Purgatory?

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Silas

So you dont believe in an actually place?

More like a period of time, rather than a place. I mean think about it. There are some people who have hurt you and some people that you yourself have hurt. If you've never been reconciled with them, you're not just going to pop up to them in Heaven as if nothing has happened, and say "Hey, Bob, how's it going, praise the Lord!

Suppose for instance that before you got saved, you killed a Christian, leaving behind his wife and three kids. Then, by the grace of God, you become a Christian yourself. When you die and go to, what do you think is going to happen when you meet the Christian you killed? Do you not think that some kind of healing needs to take place? Some exchange of words or solance? Something?

[InLove]

LOL, Thomas--I don't get the joke yet, but somehow I sense that it will be hilarious once I understand it. What makes me think of Poypeye cartoons?

InPeace,
InLove

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Thomas

but do you believe in Purgatory?
Do I believe in the possibility of repentance after death? Yes, for the following reason ...

This is not directed at Thomas, just thought it captured a key idea for me, namely, what is purgatory?

Anyway, the the growing tension in the Anglican Communion recently (and there's always tension...it's a defining characteristic of our Communion ; it's a good thing, IMO, as long as the tension does not permutate into discord) has lead to the proposal that we adopt a Covenant to act as an overarching instrument of Unity for the worldwide Anglican Communion. In other words, trying to tighten up the guidelines for our responsibilities and relationships to each other, see as we don't have one central authority such as the Pope. And, part of the proposed Covenant directs our attention to the historical 39 Articles adopted by the C of E when it was founded (split off from Rome).

Of interest is Article3 XXII., which (to my surprise) is a rejection of the doctrine of Purgatory. However, we do pray for the deceased. When Protestants in general rejected the doctrine of Purgatory, they also stopped saying prayers for the deceased. Yet, to us this seems such a natural thing to do as well still love them and still thus express that love connection through prayer. (Baha'is also pray for the deceased because although there is no state called purgatory, it is believed that the soul continuously progresses toward God in the next world(s), and that our prayers for them assist that process.)

So, what I'm winding my way around to saying is that I think the reason we say prayers for the dead, in addition to being a visible sign of our continued love and relationship with them, is that it does seem to make sense that there can be repentence after death. I thank Thomas for his post on this. In fact, perhaps the most significant chance for repenetence would be at the transition into death, even if we don't believe in an actual state called purgatory, a kind of in-between 'place.'

From the Cornithians reading that has been pointed out by Dondi, and because we know that sin (by definition) can't be part of what enters into the presence of God, there must be something in the transition, some kind of purification (by fire). I don't really think this is a physical fire. Most Episcopalians view hell as a state of separation of God and heaven is reunion with God, and this is the view I have as well. It probably falls short, but it's a model that reflects what I think is Biblical and is in accord with God's nature (God IS love).

During our lifetime, in spite of our baptism, or even if we are not baptized or non-Christians, we sin. We are forgiven this sin through our Christian repentence, but it's still there. In this life we can't really even see all of our sin for what it is, although some of us dwell on this and make it a focal point of belief, I don't think that is expected or necessary. We know it's there, things done and left undone, whether we can bring it to the fore and repent of it, or not.

So, God being Love, and our Creator, and Good, knows this about each of us. When the veils are removed our sin will be there, apparent to us in its fullness for the first time. This is our judgement...facing the immensity of our sin for what it really is. Who, in the face of this, in the presence of our Glorious and perfectly Good God, seeing things clearly for the first time, will not feel the "fire" of fallenenss and separation caused by that sin? And, who would not repent of it? (And who would not need prayer support...an outflow of love, during that?) The gulf between us and our Beloved is hell, even as we know that we are loved and forgiven, crossing the gap must be like fire.

The larger our sin, the larger the gap. The more we've filled that gap by repentence in this life, the more we've been able to practice forgiveness ourselves (giving and recieving), the less 'painful' that gap will be to cross. (I hope you all realize that I am writing metaphorically).

Most important, only that part of us that is Love can make the crossing and be with God. All that is 'sin' must be left behind. How much of oursevles do we want to leave behind?

Why would anyone want to reincarnate, rather than resurrect into a heavenly body, imperishable and with God? Haha, I have my thoughts on the resurrection body as well, but I guess that's for another thread.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Dondi

More like a period of time, rather than a place. I mean think about it. There are some people who have hurt you and some people that you yourself have hurt. If you've never been reconciled with them, you're not just going to pop up to them in Heaven as if nothing has happened, and say "Hey, Bob, how's it going, praise the Lord!

Suppose for instance that before you got saved, you killed a Christian, leaving behind his wife and three kids. Then, by the grace of God, you become a Christian yourself. When you die and go to, what do you think is going to happen when you meet the Christian you killed? Do you not think that some kind of healing needs to take place? Some exchange of words or solance? Something?

I see no reason in scripture to assume that we will need some sort of healing. Rather, I see manifold evidence that the opposite may be the case, namely that, in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, we will be glorified and perfect as our Father and God is perfect. In Heaven, we will see God as He is and it is this awesome sight that will cause us to forget about our life on earth. I'd love to speak more about what seeing God would be like, but I'm all too aware that nothing I say will suffice or even come close to the reality of infinite joy that we will have when we see our Creator face-to-face. As the Apostle Paul said, "our present suffering are nothing to be compared with the glory that lies ahead." By the way, I highlighted something that I thought was interesting. You mentioned that it is by the grace of God people become Chrisitan. How do you understand that in light of your beleif that man has a self-determining will to become a Christian on his own? Who makes a man a Christian - the man by his faith, or God by his gift of grace and faith?

[InLove]

I look forward to those thoughts, lunamoth, and I appreciate your comments here.

InPeace,
InLove

[Dor]

Originally Posted by Silas

Dondi, you believe in purgatory? The verses you gave me, by the way, is dealing with the subject of a believer's motives. If his works are done in the wrong motives, it will be counted as either, straw, or wood, or hay, at the believer's judgement. Look at the verses in closely in context, you'll see that the fire tests a man's service, of what sort it is. The man is saved despite the fact that his works are consumed by the fire.

Exactly 1 corinthians 3:11-15 have nothing to do with purgatory

[Dor]

Mee,

Mark this down we actually agree.

I have one question for all of you that beliefs there is such a place.*well maybe 2*
Why did Jesus die? Why do you limit his righteousness?

Q,
"All who die in Gods grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."

That is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1030.
The way you had it wrote made it seem you were saying it was from Revelation 21.

[Dor]

Just a little thing I noticed from all the posts for purgatory or praying for the dead.
Seems alot of people have it in their mind that they have to do a certain amount of *works*(for lack of a better word) to make up for sin before they can get into heaven.

Sorry but thats what the cross did!

[InLove]

Yes, Dor--that is what the cross means to me. It does not necessarily mean that to everyone. But they do look to it, don't they?

InPeace (with all my heart)
InLove

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Dor

Just a little thing I noticed from all the posts for purgatory or praying for the dead.
Seems alot of people have it in their mind that they have to do a certain amount of *works*(for lack of a better word) to make up for sin before they can get into heaven.

Sorry but thats what the cross did!

Hi Dor,

But don't you believe there there will be a judgement, even for believers? I think this is what we are talking about. Not whether there is reunion with God/Heaven for Christians, but what that judgement looks like, and what if anything it means.

Do you believe in repentence in this life? Would you call that a 'work?'

Not debating...just asking.

luna

[Dor]

We are to repent of any and all things contrary to God's revealed word which means we need to study the Bible so we might be better conformed to what He desires. We also need to face the reality that even though we Christians are redeemed, we are still battling our sins and, unfortunately, we fail too often to live up to the standard of God's holy perfection. This is why we need Jesus.
When we become Christians, the righteousness of Jesus is imputed to us; that is, it is reckoned to our account so that God sees us as being righteous because of the work of Christ.


Jesus bore all our sins, not just some of them, not just the ones we are able to repent of, but also the ones that we struggle with and continually fight against. The important truth is that we are not redeemed by our efforts at holiness and we do not maintain salvation by repenting and not sinning. All our hope and security is in Jesus and He loves us and forgives us as often as we need it.
There is absolutely no penance that we can do that can ever please God in anyway. If there were, then Jesus would not have needed to die for our sins. The simple truth is that if we try and do something to suffer in order to make ourselves right with God, we are insulting God and the very work of Christ on the cross by attempting to please God by our works.

[wil]

The heretic in me believes we should be doing good works just to do them...

[Dor]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Dor,

But don't you believe there there will be a judgement, even for believers?

luna

I believe the quotes from 1 Cor 3 on this post is from judgement day when our actions and motives are tested and our rewards are granted not some place me make up for our sins.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Dor

I believe the quotes from 1 Cor 3 on this post is from judgement day when our actions and motives are tested and our rewards are granted not some place me make up for our sins.

Then we are talking about the same thing it seems, as I also do not think there is a place where we make up for our sins. How could we make up for them anyway? What could we do except see them for what they are and then leave them behind?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Dor

We are to repent of any and all things contrary to God's revealed word which means we need to study the Bible so we might be better conformed to what He desires. We also need to face the reality that even though we Christians are redeemed, we are still battling our sins and, unfortunately, we fail too often to live up to the standard of God's holy perfection. This is why we need Jesus.
When we become Christians, the righteousness of Jesus is imputed to us; that is, it is reckoned to our account so that God sees us as being righteous because of the work of Christ.

I would phrase it differently, but in essence I agree.

Jesus bore all our sins, not just some of them, not just the ones we are able to repent of, but also the ones that we struggle with and continually fight against.

I agree.

The important truth is that we are not redeemed by our efforts at holiness and we do not maintain salvation by repenting and not sinning. All our hope and security is in Jesus and He loves us and forgives us as often as we need it.

I agree. However maybe I have a different understanding of what repentence is. To me it does not mean to suffer or have punishment in this life, and it does not mean to just be really really sorry (although both of those may be side-effects of true repentence), but to repent means to really change my ways...to transform and align my way with God's, by and with God's help. This is the way to healing...in this life.

There is absolutely no penance that we can do that can ever please God in anyway.

And I don't think any is expected, esp not in a quid pro quo manner.

If there were, then Jesus would not have needed to die for our sins. The simple truth is that if we try and do something to suffer in order to make ourselves right with God, we are insulting God and the very work of Christ on the cross by attempting to please God by our works.

I understand and agree, although I would phrase it differently, put emphasis differently. But, it would amount to the same thing, as long as we understand that these are the signs and not the things signified.

But, you do believe in repentence in this life: We need to aim for righteousness, even as we realize that in this fallen world we too will always fall short? And that it is God's grace that covers this gap.

luna