Quote from Bahaullah - Page 4

Sean H. · 06-23-2007, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

What also disturbs me is "If a man were falsely condemned to die, can we not believe Almighty God would compensate him a thousandfold, in the next world, for this human injustice?"

In England where I live capital punishment is illegal, I have grown up to believe the American penal system is wrong. It goes to show for me that a society can take a different approach to criminals and that prescribing death or burning even as an option is wrong. The time Bahaullah wrote it, it might have been valid but I will use the progressive truth card against Bahaullah on this issue. Also to me it shows people do not need guidance on this issue. As we know the Koran is full with social laws and punishments, whereas the bible isn't.

Hmm. The way I look at it, it seems to me that Baha'u'llah is saying that we can't not punish people just because in rare cases innocent people get punished. To me, it doesn't matter whether the innocent person endures life imprisonment or the death penalty because in both cases they're innocent and God will compensate them.

arthra · 06-24-2007, 05:39 PM

I'd like also to respond to the following by Postmaster:

In England where I live capital punishment is illegal, I have grown up to believe the American penal system is wrong.

My reply:

I think you are making this discussion now about capital punishment... Baha'is are not necessarily for the American system of capital punishment.

For one thing, studies have shown that most who are executed are among minorities heavily black or hispanic people and are poorer by and large so many did not have means to hire proper defense... such a system would not be accepted in a future Baha'i society. So I think you are making too many assumptions about Baha'i laws in the future!

For another you seem to be suggesting that the British system of justice is superior... Well I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you... Any social system will have some flaws and problems in implementing, before you suggest a future Baha'i system of justice is flawed ...consider this!

It goes to show for me that a society can take a different approach to criminals and that prescribing death or burning even as an option is wrong.

If you read the excerpts from the Baha'i Writings I posted earlier you would understand that Baha'i view toward criminality is progressive...that we have to build a society and system that is preventative and just so that crime can be reduced. Baha'i law does not say only capital punishment or burning is the only option. Please understand this!

The time Bahaullah wrote it, it might have been valid but I will use the progressive truth card against Bahaullah on this issue.

No. I think you are not listening or understanding here. There are mitigating provisions in Baha'i law revealed by Baha'u'llah. Life imprisonment is also provided for as an alternative to capital punishment. The Universal House of Justice will provide the details for Baha'i law to be implimented in Baha'i societies. It is unfair for you to set yourself up as a judge of a system that has not yet even been established as yet!

Also to me it shows people do not need guidance on this issue. As we know the Koran is full with social laws and punishments, whereas the bible isn't.

Actually you should read the Book of Deuteronomy before you suggest that the Bible does not have social laws and punishments!

smkolins · 06-24-2007, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean H.

Hmm. The way I look at it, it seems to me that Baha'u'llah is saying that we can't not punish people just because in rare cases innocent people get punished. To me, it doesn't matter whether the innocent person endures life imprisonment or the death penalty because in both cases they're innocent and God will compensate them.

First let me site a comparable example - where Baha'u'llah also says He will be an agent to compensate someone killed unjustly - "I Myself shall atone for the loss of her son - a son who now dwelleth within the tabernacle of My majesty and glory, and whose face beameth with a light that envelopeth with its radiance the Maids of Heaven in their celestial chambers, and beyond them the inmates of My Paradise, and the denizens of the Cities of Holiness. Were any eye to gaze on his face, he would exclaim: "Lo, this is no other than a noble angel!""

But "it doesn't matter" is a bit over simplified - even callous. If a system or person were to have a weakness, or even a habit, which tended to put innocent people to death surely it would be tyrannical and numerous Baha'i Writings would then apply - both from the perspective of this world and the next. For example, from those in this world....

Note "The foundation of the Kingdom of God is laid upon justice, fairness, mercy, sympathy and kindness to every soul. Then strive ye with heart and soul to practice love and kindness to the world of humanity at large, except to those souls who are selfish and insincere. It is not advisable to show kindness to a person who is a tyrant, a traitor or a thief because kindness encourages him to become worse and does not awaken him. The more kindness you show to a liar the more he is apt to lie, for he thinks that you know not, while you do know, but extreme kindness keeps you from revealing your knowledge."

So people in this world would be bound to adjust the behavior of this tyrannical system. We have to do our best and if we do it wrong we ourselves are bound to fix it. But it goes further, from the next world justice is waiting for the tyrant too -

"O OPPRESSORS ON EARTH! Withdraw your hands from tyranny, for I have pledged Myself not to forgive any man’s injustice. This is My covenant which I have irrevocably decreed in the preserved tablet and sealed with My seal."

So passing from this world we ourselves are held accountable for our tyrannies.

Popeyesays · 06-24-2007, 10:45 PM

In the TaNakh there are 613 commandments. Most of those are in Deuteronomy.

Now some of those laws are binding ONLY on the priesthood which no longer exists. Some of them are binding only upon men, some of them are binding only upon women.

So Judaism is full of social law, but by and large no one is enforcing those laws today--not in a societal sense.

There are a few laws in the New Testament, but there is no ecclesiastical authority today which can make those laws binding upon anyone without the cooperation of the government.

In today's world governments enforce law, not religion.

Baha`u'llah proposes the correct approach to law and enforcement in His writings. When the day comes that those laws can be enforced by society, it will be up to the supreme international court established--The Universal House of Justice--to put thos commandments into enforcable law.

There's not much point in postulating on what that new society will be like, we frankly donot know what it will be like, we are discovering it from moment to moment.

AWe have reason to trust that it will be done justly, kindly, compassionately, fairly and sympathetically to every person on the planet. Will there be kinks in the process of establishing such a system of law? Undoubtedly. God trusts us to put it to rights, He does not demand we do it all at once.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays · 06-24-2007, 10:46 PM

In the TaNakh there are 613 commandments. Most of those are in Deuteronomy.

Now some of those laws are binding ONLY on the priesthood which no longer exists. Some of them are binding only upon men, some of them are binding only upon women.

So Judaism is full of social law, but by and large no one is enforcing those laws today--not in a societal sense.

There are a few laws in the New Testament, but there is no ecclesiastical authority today which can make those laws binding upon anyone without the cooperation of the government.

In today's world governments enforce law, not religion.

Baha`u'llah proposes the correct approach to law and enforcement in His writings. When the day comes that those laws can be enforced by society, it will be up to the supreme international court established--The Universal House of Justice--to put thos commandments into enforcable law.

There's not much point in postulating on what that new society will be like, we frankly donot know what it will be like, we are discovering it from moment to moment.

AWe have reason to trust that it will be done justly, kindly, compassionately, fairly and sympathetically to every person on the planet. Will there be kinks in the process of establishing such a system of law? Undoubtedly. God trusts us to put it to rights, He does not demand we do it all at once.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays · 06-24-2007, 10:57 PM

In the TaNakh there are 613 commandments. Most of those are in Deuteronomy.

Now some of those laws are binding ONLY on the priesthood which no longer exists. Some of them are binding only upon men, some of them are binding only upon women.

So Judaism is full of social law, but by and large no one is enforcing those laws today--not in a societal sense.

There are a few laws in the New Testament, but there is no ecclesiastical authority today which can make those laws binding upon anyone without the cooperation of the government.

In today's world governments enforce law, not religion.

Baha`u'llah proposes the correct approach to law and enforcement in His writings. When the day comes that those laws can be enforced by society, it will be up to the supreme international court established--The Universal House of Justice--to put thos commandments into enforcable law.

There's not much point in postulating on what that new society will be like, we frankly donot know what it will be like, we are discovering it from moment to moment.

AWe have reason to trust that it will be done justly, kindly, compassionately, fairly and sympathetically to every person on the planet. Will there be kinks in the process of establishing such a system of law? Undoubtedly. God trusts us to put it to rights, He does not demand we do it all at once.

Regards,
Scott

Sean H. · 07-01-2007, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smkolins

First let me site a comparable example - where Baha'u'llah also says He will be an agent to compensate someone killed unjustly - "I Myself shall atone for the loss of her son - a son who now dwelleth within the tabernacle of My majesty and glory, and whose face beameth with a light that envelopeth with its radiance the Maids of Heaven in their celestial chambers, and beyond them the inmates of My Paradise, and the denizens of the Cities of Holiness. Were any eye to gaze on his face, he would exclaim: "Lo, this is no other than a noble angel!""

But "it doesn't matter" is a bit over simplified - even callous. If a system or person were to have a weakness, or even a habit, which tended to put innocent people to death surely it would be tyrannical and numerous Baha'i Writings would then apply - both from the perspective of this world and the next. For example, from those in this world....

Note "The foundation of the Kingdom of God is laid upon justice, fairness, mercy, sympathy and kindness to every soul. Then strive ye with heart and soul to practice love and kindness to the world of humanity at large, except to those souls who are selfish and insincere. It is not advisable to show kindness to a person who is a tyrant, a traitor or a thief because kindness encourages him to become worse and does not awaken him. The more kindness you show to a liar the more he is apt to lie, for he thinks that you know not, while you do know, but extreme kindness keeps you from revealing your knowledge."

So people in this world would be bound to adjust the behavior of this tyrannical system. We have to do our best and if we do it wrong we ourselves are bound to fix it. But it goes further, from the next world justice is waiting for the tyrant too -

"O OPPRESSORS ON EARTH! Withdraw your hands from tyranny, for I have pledged Myself not to forgive any man’s injustice. This is My covenant which I have irrevocably decreed in the preserved tablet and sealed with My seal."

So passing from this world we ourselves are held accountable for our tyrannies.

I think you make a very interesting point smkolins. Thank you very much. I have read what you said and I agree that if a system tended to put innocent people to death or which favored certain people to death over others that that would not be good.

I suppose that I think of this quote from Baha'u'llah

"Tell him, no one in this world can claim any relationship to Me except those who, in all their deeds and in their conduct, follow My example, in such wise that all the peoples of the earth would be powerless to prevent them from doing and saying that which is meet and seemly... This brother of Mine, this Mirza Musa, who is from the same mother and father as Myself, and who from his earliest childhood has kept Me company, should he perpetrate an act contrary to the interests of either the state or religion, and his guilt be established in your sight, I would be pleased and appreciate your action were you to bind his hands and cast him into the river to drown, and refuse to consider the intercession of any one on his behalf." (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 133)

I like this quote, and it's found on the Wikipedia page for Mirza Musa as well. Mirza Musa

I suppose some people might think that it's impossible to have a just system in which the Death Penalty exists. From Baha'u'llah's words, it seems possible in my opinion that it is. Perhaps I am misinterpreting or there are other factors to consider, I am not sure.

I welcome all thoughts.

BruceDLimber · 07-03-2007, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean H.

I suppose some people might think that it's impossible to have a just system in which the Death Penalty exists. From Baha'u'llah's words, it seems possible in my opinion that it is. Perhaps I am misinterpreting or there are other factors to consider, I am not sure.

Hi, Sean!

Here's yet another aspect to consider:

As to capital punishment, it should be noted that there are more nuances to it than most people realize!I think this passage from the Baha'i scriptures is noteworthy:152. “As to the question regarding the soul of a murderer, and what his punishment would be, the answer given was that the murderer must expiate his crime: that is, if they put the murderer to death, his death is his atonement for his crime, and following the death, God in His justice will impose no second penalty upon him, for divine justice would not allow this.”(Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, page 179)Please note that according to the above:

One needs to consider very carefully whether one wants to punish the offender personally or prefers that God punish him because (as the passage makes clear) you can't have it both ways!
And it may in fact be to the criminal's advantage to request capital punishment in order to have a "clean slate" (and presumably a far more positive existence) in the Next Life! The more so given that the Baha'i Writings elsewhere say "Terrible indeed is God in punishing!"

Food for thought, I suggest. . . .Peace,Bruce

arthra · 07-13-2007, 06:51 PM

… Praise be to God that thou hast attained!… Thou hast come to see a prisoner and an exile…. We desire but the good of the world and happiness of the nations; yet they deem us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…. That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this?… Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the “Most Great Peace” shall come…. Do not you in Europe need this also? Is not this that which Christ foretold?… Yet do we see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind…. These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family…. Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind….

(Words spoken to E. G. Browne, from his pen portrait of Bahá’u’lláh, J. E. Esslemont, “Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era”, 5th rev. ed. (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 1987), pp. 39–40) [17]