Quote from Bahaullah

[Postmaster]

The Baha'i awareness site points out to the exact location in the writings you can find contradiction between father and son. In fact even Bahaullah contradicting himself. The Bible for instance under went a lot of rigorous effort to remove contradiction from it, yet it still contains them. Contradiction is something all religious works have been prone to. The difference with the Baha'i faith is its theology is self sustaining to allow them compared to the other religions. I think the Baha'i awareness site is a great point of view, regardless if it’s a narrow view and that I've spotted clear misinformation for myself. Out of all fairness any Baha'i that will defend the non existence of contradiction in the scriptures is a fundamentalist.

[arthra]

Postmaster,

I'm unsure what it is you wanted to discuss.. You started the thread about a law of the Aqdas that disturbed you... now..we're taliking about so called "contradictions". Can you be more specific?

- Art

[Popeyesays]

The baha`i Awareness site dot com is not an authority on anything, its only purpose is to invent arguments against the faith.

I don't go there anymore because it is so blatantly hostile. I simply don't trust anything said there not to have an agenda.

The author was even using what was said here to fabricate more argument and put it up where that argument cannot be anything but one-sided.

Where exactly do Abdu'l Baha and Baha`u'llah disagree?

Regards,
Scott

[arthra]

What Scott wrote is basically correct... If you study a religion you should go to the original sources rather than allow those who are antagonistic to shape your view.

Also I think Postmaster you should be more specific about what you consider to be "contradictions"...

If we take the simple law revealed in the Aqdas above ... Abdul-Baha does not contradict it.

The next verse of the Aqdas allows for "life imprisonment":

Should ye condemn the arsonist and the murderer to life imprisonment, it would be permissible according to the provisions of the Book. ¶62 Shoghi Effendi, in response to a question about this verse of the Aqdas, affirmed that while capital punishment is permitted, an alternative, "life imprisonment", has been provided "whereby the rigours of such a condemnation can be seriously mitigated". He states that "Bahá'u'lláh has given us a choice and has, therefore, left us free to use our own discretion within certain limitations imposed by His law". In the absence of specific guidance concerning the application of this aspect of Bahá'í law, it remains for the Universal House of Justice to legislate on the matter in the future.

...............................................

and again these laws are for a future Baha'i society.

- Art

[Postmaster]

I know that the objective of Baha'i awareness is to form a narrow view of the faith.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I know that the objective of Baha'i awareness is to form a narrow view of the faith.

It is indeed, that's why I have no interest in the site or its author. He's been here you know, and he was using Baha`i posts to hone his arguments against the faith, not in a legitimate way, but merely to post lies upon lies, upon misconceptions to polish his own ego.

Regards,
Scott

[Postmaster]

But regarding this in mind I still think he provides some accurate information.

He leaves reference to contradicitions

The Bahai Awareness Homepage, Bahaullah, Bab, Shoghi, Effendi, Haifa, Acca, Abdul Baha, Islam

The development of the Baha'i faith to me is theologically plausible, in much the same way as Christianity developed there were beta versions of the Baha'i faith i.e. Manichaeism, Freemasons and Sufi and Christianity had it's fair share. To me it's a pattern that shows divine thought unfolding but what I don't really accpet is a fabrication of how religions develope.

[BruceDLimber]

Hello, Peter!

Originally Posted by Postmaster

There are contradictions between what Abdul-Baha said and Bahaullah on some things....

I believe you're mistaken about this. If you think there are such, kindly state what/where so we can discuss this.

Nor am I the least interested in the site you named: not only is it run by an enemy of the Faith whose track record is hardly one of being accurate and reliable (save in a negative sense).

Peace,

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again.

As to capital punishment, it should be noted that there are more nuances to it than most people realize!

In particular, this passage from the Baha'i scriptures is noteworthy:

152. “As to the question regarding the soul of a murderer, and what his punishment would be, the answer given was that the murderer must expiate his crime: that is, if they put the murderer to death, his death is his atonement for his crime, and following the death, God in His justice will impose no second penalty upon him, for divine justice would not allow this.”

(Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, page 179)

Please note that according to the above:

1. One needs to consider very carefully whether one wants to punish the offender personally or prefers that God punish him because (as the passage makes clear) you can't have it both ways!
2. And it may in fact be to the criminal's advantage to request capital punishment in order to have a "clean slate" (and presumably a far more positive existence) in the Next Life!

Food for thought, I suggest. . . .

Peace,

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

... there were beta versions of the Baha'i faith i.e. Manichaeism, Freemasons and Sufi and Christianity had it's fair share.

On the contrary, the faiths above had nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith (save that Christianity, alone among those on your list, was one of the precursors of the Faith).

Prophecies aside, there is no direct connection between them!

Peace,

Bruce

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

But regarding this in mind I still think he provides some accurate information.

He leaves reference to contradicitions

The Bahai Awareness Homepage, Bahaullah, Bab, Shoghi, Effendi, Haifa, Acca, Abdul Baha, Islam

The development of the Baha'i faith to me is theologically plausible, in much the same way as Christianity developed there were beta versions of the Baha'i faith i.e. Manichaeism, Freemasons and Sufi and Christianity had it's fair share. To me it's a pattern that shows divine thought unfolding but what I don't really accpet is a fabrication of how religions develope.

No accurate information to be had, no more so than the NSDAP newspapers reporting world events in 1944.

One cannot prove or disprove anything if one reasons from the conclusion one desires to reach.

Regards,
Scott

[Postmaster]

Well fair enough

[arthra]

It's best thing to do Postmaster is to do your own research and not depend on slanted biased sites.... It's patently irresponsible I would suggest to post a reference to a site that you cannot vouch for.

One of things that is manipulated is contrasting the laws of the Bab Whose dispensation lasted only a few years 1844-1863 with those of Baha'u'llah and any Baha'i will tell you that the reason for this is that Baha'i Faith is a NEW dispensation and that most of the laws of Bayan (revealed bythe Bab) were abrogated by Baha'u'llah.

Attacks against our faith are not that unusual especially on the internet from a few parties but what you will not see are Baha'is attacking other faiths...now this should I think suggest something.. and Abdul-Baha suggested this, if a tree has desirable fruit the children will throw stones at it to get the fruit, otherwise they will leave it alone.

- Art

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

...but you should never take it upon yourself to retaliate also working towards forgiving and helping a person who commits such an evil act should be promoted.

I've read through the thread and hadn't seen any comment about the angle on this comment - the law of the Baha'i Faith is not to be implemented by individuals. This isn't about revenge. Such laws would be administered through institutions. Individuals are in fact to be as forgiving as you hint - there are many statements about how forgiving individuals are supposed to be - but also to note that society cannot run on the forgiveness of individuals. There must also be justice.

Here's a quote about the depth of forgiveness we are to pursue:

"You must manifest complete love and affection toward all mankind. Do not exalt yourselves above others, but consider all as your equals, recognizing them as the servants of one God. Know that God is compassionate toward all; therefore, love all from the depths of your hearts, prefer all religionists before yourselves, be filled with love for every race, and be kind toward the people of all nationalities. Never speak disparagingly of others, but praise without distinction. Pollute not your tongues by speaking evil of another. Recognize your enemies as friends, and consider those who wish you evil as the wishers of good. You must not see evil as evil and then compromise with your opinion, for to treat in a smooth, kindly way one whom you consider evil or an enemy is hypocrisy, and this is not worthy or allowable. You must consider your enemies as your friends, look upon your evil-wishers as your well-wishers and treat them accordingly. Act in such a way that your heart may be free from hatred. Let not your heart be offended with anyone. If some one commits an error and wrong toward you, you must instantly forgive him. Do not complain of others. Refrain from reprimanding them, and if you wish to give admonition or advice, let it be offered in such a way that it will not burden the bearer. Turn all your thoughts toward bringing joy to hearts. Beware! Beware! lest ye offend any heart. Assist the world of humanity as much as possible. Be the source of consolation to every sad one, assist every weak one, be helpful to every indigent one, care for every sick one, be the cause of glorification to every lowly one, and shelter those who are overshadowed by fear.

In brief, let each one of you be as a lamp shining forth with the light of the virtues of the world of humanity. Be trustworthy, sincere, affectionate and replete with chastity. Be illumined, be spiritual, be divine, be glorious, be quickened of God, be a Bahá’í."

But there is the whole question of tolerance... and justice.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by smkolins

But there is the whole question of tolerance... and justice.

For example from the Justice link .... "It is not advisable to show kindness to a person who is a tyrant, a traitor or a thief because kindness encourages him to become worse and does not awaken him. The more kindness you show to a liar the more he is apt to lie, for he thinks that you know not, while you do know, but extreme kindness keeps you from revealing your knowledge."

Elsewhere it is said:"Let us also bear in mind that the keynote of the Cause of God is not dictatorial authority but humble fellowship, not arbitrary power, but the spirit of frank and loving consultation. Nothing short of the spirit of a true Bahá'í can hope to reconcile the principles of mercy and justice, of freedom and submission, of the sanctity of the right of the individual and of self-surrender, of vigilance, discretion, and prudence on the one hand, and fellowship, candour, and courage on the other."