rearrangment of prophets in the bible

[didymus]

What is the significance to the arrangement of the books in the Jewish Bible. As you may know, those books were rearranged in the Christian Bible. Some christians say that the books were alterd in order due group them in minor and major prophets. Others say these books are arranged to show the coming of the Messiah.

Does the rearrangement of the books alter the Jewish message? Do you view this as harmful to the sacredness of your Bible?

[robocombot]

I think the Christian arrangment follows the "Septugaint". This is a translation from the Hebrew to Greek. Greek was the international language at the time due to the conquests of Alexander, and i think that many Jews could not speak Hebrew (i may have this wrong!) so i translation into Greek was needed.

In this translation, which was done in 285, 246 B.C- Reign of Ptolamatic II Philidalphius, who commissioned the Greek translation of the Hebrew Torah, the order was changed into that which is now known as the Christian Old Testament. This groups the literature into: Histories, Poetry, Major and Minor Prophets etc. (Minor is reference to the size NOT the importance of the Prophets.) Also some books were split into 2 for some reason :S (Samual was one book originally etc).

At the advent of Christianity the early church seems to of favoured the Septugaint as it was in Greek presumably and stuck with that order of books!

It is interesting to note that the last word of the Old Testament (in Malachi) is curse, which may be unacceptable to Jews.

[dauer]

The septuagint was originally only the Torah, just like the typical targums, translations into Aramaic, which was the lingua franca of most Jews. Whoever did the original translation, by the time the Vulgate was written it was corrupt. And we have absolutely no clue who did the translations of Writings and Prophets, or when they did them. This is the order of the Tanach:

Torah: The Books of Genesis (Bereshit), Exodus (Shemot), Leviticus (Vayikrah), Numbers (Bamidbar) and Deuteronomy (Devarim).



Nevi'im (Prophets): The Books of Joshua, Judges, I Samuel, II Samuel, I Kings, II Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habukkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi. (The last twelve are sometimes grouped together as "Trei Asar" ["Twelve"].)



Ketuvim (Writings): The Books of Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel (although not all that is included in the Christian Canon), Ezra and Nehemiah, I Chronicles, and II Chronicles.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...sm/Tanakh.html

Malachi is not the last book, nor does it end with the word curse.

Each of the three sections of the Tanach was canonized at a different time. Writings was the last part to be canonized. I'm not sure what the significance of the order is within each section, but moving Daniel into Prophets does change the meaning of the book. Christians consider it prophetic. Jews do not. Some of the books that were split were treated so because they were too big for printers to print in one volume.

Dauer

[robocombot]

I stand corrected!

Although i have not come across the reference to missing material in Daniel before. Is it a case of Christians cutting out or adding in material? Is there any resource for this material in english translation?

Malachi is the last book in the Septugaint or Old Testament order. Apparently the last word is "Cherem" . well i dont know any hebrew but found it on a here on this "Hebrew Lexicon":

http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/he...i?number=02764

translates (apparently) as: accursed, accursed thing, curse, cursed thing.


If this is not the last word then what is it?

[dauer]

Originally Posted by robocombot

I stand corrected!

Although i have not come across the reference to missing material in Daniel before. Is it a case of Christians cutting out or adding in material? Is there any resource for this material in english translation?

Well you'd be able to find it in a Christian text, I believe. I don't know what the reason is for the differences. Maybe they did add something. It would be helpful if we knew what the material was. There's also something that was revealed by the DSS discovery, that there were multiple versions of some scrolls. That might be the issue. I did a quick google search and found an article that claims there were additions to Esther and Daniel, most likely made after it was translated into Greek. It also goes over some other issues with the Septuagint.

http://www.livius.org/se-sg/septuagi...ptuaginta.html

But in my quick search I didn't actually find the verses that are different.

Malachi is the last book in the Septugaint or Old Testament order. Apparently the last word is "Cherem" . well i dont know any hebrew but found it on a here on this "Hebrew Lexicon":

http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/he...i?number=02764

translates (apparently) as: accursed, accursed thing, curse, cursed thing.

It does end in cherem. I don't see how that's a problem since it's talking about God sending Elijah. There is something else in Hebrew contained in brackets that is translated: "Lo, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before the coming of the awesome, fearful day of the Lord." I'm not sure why.

But the last book is 2 Chronicles in the Tanach. Torah, Nevi'im (Prophets) Ketuvim (Writings) and that's also the order of canonization.


Dauer

[didymus]

I know this is a Judaic thread but I couldn't help but notice in Malachai 4:6 that it says," He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers."

When Jesus came he stated that he was there as a sword to divide families. This doesn't seem to fit into Malachai which I am assuming was put at the end to forecast the coming of Christ.

[dauer]

didymus, what books are included with the Septuagint? Are the Writings and Prophets simply reversed, so that the Writings appear first? In that case it could just be that the Prophets, the books which speak of the messiah and the time of the coming of the messiah, were placed at the end and not just Malachi. Malachi is the last book of Prophets in the Jewish canon, but Writings comes after Prophets. Are the Writings absent from the Septuagint?

[robocombot]

Originally Posted by didymus

I know this is a Judaic thread but I couldn't help but notice in Malachai 4:6 that it says," He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers."

When Jesus came he stated that he was there as a sword to divide families. This doesn't seem to fit into Malachai which I am assuming was put at the end to forecast the coming of Christ.

exposition:

"and the heart of the children to their fathers";
or "with" their fathers; that is, both fathers and children: the meaning is, that John the Baptist should be an instrument of converting many of the Jews, both fathers and children, and bringing them to the knowledge and faith of the true Messiah; and reconcile them together who were divided by the schools of Hillell and Shammai, and by the sects of the Sadducees and Pharisees, and bring them to be of one mind, judgment, and faith, and to have a hearty love to one another, and the Lord Christ; see (Matthew 3:5,6) The Talmudists interpret this of composing differences, and making peace"

curse;
The threat here is that, if this restoration were not effected, Messiah's coming would prove "a curse" to the "earth," not a blessing.