Prophecy of the Future vs Freedom of Choice

[seattlegal]

Thank you, juantoo3.

[Bandit]

So is Revelations set as a definite future, or is it possible, though human choice, that Revelations will never come true?

And if it never comes true, then would that mean that Revelations is not prophecy?

Can you see the paradox I'm playing with?

i see some paradox in the book itself & i have heard what you are getting at before but,
the book does not work that way. it flip flops around in time & parts of it has already come to pass. it is declared a book of prophecy, with visions etc. & is a testimony of Jesus.
how can you make something not come true that has already come true?
i think a lot of what we see there happening on earth (GREAT TRIBULATION) goes down very rapidly & in less than a decade.

it seems through human choice, humans will make it come true & have already made parts of it come to pass.

IMHO

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bandit!

it seems through human choice, humans will make it come true & have already made parts of it come to pass.

This is a very insightful observation!

It seems to me the process described in Revelations is almost inevitable, given human nature and thirst for power, going all the way back the the Tower of Babylon. On the other hand though, I sometimes wonder if Christianity specifically can see its role and responsibility in making the prophecy come to pass. That is another reason I think the rapture teaching is so dangerous, it absolves Christians of their responsibilities in their own minds, but not in reality. Without the rapture, or better stated, when the rapture does not come to pass, a lot of American Christians in particular are going to be in for a very unpleasant surprise. This pains me to say, but I have seen this for a very long time.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Bandit!



This is a very insightful observation!

It seems to me the process described in Revelations is almost inevitable, given human nature and thirst for power, going all the way back the the Tower of Babylon. On the other hand though, I sometimes wonder if Christianity specifically can see its role and responsibility in making the prophecy come to pass. That is another reason I think the rapture teaching is so dangerous, it absolves Christians of their responsibilities in their own minds, but not in reality. Without the rapture, or better stated, when the rapture does not come to pass, a lot of American Christians in particular are going to be in for a very unpleasant surprise. This pains me to say, but I have seen this for a very long time.

yah. there are two sides to it. kind of like what side are we on. i never fully agreed with the rapture doctrine, like a secret thing & there must be about 5 different doctrines out on that.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Specifically from a Christian position (but posted on this board for Muslim and Jewish perspective), a key founding stone of Christianity is that humanity had the Free Will to obey or disobey God - but disobeyed and were left bereft of Eden.

In this argument, humanity obviously has Freedom of Choice.

However, the Book of Revelations is stated to be a work of prophecy, that by a series of mystical and complex symbolic elements, tells us the future of humanity on earth.

In this argument, humanity has no Free Will and is subject to Predestination.


Are these viewpoints flawed? If so, which one?

If not, then what is the reconcillation between Free Choice and Predestination in Biblical texts?

Is it simply that we all have a choice, but God already knows the outcome? In which case, if the decision is already decided and made, then do we really have any choices at all?


An opener for discussion...

I submit that Revelation advises that this is the consequence that will befall man, if man continues down the path as described in the book. Free will is left intact, and the implication is that if our free will is used in a proper fashion, we will avoid all of the grief that awaits us. We have free will. But the results of that free will are spelled out.

It is very much like day to day living. If for example I choose to speed down the freeway, I may end up with a ticket. It is my choice, however the outcomes for such choices are spelled out clearly.

God knows the outcome for each choice we make, however the future is not written in stone, and Revelation does point that out.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

[Bandit]

i wonder what humans think they can change this:

(Rev 17:17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

could it be the same ones fulfilling that verse, would be the ones who think they can change this one:

(Rev 19:16) And he hath on {his} vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

& i wonder what influence would be behind that.

it appears to me God has free will in some of this & is doing the gathering, not just the will of humans alone.
hmmm

(Rev 16:14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, {which} go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
(Rev 16:15) Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed {is} he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(Rev 16:16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

[seattlegal]

(Rev 17:17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Hmm, perhaps it might be related to Revelations 2?

Revelations 2
The Corrupt Church

18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,
‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
24 “Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘ He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—

as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star.
29 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

Perhaps this would be a true test of hearts and minds? People will be drawn out by their desires (for power), and those who give into those desires will have "taken those desires to heart," be the ones who referred to in Rev 17:17? Just a thought. God is much smarter than we are. Can we ever be sure, except through faith?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Hmm, perhaps it might be related to Revelations 2?

Perhaps this would be a true test of hearts and minds? People will be drawn out by their desires (for power), and those who give into those desires will have "taken those desires to heart," be the ones who referred to in Rev 17:17? Just a thought. God is much smarter than we are. Can we ever be sure, except through faith?

maybe sattlegal. i just pulled those verses out of context to make a point. if humans think they can change the book, then they would think they can change that Jesus is Lord of Lords & King of Kings and we know God is not going to allow that.

I think Brian is just being a little instagator (but in a good way) to stimulate conversation.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Bandit

maybe seattlegal. i just pulled those verses out of context to make a point. if humans think they can change the book, then they would think they can change that Jesus is Lord of Lords & King of Kings and we know God is not going to allow that.

I think Brian is just being a little instagator (but in a good way) to stimulate conversation.

You're right. It reminds me of Jeremiah's prayer about how it is not for man who is walking even to direct his own steps. It also brings to mind Proverbs 16.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

You're right. It reminds me of Jeremiah's prayer about how it is not for man who is walking even to direct his own steps. It also brings to mind Proverbs 16.

yah. just like Jeremiahs prayer. just like Ninevah that you mentioned & just like Proverbs 16. Lately, i have a hard enough time guiding myself to wake up when the alarm goes off in the morning.

11 Honest scales and balances are from the LORD;
all the weights in the bag are of his making.

Another one i think of is when Abraham went down to get Lot & his family.

BTW- i was in seattle once. late 80's on a day they got a huge snow storm. i never seen so much snow at one time in a place they say does not get that much snow, usually. love the pines & the river (columbia river?) & puget sound.

[seattlegal]

BTW- i was in seattle once. late 80's on a day they got a huge snow storm. i never seen so much snow at one time in a place they say does not get that much snow, usually. love the pines & the river (columbia river?) & puget sound.

That would be the Green River, which turns into the Duwamish waterway. The Columbia River marks the southern border of Washington state, and by the time it gets this far west, it's huge!

[Popeyesays]

[quote=I, Brian]Specifically from a Christian position (but posted on this board for Muslim and Jewish perspective), a key founding stone of Christianity is that humanity had the Free Will to obey or disobey God - but disobeyed and were left bereft of Eden.

In this argument, humanity obviously has Freedom of Choice.

However, the Book of Revelations is stated to be a work of prophecy, that by a series of mystical and complex symbolic elements, tells us the future of humanity on earth. [quote]
------------------------------------------------------

In this argument, humanity has no Free Will and is subject to Predestination.


Are these viewpoints flawed? If so, which one?

From a Baha`i standpoint both viewpoints are true.
The purpose for each individual's existence in this world is to CHOOSE. Its a simple choice on the surface: a God-centered view of Creation, or an ego-centered view of existence - submission versus independence.

There is the understanding that all men are the servants of God, willing or unwilling and the purpose of God cannot be thwarted.

A short prayer by the Bab says it: "Is there any Remover of Difficulty save God. Say: Praised be God. He is God. All are His servants and all abide by His will."

We have a responsibility to choose. We exist in a universe that pursues God's purpose. What's diametrically opposed in that?

As to Revelations, of course it is true; but it is a metaphor, rich with meaning. It does not have a single - literally true interpretation. To view it as a road map for creation is bound to create problems.

Regards,

Scott
If not, then what is the reconcillation between Free Choice and Predestination in Biblical texts?

Is it simply that we all have a choice, but God already knows the outcome? In which case, if the decision is already decided and made, then do we really have any choices at all?

[littlemissattitude]

There are a couple of different ways to look at this.

First, from the perspective of how can God know what we will do, but we have free will to choose what we do: These two conditions are not necessarily contradictory if God is outside of time. We choose what we do, but because God is outisde of time (if this is our assumption) we have already done what we are going to do and God merely observed it. Kind of science-fictiony, but I've been in theology classes where this possibility is presented as quite valid.

Second, from the perspective of one who is a prophet/clairvoyant, or who has had experiences in which he or she has "seen" things that later took place: the thing seen is not a certainty, but a probability that turned out to be the correct alternative of a range of things that could have happened. In other words, the things prophesied/predicted are not bound to happen, but may possibly happen. If one of these things does happen, then the prophet/clairvoyant gets credit for being correct. If one of these things does not happen, then the prophet/clairvoyant is accused to being a charlatan. Actually, some of the people currently working today in this area (claiming to be clairvoyant) take the position that what they see are possibilities instead of certainties, and some even assign probability percentages to the things they predict. Again, free will is not contradicted.