rabbinic interpretation and jewish law is neither "worship" nor "shirk"

[Muslimwoman]

Abdullah, this is a very interesting topic, don't you think. I have done a Quran search and there are 23 verses which specifically talk about the Jews but of course there are surrounding verses that refer to them.

I found a number of verses that I feel show that Allah was talking to a certain group of Jews but I was particularly intrigued by these verses and wondered if you could comment on the verse in bold please:

002.140PICKTHAL: Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know best, or doth Allah? And who is more unjust than he who hideth a testimony which he hath received from Allah? Allah is not unaware of what ye do.


004.159PICKTHAL: There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -

004.160PICKTHAL: Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were (before) made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allah's way,

004.161PICKTHAL: And of their taking usury when they were forbidden it, and of their devouring people's wealth by false pretences, We have prepared for those of them who disbelieve a painful doom.

004.162PICKTHAL: But those of them who are firm in knowledge and the believers believe in that which is revealed unto thee, and that which was revealed before thee, especially the diligent in prayer and those who pay the poor-due, the believers in Allah and the Last Day. Upon these We shall bestow immense reward.

4:159 I certainly do not think that I can dispute that faithful Jews believe in G-d, can you?

In 4:162 is the Quran itself, the unquestionable Word of G-d, not saying here that there are among the Jews those that follow the right path and will receive immense rewards from G-d? None of the translations I can find say "those who WERE firm in knowledge", they all say ARE firm in knowledge, except for Shakir who translates it as simply 'the firm in knowledge'.


BB verse 4:47 of the Quran refers to Jews that broke the Sabbath. I understand that the Sabbath is your Holy Day, so is there a recorded time in your history where certain Jews broke the Sabbath and what does it mean to break the Sabbath?

In verse 4:160 above it refers to making unlawful what was lawful. At what time in the Jewish history did this happen? Sorry, just trying to establish if it was at the giving of the Torah.

In your opinion could verse 4:161 above be referring to the money lenders that Jesus (pbuh) expelled from the temple?

Thank you for your comments gentlemen.

Salaam
MW

[Muslimwoman]

Sorry don't know why it is all coming up as bold at the bottom, hope you can pick out the relevant portions for each of you.

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Abdullah, this is a very interesting topic, don't you think. I have done a Quran search and there are 23 verses which specifically talk about the Jews but of course there are surrounding verses that refer to them.

I found a number of verses that I feel show that Allah was talking to a certain group of Jews but I was particularly intrigued by these verses and wondered if you could comment on the verse in bold please:

All you need to do is to check up on the tafsir of those verses fro the right interpretation sis, for those are basically the 'comments' I will give for those verses too.

As I have said many times before, the Quran verses are not for the laymen to 'feel' out the interpretation of, but rather they should refer to the experts for their meanings [which will be reffering to a reliable and trustworthy tafsir in this matter].

InshAllah I will post up the tafsir Al-Jalalyan [this is the Tafsir of the two Jalals; Jalal uddin As-Suyuti, and his teacher], under each of the verses below.

002.140PICKTHAL: Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know best, or doth Allah? And who is more unjust than he who hideth a testimony which he hath received from Allah? Allah is not unaware of what ye do.

Or, nay, do you say (taqūlūna, also read yaqūlūna, 'do they say?'): " Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob, and the Tribes - they were Jews, or they were Christians? " Say, to them: 'Have you then greater knowledge, or has God?, that is, God has greater knowledge; He dissociated Abraham from both [groups], when He said, Abraham was not a Jew, nor a Christian [Q. 3:67]; and those mentioned with him [Abraham] are his followers [in not belonging to either group]. And who does greater injustice than he who conceals, hides from people, a testimony, he has, received from God?, that is, there is none more unjust than him: these are the Jews, for they concealed God's testimony about Abraham's pure faith in the Torah; And God is not heedless of what you do': [this is] a threat for them.

004.159PICKTHAL: There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -

And there is not one of the People of the Scripture but will assuredly believe in him, in Jesus, before his death, that is, [before the death] of one belonging to the People of the Scripture upon seeing the angels of death with his very eyes, at which point his faith will not profit him; or [it means] before the death of Jesus, after he descends at the approach of the Hour, as is stated in hadīth; and on the Day of Resurrection he, Jesus, will be a witness against them, of what they did when he was sent to them.

004.160PICKTHAL: Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were (before) made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allah's way,

And because of the evildoing (fa-bi-zulmin is [to be understood as] fa-bi-sababi zulmin, 'and for the reason of the evildoing') of some of those of Jewry, the Jews, We have forbidden them certain good things that were lawful for them, those things [mentioned] where God says [And to those of Jewry] We have forbidden every beast with claws [Q. 6:146]; and because of their barring, of people, from God's way, [from] His religion, many, a time.

004.161PICKTHAL: And of their taking usury when they were forbidden it, and of their devouring people's wealth by false pretences, We have prepared for those of them who disbelieve a painful doom.

And because of their taking usury when they had been forbidden it, in the Torah, and their consuming people's wealth through falsehood, through bribes in adjudications, and We have prepared for the disbelievers among them a painful chastisement.

004.162PICKTHAL: But those of them who are firm in knowledge and the believers believe in that which is revealed unto thee, and that which was revealed before thee, especially the diligent in prayer and those who pay the poor-due, the believers in Allah and the Last Day. Upon these We shall bestow immense reward.

But those of them who are firmly rooted, established, in knowledge, like 'Abd Allāh b. Salām, and the believers, the Emigrants and the Helpers, believing in what has revealed to you, and what was revealed before you, of scriptures, and those who observe the prayer (wa'l-muqīmīna l-salāta is in the accusative because it is a laudative; it is also read in the nominative [wa'l-muqīmūna l-salāta]); and pay the alms, and those who believe in God and the Last Day - to them We shall surely give (nu'tīhim, is also read yu'tīhim, 'He shall surely give') a great wage, namely, Paradise.

[my comments: the above tafsir shows that it is only the Jews who convert to Islam ["believing in what has been revealed to you [Quran] and what was revealed before you [undistorted past scriptures]" will be rewarded with Paradise; I think Abdullah Bin Salaam was a Jew who converted to Islam...]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

4:159 I certainly do not think that I can dispute that faithful Jews believe in G-d, can you?

your 'feelings' and wishfull thinking are getting the better of you sis , please try to stick to the expert interpretations

And regarding those who beleive that there is a God; Just belieivng that there is a God is not enough sis, one has to refrain from shirk, and accept the absolute neccessities of faith [not belieive in anything that constitues kufr] in order to be counted amongst the Mumins [believers]as opposed to the kaafirs [disbeleivers/rejectors of the one and only true faith] and as said before, for those who have not heard about Islam, they have to be conceptual monothiests...]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

In 4:162 is the Quran itself, the unquestionable Word of G-d, not saying here that there are among the Jews those that follow the right path and will receive immense rewards from G-d? None of the translations I can find say "those who WERE firm in knowledge", they all say ARE firm in knowledge, except for Shakir who translates it as simply 'the firm in knowledge'.

the expert interpretation is there for all too see, and they do not accord to your 'feelings' ]

Salaam.

ps: sis, if you are so into 'Quranic verses' for your evidence, then is not the following verse verry clear; to the extent where there is even no need to 'feel things out'?; but ofcourse some common sense will be needed for it's wider implications, so I will quote the verse and then apply some basic common sense to it inshAllah:

2.89: And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them that which they recognized, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on Kafirun.

Now it is verry clear in the above verse that when the Quran, whcih verified the Torah [said in it that indeed the Torah was revealed from God, and it verified what it said about a messenger coming before the end of time], came to the Jews [as it did to all Mankind], they did not accept it as a revelation from God [out of kufr [denial]], thus they disbeleived in Muhammad [saw] regarding the Quran, and it is clear in the verse that for that verry reason [for rejecting Quran, Prophet Muhammad [saw], Islam], Allah cursed them and declared them to be Kaafirs, and before you say, "the word 'kaafirs' has different meanings...", let me show you the follow up verse of that surah:

Evil is that for which they sell their souls, that is, their share of the reward [in the Hereafter] (bi'samā, 'evil is that [for] which': mā here is an indefinite particle, representing 'a thing', and constitutes a specification qualifying the subject of [the verb] bi's, 'evil is', the very thing being singled out for criticism); that they disbelieve in that, Qur'ān, which God has revealed, grudging (baghyan here is an object denoting reason for yakfurū, 'they disbelieve'), that is, out of envy, that God should reveal (read either yunzil or yunazzil) of His bounty, the Inspiration, to whomever He will of His servants, to deliver the Message; and they were laden, they returned, with anger, from God for their disbelief in what He has revealed (the indefinite form, bi-ghadabin, 'with anger', is used to emphasise the awesomeness [of the 'anger']), upon anger, which they deserved formerly, when they neglected the Torah and disbelieved in Jesus; and for the disbelievers there shall be a humiliating chastisement.

The above verse [including it's tafsir] once again affirms the reason why they are kaafirs; i.e, for rejecting the Quran, and it mentions that they will have a humiliating chastisement in the hereafter, thus if we put the curse and humiliating chastisement together, with the fact that God called them kaafirs, it is clear as to to definition of the word kaafir in these verses.

Now for the common sense part sis:

Is it fair for one group of Jews to reject the Quran and be designated as kaafirs with the eternal chastisement that comes along with that title...and another group of Jews can just reject the Quran and not be designated as such? such an unfair and unequall policy can never be attributed to Allah, the Just.

Now if Judaism was still valid, then surely the Jews had a right to reject Islam and continue to submit to Allah as Jews and according to Judaism, and it should be accepted by Allah, but just for rejecting the Quran, these Jews, who used to follow Judaism...were cursed and branded as Kaafirs by God Allimghty Himself and given tidings of the humiliating chastisement in the hereafter...now why should God do that if Judaism was still valid?

So my dear Quranic verse enthusiast sister; if you are indeed into accepting waht God says in the Quran, then will your strong feelings for the Jews, Christians, non-Muslims, etc, lead you to overlook the clear and common sense meanings and implications of that verse?; shouldn't Love for Allah and His Messenger [saw] come before the love for any people?

Salaam.

[Muslimwoman]

Abdullah

If you are not able to see the very obvious addition of personal feelings into the interpretations above then you give a whole new meaning to the term Blind Following.

The following is written by a Palestinian Muslim (there are not many people on earth taught to hate the Jews as much as the palestinians), so this may surprise you (you can check I have not changed it here

my personal Qur'an: 2:89

Saturday, April 30, 2005

2:89



Salaam all,

This is 2:89
وَلَمَّا جَآءَهُمْ كِتَابٌ مِّنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ مُصَدِّقٌ لِّمَا مَعَهُمْ وَكَانُواْ مِن قَبْلُ يَسْتَفْتِحُونَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ فَلَمَّا جَآءَهُمْ مَّا عَرَفُواْ كَفَرُواْ بِهِ فَلَعْنَةُ اللَّهِ عَلَى
الكافِرِينَ
Walamma jaahum kitabunmin AAindi Allahi musaddiqun lima maAAahumwakanoo min qablu yastaftihoona AAala allatheenakafaroo falamma jaahum ma AAarafoo kafaroobihi falaAAnatu Allahi AAala alkafireena

Note:
The AYA says “And when came to the them(Israelites) a Book from the GOD, declaring true what is with them, and they were prevuisly seeking opening (aid) on the ones that disbelieved. So, when came to them what they knew (to be good), they disbelieved in it, So, distancing/expelling of the GOD is on the disbelievers (the ones that cover themselves from GOD’s message)”

My personal note:
The Aya talks about the Israelites and mentions that the book (Qur’an) came declaring true the books that the Israelites have. The AYA alludes to the notion that some of the Israelites were seeking opening (aid) against the disbelievers around them. However, when this message came, and they disbelieved in it, GOD announced that there will be distancing between HIM and the disbelievers.

One note to mention is the fact that the use of the term Kafaroo for the Israelites does not mean all of them, and therefore there is no generalization.



If it wasn't for the fact that I have never believed Jesus (pbuh) was the son of G-d, then you would be enough to make me become a Christian again.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

Now for the common sense part sis:

Is it fair for one group of Jews to reject the Quran and be designated as kaafirs with the eternal chastisement that comes along with that title...and another group of Jews can just reject the Quran and not be designated as such? such an unfair and unequall policy can never be attributed to Allah, the Just.

Personally I leave it to Allah to judge what is in peoples heart and if He knows of a group of Jews that follow the original Torah then I certainly am not going to argue with The One True G-d but if you want to , please be my guest.

Doesn't it ever scare you when you speak for Allah and state His Knowledge and who He will and will not accept?

Originally Posted by Abdullah

So my dear Quranic verse enthusiast sister; if you are indeed into accepting waht God says in the Quran, then will your strong feelings for the Jews, Christians, non-Muslims, etc, lead you to overlook the clear and common sense meanings and implications of that verse?; shouldn't Love for Allah and His Messenger [saw] come before the love for any people?

I have no strong feelings for any group of people, there are good and bad in all societies and only Allah can judge between them - please note I said Allah not Abdullah.

Oh that old chestnut, if you don't agree with me then you don't love G-d, well once again I would suggest you leave it to Allah to decide if I love Him.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

shouldn't Love for Allah and His Messenger [saw] come before the love for any people?

You seem to always miss the point Abdullah. My love and fear of Allah is what stops me from judging people, I have no knowledge or right to say who or who will not be accepted by Allah and unless you are Isa (pbuh) returned to bring The Day of Judgement, then I would suggest you have neither the knowledge or right to do so either.

Would you not feel more at peace with Allah and the world if you spent your time concerning yourself with your own sins, instead of judging the sins of others?

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Abdullah

If you are not able to see the very obvious addition of personal feelings into the interpretations above then you give a whole new meaning to the term Blind Following.

The following is written by a Palestinian Muslim (there are not many people on earth taught to hate the Jews as much as the palestinians), so this may surprise you (you can check I have not changed it here

my personal Qur'an: 2:89

Saturday, April 30, 2005

2:89



Salaam all,

This is 2:89
وَلَمَّا جَآءَهُمْ كِتَابٌ مِّنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ مُصَدِّقٌ لِّمَا مَعَهُمْ وَكَانُواْ مِن قَبْلُ يَسْتَفْتِحُونَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ فَلَمَّا جَآءَهُمْ مَّا عَرَفُواْ كَفَرُواْ بِهِ فَلَعْنَةُ اللَّهِ عَلَى
الكافِرِينَ
Walamma jaahum kitabunmin AAindi Allahi musaddiqun lima maAAahumwakanoo min qablu yastaftihoona AAala allatheenakafaroo falamma jaahum ma AAarafoo kafaroobihi falaAAnatu Allahi AAala alkafireena

Note:
The AYA says “And when came to the them(Israelites) a Book from the GOD, declaring true what is with them, and they were prevuisly seeking opening (aid) on the ones that disbelieved. So, when came to them what they knew (to be good), they disbelieved in it, So, distancing/expelling of the GOD is on the disbelievers (the ones that cover themselves from GOD’s message)”

My personal note:
The Aya talks about the Israelites and mentions that the book (Qur’an) came declaring true the books that the Israelites have. The AYA alludes to the notion that some of the Israelites were seeking opening (aid) against the disbelievers around them. However, when this message came, and they disbelieved in it, GOD announced that there will be distancing between HIM and the disbelievers.

One note to mention is the fact that the use of the term Kafaroo for the Israelites does not mean all of them, and therefore there is no generalization.



If it wasn't for the fact that I have never believed Jesus (pbuh) was the son of G-d, then you would be enough to make me become a Christian again.

Salaam

Salaam sis

I still dont see how that 'personal interpretation' of that person differs from that of Al-Jalalayns; they both mention that the Jews became Kaafirs for rejecting the message of the Quran [So, when came to them what they knew (to be good), they disbelieved in it, So, distancing/expelling of the GOD is on the disbelievers]

And he wouldn't be wrong that the word kaafir does not refer to all Jews, for there are Jews that convert to Islam, thus they are not kaafirs, and according to ashari's, the Jews that havn't heard about Islam are not kaafir either.

Salaam

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Would you not feel more at peace with Allah and the world if you spent your time concerning yourself with your own sins, instead of judging the sins of others?

I'm just answering questions on a discussion board sis...as and when they arise; this is a good way of dawah and also is a responsiblity of the Muslims to answer questions and disseminate the correct views about Islam.

Peace

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

If there was any Jew who followed the original Torah, he would have accepted Jesus [pbuh] as a Messenger and Muhammad [saw] too and thereby converted to a Muslim.

OK, so if i understand you correctly, any jews who didn't accept jesus and then didn't accept muhammad are by definition "not following the original Torah"? so, therefore, logically it is impossible to be a jew unless one is, in fact, a muslim? i'm sure you don't mind me saying, abdullah, that this is complete double-talk. if you mean that there are no "real" jews left any more, because all the "real" jews are by definition muslims and all the "apparent" jews are therefore by definition a bunch of shirky, idolatrous kuffar, then quit tap-dancing around your message. i do not accept that jesus was a) a jewish prophet or b) the messiah. nor do i accept muhammad's prophecy as applicable to jews nor indeed as prophecy according to the halakhic criteria. does that make me a kaafir?

And they wouldn't have regarded the stoning verse to be obsolete.

which verse do you mean? you mean the penalty of stoning? it's not obsolete. it's just been made effectively impossible to secure a conviction where the penalty would be stoning. as you know, we do not consider any of Torah to be obsolete.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

BB did you make the mistake of going to a synagogue to learn about the Torah instead of to a mosque?

apparently.

BB verse 4:47 of the Quran refers to Jews that broke the Sabbath. I understand that the Sabbath is your Holy Day, so is there a recorded time in your history where certain Jews broke the Sabbath and what does it mean to break the Sabbath?

there has never been a time in history where there were no jews who broke it, from the time that the bloke gathered sticks in the desert during the exodus to right now. i grew up breaking the sabbath and i am sure i still do, intentionally and unintentionally from time to time. each instance of breaking the sabbath is, according to the Torah, a stoning offence. eating an insect gets you five sets of 40 lashes. even if i never broke the sabbath again, i have so much punishment stored up that i'm sure i'd never get to the end of it even if i fasted to the end of my life. the Torah is a tough system to follow. however, we believe in repentance and atonement and in Divine Mercy and every day brings an opportunity to act differently.

In verse 4:160 above it refers to making unlawful what was lawful. At what time in the Jewish history did this happen? Sorry, just trying to establish if it was at the giving of the Torah.

well, you see, we'd say that we have never permitted what G!D forbade, nor forbade what G!D permitted. however, what abdullah seems to be saying is that we have done this on an institutional and collective scale. the Qur'an may be referring to the way halakhic interpretation allows certain possibilities (e.g. death by stoning) to be effectively ruled out, but to my way of thinking that's not the same thing as going against the Word of G!D.

we have a talmudic story known as the "oven of achnai" (BT bava metzia 59b) which describes how the principle of authority for human interpretation occurred, over a trivial argument about whether the aforementioned oven was kosher or not. the vote was unanimous save for one rabbi who dissented. the majority quoted the Torah verse that "after the majority shall you incline" to try and get him to concede the point, at one point appealing to a Divine Voice ("bat qol") which supports them. however, the dissenting rabbi refuted them all by appealing to the verse in the Torah which states "it is not in Heaven", (deut. 30:11) which was taken to mean that we can't wait for G!D to provide answers in every situation, but must do our own interpretation in the here and now. it was subsequently reported by another rabbi who had had mystical communication with the prophet elijah (khidr) that G!D had been extremely pleased that "My children have defeated Me" - kind of like when you're pleased when your kid makes a logical argument for the first time in order to get his own way. however the authority for this is couched, it remains pretty clear that no matter how multifarious and intertextual a sacred text like the Torah is, you still need human interpretation in an every-day situation, whether one's own or that of experts and scholars. but for muslims to suggest that the experts and scholars of other faiths are thereby introducing "manmade" laws and causing themselves to be worshipped, whilst of course their own are "rightly-guided" and infallible, stretches credibility to the point where one would surely be forgiven for considering that such a position makes them look like a bunch of hypocritical beardy bigots.

Originally Posted by Abdullah

the Quran verses are not for the laymen to 'feel' out the interpretation of, but rather they should refer to the experts for their meanings [which will be referring to a reliable and trustworthy tafsir in this matter].

the same is true of Torah, abdullah, as i've already point out.

these are the Jews, for they concealed God's testimony about Abraham's pure faith in the Torah; And God is not heedless of what you do': [this is] a threat for them.

you're not kidding, are you? we lied about abraham, did we? deary me. and, what's more, we left the evidence for our own guilt right there in the text! look at deuteronomy 12:32 and 4:2!

on the Day of Resurrection he, Jesus, will be a witness against them, of what they did when he was sent to them.

we're confident that should such a situation arise the blame will be fairly placed on the romans...

[my comments: the above tafsir shows that it is only the Jews who convert to Islam ["believing in what has been revealed to you [Quran] and what was revealed before you [undistorted past scriptures]" will be rewarded with Paradise;

perhaps if muslims could supply these undistorted past scriptures this would look like a bit less of a fit-up.

Now if Judaism was still valid, then surely the Jews had a right to reject Islam and continue to submit to Allah as Jews and according to Judaism, and it should be accepted by Allah, but just for rejecting the Quran, these Jews, who used to follow Judaism...were cursed and branded as Kaafirs by God Allimghty Himself and given tidings of the humiliating chastisement in the hereafter...now why should God do that if Judaism was still valid?

because G!D said in the Torah that the covenant with jacob and the covenant with moses would endure to the "thousandth generation" (deut. 7:9, 11-12) - read the laws of sacrifice in leviticus (look at 16:29-34 and 26:23 for a start) and count the number of times G!D said "it shall be a Law for you forever"! now, unless there's some meaning of the hebrew phrase le'olam wa-'edh that i'm not aware of, forever means forever, whatever some nitwit propagandist thinks.

your 'feelings' and wishfull thinking are getting the better of you sis, please try to stick to the expert interpretations

ok, abdullah, you're now crossing the line into rudeness. you are of course at liberty to believe what you like but personally i wonder what the hell you think you're doing on an interfaith dialogue board. if i were muslimwoman i'd be telling you to stick it where the sun doesn't shine right about now. i am sure that muhammad was never smug nor patronising.

will your strong feelings for the Jews, Christians, non-Muslims, etc, lead you to overlook the clear and common sense meanings and implications of that verse?; shouldn't Love for Allah and His Messenger [saw] come before the love for any people?

yeah, MW, listen to abdullah, because there is no compulsion in religion.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

OK, so if i understand you correctly, any jews who didn't accept jesus and then didn't accept muhammad are by definition "not following the original Torah"? so, therefore, logically it is impossible to be a jew unless one is, in fact, a muslim?

'Jew' is a tribe, according to Islam, and not a religion. The religion taught by all Prophets was allways Islam, and the followers of those religions were and are Muslims. There were some changes in the guidance of the religion [but never in the essential theological beliefs...] with the advent of new Messengers, but the religion was allways one; Islam.

The original Torah had in it the news of the coming of the Prophet Jesus and Muhammad [saw], so for the followers of Moses to accept Jesus [pbuh] would have only been a part of The Torahs guidance, and it would be only natural for the tribe of Judah? [Jews] and the followers of Christ to accept the final Messenger Muhammad [saw] too, for it is part of the former Shariahs [versions of Islam revealed to Moses and Jesus pbut] to accept any new Messenger and revelation God send to them, therefore, to reject the latest revelations and Messengers from God is kufr, that expels a beleiver from the fold of the truth.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i'm sure you don't mind me saying, abdullah, that this is complete double-talk. if you mean that there are no "real" jews left any more, because all the "real" jews are by definition muslims...

There are indeed Jews left, for they are the tribe that are called Jews, but the only true followers of Moses [pbuh], are the Muslims, for it is part of moses religion [and the religion of all other prophets] to accept the latest Messenger and revelation; that is why Muslims are considered to be the followers of all the Prophets.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

we're confident that should such a situation arise the blame will be fairly placed on the romans...

although jesus came with clear signs from Allah?; I dont thnik the argument that, "Oh Allah, we weren't convinced Jesus was a Prophet, although he was Prophecised in our Torah and he performed miracles like raising the dead, and he was affirmed in Your Last revelation, becasue the romans convinced us that he weren't??? , will go down well with Allah, do you?

Originally Posted by bananabrain

perhaps if muslims could supply these undistorted past scriptures this would look like a bit less of a fit-up.

Well here is a list of the contradictions in the Torah...:

101 Contradictions Old Testament

An undistorted revelation form Allah will be free of contradictions and incongruities.

Peace.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

And he wouldn't be wrong that the word kaafir does not refer to all Jews, for there are Jews that convert to Islam, thus they are not kaafirs, and according to ashari's, the Jews that havn't heard about Islam are not kaafir either.

If I convert to Judaism tomorrow, then I am a Jew not a Muslim. So any Jew that converts to Islam is a Muslim, not a Jew. So the references to Jews cannot be about Jews that convert to Islam or it would say Muslim converts or Muslim believers.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

'Jew' is a tribe, according to Islam, and not a religion. The religion taught by all Prophets was allways Islam, and the followers of those religions were and are Muslims.....although jesus came with clear signs from Allah?....Well here is a list of the contradictions in the Torah...:An undistorted revelation form Allah will be free of contradictions and incongruities.

Namaste Abdullah,

As the meaning of the religion is submission to G!d I'd say you may have something as Jews and Christians believe in submission to G!d albeit differently than Muslims. I do find it interesting in the beginning of your post you insist Jews are Muslims and by the end deny their text. I also find it interesting that I've heard Muslims refer to Jews and Christians alternately as people of the Book, and honored for that and then looked on with disdain as they don't follow the Quran.

Numerous areas on this board BB has described in detail why Jews do not believe Jesus to be the Messiah nor having fulfilled the prophecy, that is a decidedly Christian view.

And yes you are correct one can easily search the net for page after page of contradictions in the Old Testament, or New Testament, and I think these are great for folks of their respective religion to review, contemplate
and meditate on so as they will develop an answer to each and everyone, many of which are quite easy to explain and many of which are specious, some however take some undertaking to understand and have been debated for centuries.

Of course if one were to google contradictions in the Koran one would have similar results and hours of exploration to do...there are only 213,000 hits...

We are one my brother.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

there has never been a time in history where there were no jews who broke it, from the time that the bloke gathered sticks in the desert during the exodus to right now. i grew up breaking the sabbath and i am sure i still do, intentionally and unintentionally from time to time. each instance of breaking the sabbath is, according to the Torah, a stoning offence. eating an insect gets you five sets of 40 lashes.

So breaking the Sabbath would be like me eating or drinking during a fast? Glad you pointed out the lashes I was just about to pop a bug in my mouth.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

well, you see, we'd say that we have never permitted what G!D forbade, nor forbade what G!D permitted.

My sincere apologies BB, I think that is one of those myths I have heard but of course I should have phrased it as a question, not a statement. The myth I was thinking of is that the Jewish oral tradition existed long before the Torah but because the Jews didn't hold to the covenant with G-d, the Torah was sent which included a number of new 'commandments'. So feel free to shoot me down in flames on that one.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

however, what abdullah seems to be saying is that we have done this on an institutional and collective scale. the Qur'an may be referring to the way halakhic interpretation allows certain possibilities (e.g. death by stoning) to be effectively ruled out, but to my way of thinking that's not the same thing as going against the Word of G!D.

Unfortuantely Muslims often hold this view but I am delighted to say not all, including born Muslims. Many accept that as the Quran talks to Muslims in given times and at given places, it also refers to Jews and Christians in the same way.

All scriptures must be interpreted by man and we are fallable. Look at our stoning verse - oops sorry you can't we don't have one, yet we keep stoning people. An example would be slavery and sex with slaves. Can you believe in 2007 some scholars still state it is ok to own slaves and have sex with them - where did they get these slaves from, did I miss the war? Many other scholars point to the number of times in the Quran and Sunnah that we are told to release slaves and of course over time there would be no slaves to release. These scholars do not try to forbid the owning of slaves because there may come a time of war where these verses and hadiths would be relevant but we are not in that state now, so we do not meet the criteria for owning slaves at this time.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

whether one's own or that of experts and scholars. but for muslims to suggest that the experts and scholars of other faiths are thereby introducing "manmade" laws

Exactly the same accusation can be levelled at the Muslims. I assume you have heard of fatwas, these are scholars opinions that we are not obliged to follow but morally should follow, as the scholars know our faith better than we do. We have fatwas that deal with issues never heard of in the Quran or Sunnah, so this is man made.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

ok, abdullah, you're now crossing the line into rudeness. you are of course at liberty to believe what you like but personally i wonder what the hell you think you're doing on an interfaith dialogue board. if i were muslimwoman i'd be telling you to stick it where the sun doesn't shine right about now. i am sure that muhammad was never smug nor patronising.

No, when he said on another thread I have an IQ less than a 5 year old and suggested I was mentally ill, that was rude. I am getting used to his personal insults but we are told to have patience.

Abdullah and I are simply extremes of the same faith, as all faiths have extreme views. I am on an interfaith board to try to show that Islam is not a faith of hatred and Abdullah is here to make dawah (earn good deeds by spreading Islam, to earn good deeds you have to spread the true Islam, he believes his version is true and I believe mine is - Allah will judge us both). I refuse to judge people or their sins, I am myself a sinner so how can I judge anyone else's sins? Abdullah believes in blind following and I am a questioner. I do not know which of us is right, if either of us are but only G-d will judge us on the final day.

Salaam
MW

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

Well here is a list of the contradictions in the Torah...:

101 Contradictions Old Testament

An undistorted revelation form Allah will be free of contradictions and incongruities.

Peace.

Perhaps you should not believe everything you read on the net:

105 contradictions of the Quran

Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an

There are only 7 on here but they are quite well thought out

Contradictions in the Qur'an, Koran

This is from answering christinity and is a rebuttal to a post about contradictions in the Quran:

There are no contradictions in the Quran. I really hope that people out there would be objective and search for the truth and if they think that there are contradictions in the Quran then they should go and search for the rebuttal to it. Then they judge for themselves.


Perhaps you should take this to heart Abdullah and treat others and their faith as you would have them treat you and your faith, with respect. I feel sure that as we rebutt the 'contradictions' in the Quran comments, that the Jewish people would do the same with the 'contradictions' in the Torah. How is it that others think they can find contradictions in the Quran, yet we know there are none, yet you happily state 'these are the contradictions in the Torah'? Try to have a little respect.