Dharma and continue along the path.

Are we reborn as human?

yes.

If so, it seems it can not work because there are more people now then before.

how is that a problem? beings get reborn in 33 different realms though, in practice, most rebirth happen between 6 primary realms, including the human as the absolute *best* rebirth that a being can possibly attain.

further, Buddhism teaches that there is sentient life in other places in our universe so the whole process is not limited to this single world system. Buddhist cosmology indicates that there are 100 world systems in our universe with sentient life and whether or not this is a round number or an accurate figure the salient point is that rebirth is not confined to this planet.

Rebirth is not reincarnation: If so, what is the point of a spiritual life?

correct, it is not. in the Buddhist scheme the point of the spiritual life is to Awaken and attain Liberation and then to help other sentient beings do the same.

Nobody exists before or after the present.

precisely... though... nobody exists now, either. at least in any permanent, eternal sense... though, clearly, we have a continuity of consciousness and mental impressions so we say that sentient beings exist but they do not exist independently of their causes and conditions, they are not permanently existing, self sufficient entities.

metta,

~v

[toujour_333]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

further, Buddhism teaches that there is sentient life in other places in our universe so the whole process is not limited to this single world system. Buddhist cosmology indicates that there are 100 world systems in our universe with sentient life and whether or not this is a round number or an accurate figure the salient point is that rebirth is not confined to this planet.

hey vaj,

i was wondering if you could explain more, or at least send me a link where i could read more about the 100 world systems within our universe. this is the first time i have heard of that, so im pretty interested in learning more. hope everything is well.

be well in peace
toujour

[Vajradhara]

Namaste toujour,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by toujour_333

hey vaj,

i was wondering if you could explain more, or at least send me a link where i could read more about the 100 world systems within our universe.

sure thing. there are several different places that you read about this, directly from the Abhidharma or summations by various teachers. here are a few interesting links:

Buddhist Cosmology

A Basic Buddhism Guide: Differences From Other Religions.

basic teaching of Buddhism 10

this is the first time i have heard of that, so im pretty interested in learning more. hope everything is well.

be well in peace
toujour

most of the information regarding this subject is from the Abhidharma section of the canon and can be somewhat difficult to find on the 'net... at least for me at any rate.

within the canon the Buddha speaks of two different orders of world systems.. the 100 fold world system of which our solar system is a part (in modern parlance i have extrapolated this to mean the Local Cluster) and the Billion World system which exists throughout the universe as a whole.

metta,

~v

[Bishadi]

Buddha Net… ideas to contemplate during research of others opinions.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot01.htm

25. The concept of Hell(s) in Buddhism is very different from that of other religions. It is not a place for eternal damnation as viewed by 'almighty creator' religions. In Buddhism, it is just one of the six realms in Samsara [i.e. the worst of three undesirable realms]. Also, there are virtually unlimited number of hells in the Buddhist cosmology as there are infinite number of Buddha worlds.

Maybe realms of thought rather than locations.

18. Buddhist teachings expound no beginning and no end to one's existence or life. There is virtually no recognition of a first cause — e.g. how does human existence first come about?

19. The Dharma provides a very detailed explanation of the doctrine of anatman {anatta in Pali} or soullessness , i.e. there is no soul entity (whether in one life of many lives).

so even as isolated entities as they are often described are actually, neither separate or as an individual ‘soul’ uniquely continuing after the body.

11. Rebirth is another key doctrine in Buddhism and it goes hand in hand with karma. There is a subtle difference between rebirth and reincarnation as expounded in Hinduism. Buddhism rejects the theory of a transmigrating permanent soul, whether created by a god or emanating from a divine essence

7. Dharma (the teachings in Buddhism) exists regardless whether there is a Buddha. Sakyamuni Buddha (as the historical Buddha) discovered and shared the teachings/ universal truths with all sentient beings. He is neither the creator of such teachings nor the prophet of an almighty God to transmit such teachings to others

8. Especially emphasized in Mahayana Buddhism, all sentient beings have Buddha Nature/ Essence. One can become a Buddha (a supreme enlightened being) in due course if one practises diligently and attains purity of mind (ie absolutely no delusions or afflictions).

Each are capable of equally being honest with no delusions, afflictions or predeterminations.

9. In Buddhism, the ultimate objective of followers/practitioners is enlightenment and/or liberation from Samsara; rather than to go to a Heaven (or a deva realm in the context of Buddhist cosmology).

and in each case knowledge can be the liberator from even contemplating a heaven or hell.

5. The liberation of self is the responsibility of one's own self. Buddhism does not call for an unquestionable blind faith by all Buddhist followers. It places heavy emphasis on self-reliance, self discipline and individual striving.

24. Conditioned Arising [Paticcasamuppada in Pali] or Dependent Origination is another key doctrine in Buddhism. This doctrine explains that all psychological and physical phenomena constituting individual existence are interdependent and mutually condition each other; this at the same time describes what entangles sentient beings in samsara

the ‘I’ of individuals is learned selfishness, where the sentience (consciousness) shares the entanglement of all existence; ONE.

Maybe....?!?