Putting God on Trial: The Biblical Book of Job

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Jeannot

In line with the thesis of this thread, it's interesting that in one parable, Jesus compares God with an unjust judge.

Do you mean Luke 18? That's an interesting comparison. I read the parable of the widow and the unjust judge along these lines: "even an unjust judge who cares not about people will respond to pleas for justice if asked enough." Initially, my thought was to read into the parable the idea along the lines of "and God would at least do as much as an unjust judge." But if you think about it, the point of the parable is to encourage the disciples to continue praying ceaselessly. Of course, that would only be necessary if in fact God was just like the unjust judge. For it is implied that a just judge would care about people and would not need to be repeatedly begged for justice.

In short, the parable in Luke 18 actually does seem to liken God to the unjust judge who doesn't care about the pleas of people unless they irritate him by repeated entreaties. I doubt the author intended that meaning, but nevertheless, for the point of the parable as stated in Luke 18:1 to make sense, that is how it must logically be read.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

In short, the parable in Luke 18 actually does seem to liken God to the unjust judge who doesn't care about the pleas of people unless they irritate him by repeated entreaties. I doubt the author intended that meaning, but nevertheless, for the point of the parable as stated in Luke 18:1 to make sense, that is how it must logically be read.

MUST logically say what? Logically, to me, the word 'unjust' contrasts or differences the person in the flesh with God (swt). The word 'speedily' is also in contrast. Logically, to me, the man is not unjust because he was prodded into judging, but because he does not see all, hear all, and know all. Logically, the man can only judge by what he sees, by evidence and testimony... and there is very little of that when someone seeks to be avenged of an adversary. Also, the man judged not because he fears God (swt) or Man, but only because it benefitted him. I suggest to you that God (swt) does not have those limitations.

I witness that the parable teaches a few things... especially that this relationship between people who seek judgement for condemnation against each other is counter to those people having 'faith' in each other.

It may interest Christians to know that the Qur'an directly says the problem with most Christians is that they do NOT judge for what is true. While judging what you can't see is wrong (the plank in your eye)... not judging what you can see is also not struggling for the truth. The "do not judge lest you be judged" became fully, "do not judge" in the eyes of St. Paul. The fact is when you judge anything you place yourself on the table for judgement. The Qur'an also notes that people tend to only judge when it benefits them, which is obviously wrong. How many parents do not know the trouble they cause if they do not judge their children and teach them what is right from wrong? Notice the command, 'Listen to what the unjust judge has to say'.

I love that parable... it is one of many that enforces the word 'faith' contrary to the one that so many people cling to. If you can pray to God (swt) and have a situation speedily judged, how does that place in question whether the Son of Man will find faith? It is not faith in God (swt) that is in question there, but people not placing faith in each other because they are adversary.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

MUST logically say what? Logically, to me, the word 'unjust' contrasts or differences the person in the flesh with God (swt). The word 'speedily' is also in contrast. Logically, to me, the man is not unjust because he was prodded into judging, but because he does not see all, hear all, and know all.

That's possible. The story seems to indicate that the judge is unjust because he "neither fears God, nor cares about men." And because of this, he doesn't seek justice for the widow until she repeatedly entreats him to do so.

You could certainly be a person who does not see all, hear all and know all and still be interested the problems of people and desire to do the right thing by God, right?

More importantly, if God sees all, hears all and knows all (thereby making him the "just" judge, even in your understanding of the tale), then, presumably, he should be unlike the unjust judge in that he would care about seeing justice done without having to be asked repeatedly.

Yet . . . the whole point of the story is expressly stated in the first line, which is to encourage people to continue to entreat God with prayers. This would only make sense if, in fact, God were like the "unjust " judge in the parable.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I witness that the parable teaches a few things... especially that this relationship between people who seek judgement for condemnation against each other is counter to those people having 'faith' in each other.

I think I like and agree with this sentiment, but I'm not following how it is reflected in this particular story from Luke. Can you elaborate on this, please?

[Abogado del Diablo]

BTW, for the convenience of anyone following this discussion, here's the parable from Luke 18 (NIV):

1Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2He said: "In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared about men. 3And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, 'Grant me justice against my adversary.' 4"For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, 'Even though I don't fear God or care about men, 5yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won't eventually wear me out with her coming!' "
6And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

BTW, for the convenience of anyone following this discussion, here's the parable from Luke 18 (NIV):

I perceive that if the unjust judge would bring about an answer to the widow, how much quicker will the Just Judge of Heaven do the same? Or maybe I'm way off, but somehow I doubt it.

v/r

Q

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I perceive that if the unjust judge would bring about an answer to the widow, how much quicker will the Just Judge of Heaven do the same? Or maybe I'm way off, but somehow I doubt it.

v/r

Q

That's what I originally thought, too, until Jeannot's comment prompted me to read the parable a little more closely.

If God is a "just" judge who knows all and sees all, then why is asking for justice even necessary? By the logic of the parable, the just judge would desire to see justice, and would know to bring justice, even if not asked. But even if the just judge, for some reason, needed to be asked, he still wouldn't need to be asked more than once, would he? But it's inescapable that the point of the story according to the author is that one should keep praying to God - which assumes that like the unjust judge, he may not respond to only one request.

[lunamoth]

For some reason this discussion reminded me of this passage:

25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[b]?

28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. (Matthew 6)

Like many parables and stories of the Bible the question is not about changing what God would do, but changing our way of looking at it. In the parable of the unjust Judge I also would read it that if the unjust judge would eventually do as asked, how much more so would God who cares for us.

The prayers are not to plea to God as judge. God already knows all that we need and gives us what we need. Prayer is not for us to change God's mind and somehow get Him to perform for us, but for us to see that all that we have is already His Providence. The prayers are for us.

2 c,
luna

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

Yet . . . the whole point of the story is expressly stated in the first line, which is to encourage people to continue to entreat God with prayers. This would only make sense if, in fact, God were like the "unjust " judge in the parable.

Ok, I see what you are saying. There are lots of things where there is a polarized quality of something and then the absence of it. For example there is a truth, a lie, and no information at all. Or love, hate, and apathy. Hope, fear, ambivalence. Hot air, cold air, vacuum. So in this case there is possibility for a just judgement, an unjust judgement, or no judgement at all. It seems like you are combining an unjust judgement with none at all... or an unjust judge with a person who doesn't judge unless asked. To me, unjust means an unfairness, imbalance, bias, or partiality... and an unjust judge is a person who might create new injustices.

If you think about it, when we ask someone a question we are essentially asking for judgement. Maybe not to divide from an adversary, but for the judgement of our thoughts or for a situation. Like the other parable of knocking at the door... if we don't ask in prayer we might not get the answer.

Faith: I could write a long boring book on that word. I simply note it in the last line of the parable, and I see that two people who don't get along and persist to demand justice from each other may not have much of a relationship left. Most people cry for justice from their adversary, yet mercy for themselves. Rather than learn from each other and agree to disagree they may wish to be divided and isolated... where there is no faith left between them. Hence the need for the important aspects of forgiveness and mercy.

To me, the word judge is split in definition. It is one thing to judge and condemn or punish, and another to judge and just provide information. To me, the word 'rebuke' is an example of the latter. A person can toss away the rebuke but it still gives them key information from the judgement.

A couple of related verses that I like to contrast:
Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luke 6:37-38 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. Give, and it shall be given unto you...

So in the first, we are told to rebuke a sin... and in the second we are told that if we don't judge, then we won't be judged. If you think about it, any judgement placed on the table with someone can instantly bring their judgement.

Sadly, the definition of the words judge and condemn are alternating too, and muddying it up between versions. But there is no parable of the unjust condemner and in an example like John 8:1-11 the word condemn is used for 'stoning' instead of judge.

More than you asked for and all my opinion of course, guided or misguided.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

That's what I originally thought, too, until Jeannot's comment prompted me to read the parable a little more closely.

If God is a "just" judge who knows all and sees all, then why is asking for justice even necessary? By the logic of the parable, the just judge would desire to see justice, and would know to bring justice, even if not asked. But even if the just judge, for some reason, needed to be asked, he still wouldn't need to be asked more than once, would he? But it's inescapable that the point of the story according to the author is that one should keep praying to God - which assumes that like the unjust judge, he may not respond to only one request.

Why did my father wait until I "asked" for a base ball glove? He knew I wanted, even needed it for that particular time in my growth. But there was something more important that I had to learn. That was to ask.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

But there was something more important that I had to learn. That was to ask.

Why did he make you ask again and again though?

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

The prayers are not to plea to God as judge. God already knows all that we need and gives us what we need. Prayer is not for us to change God's mind and somehow get Him to perform for us, but for us to see that all that we have is already His Providence. The prayers are for us.

I agree. How would you reconcile that idea with the parable, though? Do you think the point of the parable is to encourage repeated prayers for the good it brings us simply from praying, or to repeatedly entreat God in anticipation that by us repeatedly asking, God will eventually be moved to act?

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

So in this case there is possibility for a just judgement, an unjust judgement, or no judgement at all. It seems like you are combining an unjust judgement with none at all... or an unjust judge with a person who doesn't judge unless asked.

Not necessarily. It seems like the parable combines the two though. The unjust judge is recongnized as "unjust" because he only acts after being asked repeatedly to intervene with his judgment.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

To me, unjust means an unfairness, imbalance, bias, or partiality... and an unjust judge is a person who might create new injustices.

I think that's how I would view it too. But the parable includes an additional category of "unjust judge," that might properly belong as well . . . one with a civic or moral obligation to judge, but chooses not to unless it suits his convenience. Thus, the person who doesn't judge unless harrassed by repeated requests might join our list of "unjust" judges.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

If you think about it, when we ask someone a question we are essentially asking for judgement. Maybe not to divide from an adversary, but for the judgement of our thoughts or for a situation.

I agree with this. I think understanding this idea is the key to communicating across religions and cultures.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Like the other parable of knocking at the door... if we don't ask in prayer we might not get the answer.

You mean "ask . . . seek . . . knock . . ."? I think I see what you are saying, and I agree with that. One must genuinely ask, seek and knock to discover the answer. How does this relate to the traditional notion of prayer as a request for divine intervention? While I don't intend to paint anyone with a broad brush, it is certainly a popular understanding that prayer is a means by which we request God's divine intervention. Like I asked Luna, is there a meaning behind the meaning of Luke 18? Is this parable about what prayer does for us in our asking, seeking and knocking? Or is the parable about expecting to be able to reach beyond ourselves by our repeated requests to move God into action?

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I simply note it in the last line of the parable, and I see that two people who don't get along and persist to demand justice from each other may not have much of a relationship left. Most people cry for justice from their adversary, yet mercy for themselves. Rather than learn from each other and agree to disagree they may wish to be divided and isolated... where there is no faith left between them. Hence the need for the important aspects of forgiveness and mercy.

That was beautifully put. Thanks.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Sadly, the definition of the words judge and condemn are alternating too, and muddying it up between versions. But there is no parable of the unjust condemner and in an example like John 8:1-11 the word condemn is used for 'stoning' instead of judge.

More than you asked for and all my opinion of course, guided or misguided.

No, this is what I was hoping for when I asked. You raise some very interesting ideas that I want to think some more about - particularly the contrast between a call to rebuke and a call not to judge. Thanks for your response.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

I agree. How would you reconcile that idea with the parable, though? Do you think the point of the parable is to encourage repeated prayers for the good it brings us simply from praying, or to repeatedly entreat God in anticipation that by us repeatedly asking, God will eventually be moved to act?

I think this parable is about faith. I don't think that prayers are more 'effective' for repetition. A simple inarticulate groan is 'heard' just as much as repeating a prayer over and over. I think the point of repeated prayer is to stay 'in the Spirit' and so in a state of receptiveness to what unfolds. Prayer imbues us with the gifts of the Spirit and we are transformed. But to answer your question, I don't know. Perhaps the parable was to encourage the 'practice' of prayer the way a parent teaches a child something that they should do, or not do, even if they can't fully understand the reason for it. I do not think that 'God changes His mind,' even though there are stories in the Bible where this seems to be the case (the sparing of Isaac on the mountain and Abraham's intercession for the people of Sodom come to mind) all prayers have been heard and answered before the world was born, it is our perspective that changes through prayer. It is about our faith, which the parable of the unjust judge and the one I picked out about the lilies both to me seem to address. Here's another that comes to mind:

24Jesus left that place and went to the vicinity of Tyre.[g] He entered a house and did not want anyone to know it; yet he could not keep his presence secret. 25In fact, as soon as she heard about him, a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an evil[h] spirit came and fell at his feet. 26The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.

27"First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

28"Yes, Lord," she replied, "but even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs."

29Then he told her, "For such a reply, you may go; the demon has left your daughter."

30She went home and found her child lying on the bed, and the demon gone.

Once again Jesus seems to be harsh, if not unjust, and then with pleading he changes his mind. I think it points to the way the Gospel spread to the gentiles after first being presented to the Jews, but it is also about steadfast faith. Interesting though to think who exactly was transformed by faith in this one.

just ramblings,
luna

[Jeannot]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think this parable is about faith. I don't think that prayers are more 'effective' for repetition. A simple inarticulate groan is 'heard' just as much as repeating a prayer over and over. I think the point of repeated prayer is to stay 'in the Spirit' and so in a state of receptiveness to what unfolds. Prayer imbues us with the gifts of the Spirit and we are transformed. But to answer your question, I don't know. Perhaps the parable was to encourage the 'practice' of prayer the way a parent teaches a child something that they should do, or not do, even if they can't fully understand the reason for it. I do not think that 'God changes His mind,' even though there are stories in the Bible where this seems to be the case (the sparing of Isaac on the mountain and Abraham's intercession for the people of Sodom come to mind) all prayers have been heard and answered before the world was born, it is our perspective that changes through prayer. It is about our faith, which the parable of the unjust judge and the one I picked out about the lilies both to me seem to address. Here's another that comes to mind:



Once again Jesus seems to be harsh, if not unjust, and then with pleading he changes his mind. I think it points to the way the Gospel spread to the gentiles after first being presented to the Jews, but it is also about steadfast faith. Interesting though to think who exactly was transformed by faith in this one.

just ramblings,
luna

Maybe one aspect of the parable is that God sometimes SEEMS like an unjust judge. And, whether He is or not, we should never stop pestering Him. (Was it Paul who said "Pray always"?)

With regard to the Gentile (Greek-speaking) woman, one interesting thing is that Jesus and the apostles seem to have gone on vacation to the seashore. Anyway, Jesus was incognito. Maybe (I'm obviously specualting here) Jesus was upset to be once again beseeched for a cure--something he had thought to get away from for a bit.

Also, we note as elsewhere, the typical Jewish prejudice against Gentiles. They called them "dogs" because they ate everything. Jesus changes his mind because of the woman's witty response, but above all, because of her desperation, born of love for her daughter.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

Why did he make you ask again and again though?

First time, to make sure that was really what I wanted (and needed). Second time confirmed my commitment to (hence the need for), and it was granted.

Well done Abogado.