Question Regarding Deuteronomy...

[The NeoSentient]

Assalam Alaikum/Shalom.

This is my first post here...so...hello

I do not want to come to start a debate (Islam teaches us not to start debates with the Ahl Al-Kitaab [people of the book]) but rather just have some discussion about some of the passages within Deuteronomy.


I understand that Jews do not accept Muhammad, but there seems to be quite a few lines regarding "a prophet"


One example is is 18:15 and 18:18:

The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Now consider the parts in red. God specifically indicates he "Shall raise a prophet" from the midst of "thee" from a brethren which will be similiar "like unto me". Muhammad (saw) is sometimes refered to as a Prophet of mercy. God is also as we know, merciful. To "Hearken" (to hear/listen to attentively) is also mentioned in the Hadiths (narrations) of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) as there was Jews in Madinah and Muhammad (saw) did dialogue with the Jews alot.

Another quote is:

18: I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

The word before "Brethren" is "their". The use of "their" indicates to a group of people and in this case, it is the Hebrews. Brethren is literally a plural of brother. The ONLY people I can think of who are brothers of the Jews are Arabs. The fact that it also says God will put words into "his mouth" can only indicate to Muhammad (saw). All signs point to him. Also - Muhammad (saw) was also closest to Musa/Moshe (saw) in terms of biographical features. Both had usual births, was married with children, was forced to emigrate at one point in their lives, both had endured war and both were rejected then accepted. Who else can you name who is most like Musa/Moshe (saw) then Muhammad (saw).



It would be nice to hear some views upon my belief from the Ahl Al-Kitaab (people of the book ie you ) and to listen to opinions. Thank you


As Salamu Alaikum Wa Rah Matullah Wa Barakatuh.

Shalom.

[dauer]

Hi! Welcome to the board! Let me take a look at those passages...

"15. A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you you shall hearken to him."

The wonderful thing about Torah is we can read it in so many ways. So let's see... "A prophet", not "a certain prophet" so it's not being specific. These are general terms. "from among you, from among your brothers", he's not talking to the nation of the Hebrews. He's talkin' to the people, man. I saw this beautiful dramatization, this guy read one of the gospels, and that concept seems to make sense here. Moses is adding a little flair. But maybe not! Maybe within the people we have two groups, because we also have the gerim, who are among the people. So it must be stated that they are brothers. Whichever way works best for you, or maybe another.

"like me", like moses. Joshua was also like Moses.

"hearken" as with all prophets, the people are commanded to do thus.

I think that addresses everything in the second one as well.

Dauer

[The NeoSentient]

Originally Posted by dauer

Hi! Welcome to the board! Let me take a look at those passages...

"15. A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you you shall hearken to him."

The wonderful thing about Torah is we can read it in so many ways. So let's see... "A prophet", not "a certain prophet" so it's not being specific. These are general terms. "from among you, from among your brothers", he's not talking to the nation of the Hebrews. He's talkin' to the people, man. I saw this beautiful dramatization, this guy read one of the gospels, and that concept seems to make sense here. Moses is adding a little flair. But maybe not! Maybe within the people we have two groups, because we also have the gerim, who are among the people. So it must be stated that they are brothers. Whichever way works best for you, or maybe another.

"like me", like moses. Joshua was also like Moses.

"hearken" as with all prophets, the people are commanded to do thus.

I think that addresses everything in the second one as well.

Dauer

Unfortunetly, I don't speak Hebrew nor Arabic If you do, could you translate the keywords from the hebrew into a more "descriptive" meaning derived from the Hebrew? That would be most helpful. I am also aware that the verses in the Torah can be seen in differant lights.

Also - you mentioned :

"A prophet", not "a certain prophet" so it's not being specific. These are general terms. "from among you, from among your brothers"

Correct me if I am wrong. I'm under the impression that the Talmud/Torah law states certain criteria for "Hebrew" prophets, not that of foreigners. In your personal opinion - BTW - Even though Muhammad (saw) abolished quite alot of the Judaic laws (kosher, apart from pork, Sabbath) Muhammad (saw) came to bring nothing new, only to reestablish the religion of Abraham/Ibrahim (saw) that of pure monotheism. In your personal opinion, who do you think it is talking about it?

Salam.

[dauer]

"Unfortunetly, I don't speak Hebrew nor Arabic If you do, could you translate the keywords from the hebrew into a more "descriptive" meaning derived from the Hebrew? That would be most helpful. I am also aware that the verses in the Torah can be seen in differant lights."

I only know a little Hebrew. I was simply drawing different conclusions based on the text to show that it doesn't clearly point to Muhammad. Every now and again we get a proselytizer. Sometimes it's a Christian, sometimes a Muslim, so whenever anyone comes to discuss a text that has been used for proselytization I make it clear I ain't buying. And I'm not implying those are your intentions. Just explaining mine.

"Correct me if I am wrong. I'm under the impression that the Talmud/Torah law states certain criteria for "Hebrew" prophets, not that of foreigners."

The Talmud came later. The Torah is an earlier text. Moses, in the biblical narrative, is addressing the people, among whom there are strangers. So he needs to make clear that prophets don't come from strangers according to that particular drash. And this works very well with Joshua, which is what I think the narrative is leading into. If you read all of Joshua's stuff, he's almost like a continuation of Moses. I think that's probably what the redactors had in mind, or the authors, whoever put that spin on it.

I should make clear that I don't believe in prophecy, or the divine origin of sacred texts, so you may be asking the wrong person. If you want to really play with the nature of prophecy and a prophet and what a sacred text is and what it means for a text to be of divine origin, then maybe I do. But not in the way that I could honestly answer the questions you're asking me at that level.

Shalom.

Dauer

[bananabrain]

The fact that it also says G!D will put words into "his mouth" can only indicate to Muhammad (saw). All signs point to him.

with all due respect, that's what some christians say about jesus.

i can only repeat what dauer has said - laws of prophecy in the Torah relate only to *jewish* prophets. in fact, the word used is "NaVI", whereas muhammad is referred to in arabic as "rasool" - which is a different word entirely, as far as i am aware.

you should be aware, however, that jews regard our own scriptures as *self-contained*. we do not acknowledge a need for subsequent revelations or prophecy to the wider world. of course, if other people have their own relationship with G!D, well and good - but there's no point looking to us to legitimise or foreshadow christianity, islam or, for that matter, socialism; the authenticity of other traditions is not our concern - they should be able to stand on their own without our support.

Muhammad (saw) came to bring nothing new, only to reestablish the religion of Abraham/Ibrahim (saw) that of pure monotheism.

again, this is your opinion and, although you're entitled to it, we do not consider that our monotheism is "impure" by comparison. similarly, we do not acknowledge that our monotheism is in any significant way less "pure" than abraham's; nor do we agree that the monotheism of muhammad is exactly abraham's "pure" monotheism. this argument that muslims are doing what abraham did and jews aren't is not especially conducive to meaningful dialogue, any more than the argument that jesus fulfils the Torah. this doesn't mean jews, muslims and christians lack any common heritage and values, nor does it detract from my enormous admiration for both religions and their founders - it only means that we're not particularly interested in validating them.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[bananabrain]

hmmm. well, maybe there are some "learning points" there. i personally think learning some arabic would be a start (and that goes for me as well)!

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Turok76]

Question for the Jews. Who is HaShem?

[dauer]

Hello Turok.

Hashem is a substitution for the Tetragrammaton, the four-letter name of God, which is not pronounced. It literally means "The Name." It's not used in prayer. In prayer, it would be more likely to hear Adonai, which means My Lord, or among some (small number) progressive Jews the name Yah, which does contain two of the four letters and none of the heirarchical qualities of Adonai, not necessarily the same gender issues, depending how you look at it.

When talking about God casually, Jews will often say Hashem, although sometimes not.

Dauer

[mansio]

I know a little bit of Hebrew. Adon means Lord, Adoni means my Lord, so why

Adonay ? What's the difference between Adoni and Adonay ?

[dauer]

Adonai indicates God. Adoni indicates man. But the spelling is the same. It's just the vowelization that changes.

[mansio]

Toda raba Dauer.

[mansio]

Dauer

I just had a discussion about Psalm 22:16, the famous 'kaari raglay veyaday'.
I noticed that the ending 'ay' was for a plural+my.
As it looks like the ending of Adonay, I think that Adonay doesn't mean 'my Lord' but 'my Lords'.

[ygalg]

<H1 dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Torah Deuteronomy 18 / Qu’ran 5

Qu’ran 5.20 And when Musa said to his people: O my people! Remember the favor of Allah upon you when He raised prophets among you and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations.

Qu’ran 5.21O my people! Enter the holy land, which Allah has prescribed for you, and turn not on your backs for then you will turn back losers.
(The events that mention in these verses are taking from the Deuteronomy)



The Qu’ran repeats several times “O children of Israel!”


And couple of times Israelites

“Children of Israel” it is what people coined in their mind as it repeats itself more than the name “Israel” alone in the torah

Deuteronomy 18 does not mentioning ‘Israel’ nor ’children of Israel’ nor ‘the tribes of Israel’ only the Levites mention there so when it says your “brethren” what will be logical to comprehend?

There are two options 1. Deuteronomy 18mentions only Levites and it starts with them 2.it addresses to the children of Israel

They do not recognize themselves as Israel alone they know that the name Israel alone addresses their patriarch

• Brethren to Levitesare children of Israel!
• Brethren to children of Israel are children of Israel!

</H1>

[bananabrain]

ygalg - but what is your *point*??

i wish people would actually express their opinions rather than cut-and-pasting those of others.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[dauer]

Mansio,

I don't know enough Hebrew to answer that surely.