rabbinic interpretation and jewish law is neither "worship" nor "shirk"

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Abdullah,

As the meaning of the religion is submission to G!d I'd say you may have something as Jews and Christians believe in submission to G!d albeit differently than Muslims.

Peace Wil

A religion is only 'Islam' only if it's teachings remains undistorted to the extent where it does not include any beleifs that constitue disbeleif, or shirk [associating partners with God], so if people make their own man-made religions [by iether distorting the original heavenly revealed religions to the above mentioned extent, or by thinking it up without any reference to past divine guidances], and calim to be "submitting to God", this claim itself is not enough to render their religions as the true 'Islam' [submission to God].

Originally Posted by wil

I do find it interesting in the beginning of your post you insist Jews are Muslims and by the end deny their text.

You have misunderstood my friend ; what I meant is that, the tribe of Jews follow their own man made religion, for they have distorted the original religion of moses [as] to be just that; a man-made one, and the true followers of Moses [and even Jesus [pbuh] for that matter] are the Muslims.

Originally Posted by wil

I also find it interesting that I've heard Muslims refer to Jews and Christians alternately as people of the Book, and honored for that and then looked on with disdain as they don't follow the Quran.

'People of the Book', merely means, "the people to whom former revelations were revealed"; it does not neccassarily mean that they are upon correct guidance, for even if they have distorted their religions to be rendered man-made ones, yet they still remain the people to who'm former revelations were revealed, so one cannot take that title away from them.

The Quran itself shows how if the 'People of the Book' do not accept Islam, they render themselves as kaafirs [rejectors of the one and only true faith/disbeleivers] and will end in hell forever:

2.89: And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them that which they recognized, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on Kafirun.

The above verse shows how part of the 'People of the Book' [Jews] brought the curse of Allah upon them by rejecting the Quran, and how Allah declared them to be kaafirs [rejectors of the one and only true faith]; the follow up verse to that verse in is one of the post above; in it it says how the consequence of rejecting the Quran is a humiliating chastisement' in the hereafter.

98:6. Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.

The tafsir [interpretation] of the above verse is as follows:

Tafsir almiqbas, ibn Abbas:

(Lo! those who disbelieve) in Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur'an, (among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters) i.e. the idolaters among the people of Mecca, (will abide in fire of Hell) never to die therein or leave it. (They are the worst of created beings.

Altafsir.com – The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

Allah informs of what will happen to the wicked disbelievers among the People of the Scripture and the idolators who oppose the Allah's divinely revealed Books and the Prophets whom He sent. He says that they will be in the fire of Hell on the Day of Judgement and they will abide therein forever. This means that they will remain in it and they will have no way out of it and they will not cease being in it.

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

So there you have it my friend; even the 'people of the Book' can be the worst of creatures that deserve eternal chastisement in hell; those are the words of God Allmighy, not me.

Originally Posted by wil

And yes you are correct one can easily search the net for page after page of contradictions in the Old Testament, or New Testament, and I think these are great for folks of their respective religion to review, contemplate and meditate on so as they will develop an answer to each and everyone, many of which are quite easy to explain and many of which are specious, some however take some undertaking to understand and have been debated for centuries.

Of course if one were to google contradictions in the Koran one would have similar results and hours of exploration to do...there are only 213,000 hits...

The Quran confirms for us that the Jews have distorted the Torah, and the late great Ahmad Deedat has proved the contradictions of the Bible [Old? and New testament], in the face of intense debate with the expert Scholars of the Bible, to be unreasonable, non-sensical and having major intellectual impasses, and Allah tells us in the Quran that if the Quran was not from Allah, it will have many contradictions/incongruities in it, thus when we put all of this together, it becomes verry clear that the Bible distortions are indeed the result of fabrications and distortions by man, and not something that can be intellectually explained away.

There may be some seemingly contradcitions in the Quran, but they all have been proven many times over to not to be real contradictions at all, and that all it takes is a little deep and contexctual interpretation to put it into persective and harmony with the rest of the Quran.

Hope that helps

Peace.

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Perhaps you should not believe everything you read on the net:

105 contradictions of the Quran

Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an

There are only 7 on here but they are quite well thought out

Contradictions in the Qur'an, Koran

This is from answering christinity and is a rebuttal to a post about contradictions in the Quran:

There are no contradictions in the Quran. I really hope that people out there would be objective and search for the truth and if they think that there are contradictions in the Quran then they should go and search for the rebuttal to it. Then they judge for themselves.

I answered a simmilar response in the above post, so I'll just refer you to that rather than type it all out again

Peace

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

And the next part of that verse shows that Allah reffered to the jews that converted to Islam [and the Muslims], by saying: " believe in that which is revealed unto thee, and that which was revealed before thee". So both these groups that Allah refers to ["But those who are frim in knowledge", I.e, the Jews that are firm in knoweldge, and "the Believers", i.e, the Muslims], for obviously the Jews that beleive in "that whcih has been revealed unto thee" [the Quran], alongside their Torah, are the Jews who naturally accepted Muhammad [saw's] message [as they were frim in knowledge, i.e, they knew? that Muhammad [saw] was prophecised in their Torah, and they understood [for they never entertained kufr in their hearts] the clear signs brought by Muhammad saw], thus they became Muslims...

PEACE.

Where it says: "so both these groups Allah refers to", and thereafter follows, in brakets, the part of the Quranic verse that refers to two groups, the following should follow after the brakets: "are Muslims",

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by abdullah

'Jew' is a tribe, according to Islam, and not a religion.

what utter bilge. if islam teaches this, then it hasn't checked its facts. i personally don't believe "islam" teaches any such thing. i think this is a MANMADE INTERPRETATION that is being passed off as islam to people like you. for your information, there are three extant tribes of jews, one being the levites (of which the cohanim are part) and the others being judah and benjamin. these are passed down in the male line but in practice nowadays the vast majority of people from judah or benjamin do not know which tribe they belong to, so all are known as "yisrael". i think this is an example of a C6th perception being projected onto a C21st reality. you do know, abdullah, that jews lived elsewhere in the world than C6th arabia, right? are all jews, then, part of this "tribe"? and of what value is this definition if those who are so defined do not accept it? to my knowledge there are NO jews whatsoever who accept this and, frankly, why should they? where the hell do you get off with this kind of arrogance?

The religion taught by all Prophets was always Islam, and the followers of those religions were and are Muslims.

if you mean they "submitted to G!D", that i would agree with. if you mean they all anticipated the Qur'an and the sunnah and accepted the five pillars and so on, then i'm sorry, you're an absolute idiot. presumably noah, who is an islamic prophet, was being islamic when he got drunk? or was that too a jewish "distortion"?

There were some changes in the guidance of the religion [but never in the essential theological beliefs...

what, that G!D Is One? that's still just about the only thing we agree on.

The original Torah had in it the news of the coming of the Prophet Jesus and Muhammad [saw]

this is your opinion, i'm afraid. you will not find one jew, or anyone else other than a muslim - and certainly christians will not agree that muhammad is in the Torah!

There are indeed Jews left, for they are the tribe that are called Jews, but the only true followers of Moses [pbuh], are the Muslims, for it is part of moses religion [and the religion of all other prophets] to accept the latest Messenger and revelation; that is why Muslims are considered to be the followers of all the Prophets.

considered BY THEMSELVES. if this is your opinion, then frankly, you have no place on a dialogue board, because if you're really just here to display your arrogance i don't see any point.

although jesus came with clear signs from Allah? I don't think the argument that, "Oh Allah, we weren't convinced Jesus was a Prophet, although he was Prophecised in our Torah and he performed miracles like raising the dead, and he was affirmed in Your Last revelation, because the romans convinced us that he weren't??? , will go down well with Allah, do you?

unfortunately, he also publicly desecrated the sabbath and although great lengths are gone to try and prove that jesus fits all the prophecy of the messiah in the old testament, it is still far from "clear", despite what you wish to believe. desecration of the sabbath alone is a "clear" sign that a prophet is false, according to the Torah. if you knew anything about Torah, you'd know this, but you are in fact completely ignorant of it, preferring your own dogma and twisted propaganda.

here is a list of the contradictions in the Torah...

all the apparent contradictions in the Torah can be (and have been) resolved by our own "rightly guided" scholars and sages through the medium of the halakhah, of which you appear to be completely ignorant. they refer, for example to different cases in which different rules apply.

An undistorted revelation form Allah will be free of contradictions and incongruities.

well, that would be a bit of a problem for the Qur'an, wouldn't it, then, seeing as it completely contradicts itself about the jews, by your own account? on one hand, apparently we're "ahl al-qitab" and all that, but on the other hand, we're also "kuffar". the so-called resolution, that the only "real" jews are those that convert to islam is absolutely ludicrous. i'd laugh if you weren't so scary in your blithe chauvinism which is founded on utter lack of knowledge.

Peace

hah. i doubt it unless you actually remove your head from where it is at the moment.

now, back to the non-bigots:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Unfortuantely Muslims often hold this view but I am delighted to say not all, including born Muslims. Many accept that as the Quran talks to Muslims in given times and at given places, it also refers to Jews and Christians in the same way.

i am, fortunately, aware of this, for there are many muslims engaged in interfaith dialogue and working for peace, tolerance and understanding, not swanning around lecturing everyone else on how they're the only ones not going to hell. i would be delighted to introduce you to my dear friend halima krausen from hamburg, who is a great islamic scholar and a wonderful woman in all respects:

halimakrausen 's Home Page

i have learned much of islam from her.

Exactly the same accusation can be levelled at the Muslims. I assume you have heard of fatwas, these are scholars opinions that we are not obliged to follow but morally should follow, as the scholars know our faith better than we do. We have fatwas that deal with issues never heard of in the Quran or Sunnah, so this is man made.

"man-made" is an entirely spurious qualifier. interpretation takes place the moment one person explains a text to another.

Abdullah is here to make dawah (earn good deeds by spreading Islam, to earn good deeds you have to spread the true Islam, he believes his version is true and I believe mine is - Allah will judge us both).

well, what he's actually doing seems to me to be in breach of the code of conduct. this statement, for example:

Moses' [AS] religion was Islam, and it's adherants were Muslims; the name 'Judaism', that was named after the Jewish tribe, was given to the man-made religion created by the Jews who went astray and distorted the Torah, and thus created their own man-made religion, claiming it to be the orignial religion of moses [as].

is, as far as i can tell, not only in breach of the CoC but is actually anti-semitic, in that it accuses the whole of judaism of being a lie. so i will be reporting it to the moderators.

So breaking the Sabbath would be like me eating or drinking during a fast?

well, kind of. it depends which fast. you can generally judge the seriousness of an offence by how you get stoned or how much you get lashed or fined. what fun!

The myth I was thinking of is that the Jewish oral tradition existed long before the Torah but because the Jews didn't hold to the covenant with G-d, the Torah was sent which included a number of new 'commandments'. So feel free to shoot me down in flames on that one.

i think the line that the sages take is that the earlier patriarchs had partial pre-Torah revelations and figured a lot of stuff out on the basis of that. it is also agreed that there was a certain amount of pre-Torah oral tradition, otherwise how could the patriarchs have got married? we find them circumcising their sons, not eating the gid ha-nasheh (sciatic nerve) and even a case of yibum (levirate marriage). there were a number of previous covenants, including the "noahide covenant" (hence the noahide laws) and the "covenant between the parts" after abraham was circumcised.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i personally don't believe "islam" teaches any such thing. i think this is a MANMADE INTERPRETATION that is being passed off as islam to people like you. for your information, there are three extant tribes of jews, one being the levites (of which the cohanim are part) and the others being judah and benjamin. these are passed down in the male line but in practice nowadays the vast majority of people from judah or benjamin do not know which tribe they belong to, so all are known as "yisrael". i think this is an example of a C6th perception being projected onto a C21st reality. you do know, abdullah, that jews lived elsewhere in the world than C6th arabia, right? are all jews, then, part of this "tribe"? and of what value is this definition if those who are so defined do not accept it? to my knowledge there are NO jews whatsoever who accept this and, frankly, why should they? where the...this kind of arrogance?

Please keep calm banabrain; I know you may not be happy to hear of the Islamic view regardnig your religion, but the way forward is to discuss/debate and share views respectfully. . We may have different views regardnig one and anothers religion, but that does not mean we can't remain friendly towards one another .

Jews [Yahudi] is a reference to the children of Israel [the Prophet Israel [as], aka, the Prophet Yaqub [as], who was the son of Ibraheem's [as] son, Ishaaq.

Therafter, the Jews may consider themselves to be different tribes, i.e, "the twelve tribe of Israel", denotes twelve different tribes, but waht I meant is that, they are one tribe in the sense that they share a common forefather; Israel [as].

And here is the evidence from the Quran that the religion revealed to all Prophets was Islam, and that all Prophets and their followers were Muslims [this view is the ahle Sunnah view [Sunni Islam/mainstream Islam], as I learnt it from ahle Sunnah Scholars myself]; as explained by Sheikh Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips:

The True Religion

some excerpts from that article:

Islam is the religion which was given to Adam, the first man and the first prophet of Allah, and it was the religion of all the prophets sent by Allah to mankind. The name of God's religion lslam was not decided upon by later generations of man. It was chosen by Allah Himself and clearly mentioned in His final revelation to man. In the final book of divine revelation, the Qur'aan, Allah states the following:

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". (Soorah Al-Maa'idah 5:3)

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah (God) never will It be accepted of Him" (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:85)

"Abraham was not a Jew nor Christian; but an upright Muslim." (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:67)

Nowhere in the Bible will you find Allah saying to Prophet Moses' people or their descendants that their religion is Judaism, nor to the followers of Christ that their religion is Christianity.

In fact, Christ was not even his name, nor was it Jesus! The name "Christ" comes from the Greek word Christos which means the annointed. That is, Christ is a Greek translation of the Hebrew title "Messiah". The name "Jesus" on the other hand, is a latinized version of the Hebrew name Esau.

For simplicity's sake, I will however continue to refer to Prophet Esau (PBUH) as Jesus. As for his religion, it was what he called his followers to. Like the prophets before him, he called the people to surrender their will to the will of Allah; (which is Islam) and he warned them to stay away from the false gods of human imagination.

And here are some excerpts from another article:

What is Islam: Islam is not simply the name of a religion, the followers of which are called Muslims. The word 'Islam' is an arabic word which in relation to religion means submission. In simple words Islam means submission to God and to follow the instructions conveyed by the Prophet of one's time e.g.Islam at the time of Abrahim (peace be upon him) was to obey the orders of God and to follow the instructions of the Prophet Abrahim (p.b.u.h). Islam at the time of Moses (peace be upon him) was to obey the orders of God and to follow the instructions of the Prophet Moses (p.b.u.h). Islam at the time of Jesus (peace be upon him) was to obey the orders of God and to follow the instructions of the Prophet Jesus (p.b.u.h). In the same manner, Islam after the arrival of the last Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is to obey the orders of God and to follow the instructions of the Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h).

Who is a Muslim: Muslim is not a name of a particular group but an arabic word for one who submits to the concept of Islam (as mentioned above), also known as 'Believers' e.g. In the era of Prophet Moses (p.b.u.h), people who followed him, believed in all the Prophets and Revelations before him and obeyed the orders of God were Muslims. In the era of Prophet Jesus (p.b.u.h), people who followed him, believed in all the Prophets and Revelations before him and obeyed the orders of God were Muslims. In the same manner, after the arrival of the last Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h), people who follow him, believe in all the Prophets and Revelations before him and obey the orders of God are known as Muslims.

Who is a Non-Muslim: Those who do not submit to the concept of Islam are known as Non-Muslims or Disbelievers e.g. The followers of Moses (p.b.u.h) were Muslims when they followed him and obeyed the orders of God, but when some of them denied the prophet-hood of Jesus (p.b.u.h) who came after Moses (p.b.u.h) and whatever was revealed upon him, they fell in the category of non-muslims, as they breached the concept of Islam. Those who accepted Jesus (p.b.u.h) and what was revealed upon him, remained Muslims. Similarly the followers of Jesus (p.b.u.h) were Muslims when they followed him and obeyed the orders of God, but when some of them denied the prophet-hood of Muhammad (p.b.u.h) who came after Jesus (p.b.u.h) and the revelation which he brought, they fell in the category of non-muslims, as they breached the concept of Islam. Those who accepted Muhammad (p.b.u.h) and the revelation which he brouhgt, remained Muslims. In the same manner the followers of Muhammad (p.b.u.h) are Muslims since they follow him and obey the orders of God, but if they deny the prophet-hood of any Prophet before Muhammad (p.b.u.h) whether it is of Jesus (p.b.u.h), Moses (p.b.u.h) or any other, or deny any of the previous Revelations, or give the status of Prophet to anyone after the last Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) then they will fall in the category of non-muslims due to breaching the concept of Islam.

The Religion Islam

The above views are basically what the mainstream Scholars of islam teach, and if you find one ahle Sunnah Scholar [or even shia Scholar] that differs from the above views, then please let me know

Originally Posted by bananabrain

if you mean they "submitted to G!D", that i would agree with. if you mean they all anticipated the Qur'an and the sunnah and accepted the five pillars and so on, then i'm sorry, you're an absolute idiot. presumably noah, who is an islamic prophet, was being islamic when he got drunk? or was that too a jewish "distortion"?

I've been meaning to check these claims out...; does it say in the Torah that past Prophets commited some major sins?; if so, then this is a clear proof of distortions in the Torah, as from the Quran and Sunnah we know that the Prophets were absolutely sinless; there may be some Islamic Scholars that opine that Prophets did commit minor sins [but they were forgiven], but no Islamic Scholar, would say that a prophet commited a major sin in his life.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

well, that would be a bit of a problem for the Qur'an, wouldn't it, then, seeing as it completely contradicts itself about the jews, by your own account? on one hand, apparently we're "ahl al-qitab" and all that, but on the other hand, we're also "kuffar". the so-called resolution, that the only "real" jews are those that convert to islam is absolutely ludicrous. i'd laugh if you weren't so scary in your blithe chauvinism which is founded on utter lack of knowledge.

There is no contradiction in that the ahle Kithab could also be kuffar; could the people, to who'm former revelations were revealed, adopt beliefs that constitutes rejection of Gods religion?; if that is possible, then they could be 'ahle kithab' and 'kuffar' at the same time.

Peace

[Abdullah]

The first part of Shaykh Bilal Philips' article also explains where the name 'Judaism' came from:

The first thing that one should know and clearly understand about Islam is what the word "Islam" itself means. The religion of Islam is not named after a person as in the case of Christianity which was named after Jesus Christ, Buddhism after Gotama Buddha, Confucianism after Confucius, and Marxism after Karl Marx. Nor was it named after a tribe like Judaism after the tribe of Judah and Hinduism after the Hindus. Islam is the true religion of "Allah" and as such, its name represents the central principle of Allah's "God's" religion; the total submission to the will of Allah "God". The Arabic word "Islam" means the submission or surrender of one's will to the only true god worthy of worship "Allah" and anyone who does so is termed a "Muslim", The word also implies "peace" which is the natural consequence of total submission to the will of Allah. Hence, it was not a new religion brought by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) I in Arabia in the seventh century, but only the true religion of Allah re-expressed in its final form.

The True Religion

Peace.

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

what, that G!D Is One? that's still just about the only thing we agree on.

It is only expected for the latest guidance from Allah, to be simmilar to past revelations, so there is more simmilarities between Judaism [which retains some of the original teachings of Moses pbuh]? and islam.

The following video explains those simmilarities:

Judaism and Islam

Peace.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

The context of the above verse is where Allah talks about the Jews who are astray, then Allah mentions the abvoe verse, saying "But those of them [those of the Jews] who are firm in knowledge, and the beleivers..."

Now read that back to yourself. Allah talks of Jews that have gone astray and Jews that are firm in knowledge. There is nothing about converts, just Jews. So are you going to judge who is astray and who is firm in knowledge and if so what criteria will you use to judge them?

Originally Posted by Abdullah

And the next part of that verse shows that Allah reffered to the jews that converted to Islam [and the Muslims], by saying: " believe in that which is revealed unto thee, and that which was revealed before thee".

What was revealed to the Jews was the Torah. Anyway, even if G-d judges that every Jew is astray because of their beliefs, my point is that is for Allah to decide not you or I. G-d may judge you or I as astray, nobody knows what is only Allah's to know. How many Muslims will Allah ato heaven and how many Muslims are there, past and present? The correct answer of course is only Allah knows.

By the way if you are going to Quote verses of the Quran then it perhaps better if you quote just the Quran and not verses with interpretations and comments included in the verse, these can be added after but would it not be wrong to mislead people into thinking the Quran says what it does not?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

For simplicity's sake, I will however continue to refer to Prophet Esau (PBUH) as Jesus.

Don't try to be a wiseass Abdullah you have never referred to Isa (pbuh) as Esau and I have read so many of your posts.

Originally Posted by Abdullah

if so, then this is a clear proof of distortions in the Torah, as from the Quran and Sunnah we know that the Prophets were absolutely sinless; there may be some Islamic Scholars that opine that Prophets did commit minor sins [but they were forgiven], but no Islamic Scholar, would say that a prophet commited a major sin in his life.

Now you go way too far, why are you calling Allah (swt) a liar??????

Now you will try to make the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), divine? Only Allah is without sin, our Beloved Prophet was a human and all humans sin. The degree varies but that is all. The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was only sinless when it came to the issue of the revelation of the Quran, he gave us the Quran exactly as it was given to him, without altering a single letter, because this is protected by Allah (swt).

040.055PICKTHAL: Then have patience (O Muhammad). Lo! the promise of Allah is true. And ask forgiveness of thy sin, and hymn the praise of thy Lord at fall of night and in the early hours.

047.019PICKTHAL: So know (O Muhammad) that there is no Allah save Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy sin and for believing men and believing women. Allah knoweth (both) your place of turmoil and your place of rest.

048.002
PICKTHAL: That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come, and may perfect His favour unto thee, and may guide thee on a right path,

If you do not believe Allah (swt) perhaps you will be persuaded by the Companions of the Prophet?:

Narrated Abu Musa Al—Ash'ari:
The Prophet used to invoke Allah, saying, "O Allah! Forgive my mistakes and my ignorance and my exceeding the limits (i.e., my sins)"
(Bukhari, vol. 8, no. 6398)

What about Al-Ghazzali will you belive him?

Al-Ghazzali, who died in the early part of the twelfth century, stated in Part IV of Ihya' `Ulum al-Din, "The proof of the invariable necessity of repentance in all cases is that no one of mankind is free from bodily sin. The prophets also were not free from it, for the Koran and the Traditions mention the sins of the prophets, together with their repentance and weeping for them"

Who do you think you are Abdullah to treat our faith in this way, to twist and distort to win an argument and make yourself believe the hatred in your heart is accepted by Allah (swt) or the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i would be delighted to introduce you to my dear friend halima krausen from hamburg, who is a great islamic scholar and a wonderful woman in all respects:

Shalom BB

You have my deepest gratitude, a female Islamic scholar and a German, I am so grateful. Inshallah I shall learn much from her.

Salaam
MW

[Muslimwoman]

as salaam aleykum wr wb Abdullah

Please try to see what you are doing. Our Beloved Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) taught us to live among the people of the book with patience and tolerence. Allah (swt) Himself teaches us that He is the only judge of all of mankind.

Do not be arrogant, it does not become a Muslim to behave in this way. I admire your desire to follow our faith and may Allah (swt) bless you for your intention but please, please see that we must follow all of the Quran, not just the pieces that make us feel superior.

May Allah (swt) guide your heart from hatred.

Salaam

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

May Allah (swt) guide your heart from hatred.

Salaam

I am merely answering questions sis with the correct Islamic views, whcih are the views of maintstream Islam, and I have provided evidence from the Quran and Sunnah to back up my claims; so how can that be hatred?

Some of my posts may have been a bit straight to the point, but that was in response to misunderstandings, or responses to posts that needed a more clear and elaborate explanation.

Peace.

ps: Dawah, whcih is the underlying core intention of my posts, is the utmost respect and love one can show towards a person, for it is only out of these feelings and attitude, will one want the best [salvation] for another, so in reality sis, my posts are full of love and respect towards who'm ever I reply to, and to whatever group of people I adress.

Peace.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

I am merely answering questions sis with the correct Islamic views, whcih are the views of maintstream Islam, and I have provided evidence from the Quran and Sunnah to back up my claims; so how can that be hatred?

And yet you make such a fundamental error as the one I mentioned earlier, regarding Prophets (pbut) and sin, which I notice you ignored.

Originally Posted by Abdullah

Some of my posts may have been a bit straight to the point, but that was in response to misunderstandings, or responses to posts that needed a more clear and elaborate explanation.

Some of your posts are not straight to the point Abdullah, they are simply insulting. To tell a sister she is mentally ill or has the iq of a 5 year old, because she does not agree with your interpretation, is not straight to the point it is simply insulting and childish. To tell a Jew or Christian what their religion says or what they believe, is not straight to the point it is simply arrogance.

Originally Posted by Abdullah

so in reality sis, my posts are full of love and respect towards who'm ever I reply to, and to whatever group of people I adress.

In reality Abdullah your posts can only be full of love and respect if they are perceived that way by the person you are talking to. If people are insulted by your posts, which clearly they are at times, then perhaps it is time you reconsider your method for making dawah. There is no point earning a good deed if you immediately cancel it out with a bad deeds (and I would respectfully suggest that calling Allah a liar is a SIN).

I seriously urge to look at the way you speak to people. You do not have to like me or agree with anything I say but just step back and look at the reactions you are getting and ask yourself if you are being a good advertisment for our faith or if you are simply being arrogant.

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Don't try to be a wiseass Abdullah you have never referred to Isa (pbuh) as Esau and I have read so many of your posts.

I posted up excerpts of Shaykh Abu Ameenah Bilah Philips' article sis, they were not my own words

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Now you go way too far, why are you calling Allah (swt) a liar??????

Now Now Now sis, you really should 'verify' before you get that angry!

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Now you will try to make the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), divine? Only Allah is without sin, our Beloved Prophet was a human and all humans sin. The degree varies but that is all. The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was only sinless when it came to the issue of the revelation of the Quran, he gave us the Quran exactly as it was given to him, without altering a single letter, because this is protected by Allah (swt).

040.055PICKTHAL: Then have patience (O Muhammad). Lo! the promise of Allah is true. And ask forgiveness of thy sin, and hymn the praise of thy Lord at fall of night and in the early hours.

047.019PICKTHAL: So know (O Muhammad) that there is no Allah save Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy sin and for believing men and believing women. Allah knoweth (both) your place of turmoil and your place of rest.

048.002
PICKTHAL: That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come, and may perfect His favour unto thee, and may guide thee on a right path,

If you do not believe Allah (swt) perhaps you will be persuaded by the Companions of the Prophet?:

Narrated Abu Musa Al—Ash'ari:
The Prophet used to invoke Allah, saying, "O Allah! Forgive my mistakes and my ignorance and my exceeding the limits (i.e., my sins)"
(Bukhari, vol. 8, no. 6398)

What about Al-Ghazzali will you belive him?

Al-Ghazzali, who died in the early part of the twelfth century, stated in Part IV of Ihya' `Ulum al-Din, "The proof of the invariable necessity of repentance in all cases is that no one of mankind is free from bodily sin. The prophets also were not free from it, for the Koran and the Traditions mention the sins of the prophets, together with their repentance and weeping for them"

There may be two valid views regardnig this matter sis, and I did say that some Scholars may opine that the Prophets did commit minor sins didn't I?

All valid views are derived from the Quran and Sunnah sis, so therefore my view [whcih is a valid mainstream one] is based on it too, so I wouldn't be wrong by saying that we know from the Quran and Sunnah that the Prophets were absolutely sinless.

The way the Scholars interpret them verses in which says that the Prophets "asked forgiveness for their sins", is that the prophets used to "ask forgiveness for their sins", although they were sinless, out of fear of Allah, humility and gratitude.

Here is a fatwa from the ahle Sunnah Imaam, Mufti Ibraheem Desai, that explains this view further:

All the scholars, of Ilmul Kalaam (experts in the field of Aqaaid and
beliefs) are unanimous that every prophet was free from Shirk (ascribing
partnership with Allah), Kufr (disbelief) and sins. (Shahul Aqaaid)

Allah Ta'ala has mentioned incidents of some prophets who were rebuked by
Allah for making decisions that were not contextually appropriate (judgment
by error). That is not a sin. However, due to their lofty status in the
sight of Allah Ta'ala, they were rebuked. An example of that is Rasulullah
(Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) granting freedom to the captives of the battle
of Badr. Allah Ta'ala rebuked Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) for
that. Granting freedom to captives was not a sin but an error in judgment.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
FATWA DEPT.

Ask-Imam.com: Search for sinless

And here are links of Sunnipath.com that explains this view further:

The Prophets are Protected from Sin

How Are The Prophets Protected From Error And Sin?

Peace.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

There may be two valid views regardnig this matter sis, and I did say that some Scholars may opine that the Prophets did commit minor sins didn't I?

Yes you did in your usual 'but of course we dismiss their views' tone.

Originally Posted by Abdullah

All valid views are derived from the Quran and Sunnah sis, so therefore my view [whcih is a valid mainstream one] is based on it too, so I wouldn't be wrong by saying that we know from the Quran and Sunnah that the Prophets were absolutely sinless.

Please provide the Quranic verses to support this view.

Oh here we go again, so the Prophets were sinful and sinless and both views are valid. You don't really actually believe that the Prophets can be both sinful and sinless do you? The suggestion here is that Allah (swt) doesn't have a clue what He is talking about, because He clearly states that the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) has sinned and will sin in the future.

If you read up on this issue in Islamic history you will find that the idea of all Prophets being sinless was originally a Shia idea and Sunni scholars did not agree. Then over time the view was adopted by the Sunni scholars. Now refer back to Al-Ghazzali to see how late in the Islamic history that Sunni scholars changed their view on this issue and ask yourself if that could possibly be the true interpretation of the Quran. I specifically used a quote by Al-Ghazzali as you have relied so heavily on his views in the past.