Proofs for existence of God

[presser_kun]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

To think that no creature but Man conceives of God is in itself arrogance in the extreme.

Do you have evidence of non-humans conceiving of God?

Science is not a religion.

Do you believe what science tells us because you have worked through every proof of every assertion of science, or do you take what science says on faith?

Originally Posted by Proph 1

One of the proof I have of God's existence is the conscience...

Conscience is the result of socialization. Without other humans to tell me something is wrong, I have no conscience.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I came over to your block to give you a bit of your own medicine.

It hurts doesn't it?

What medicine? Why does it hurt? What have you said that is supportable by more than your desire for it to be true?

[presser_kun]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You are quite welcome.

v/r

Q

Do you have anything to say about my logic here? Are there flaws in my reasoning? I'd welcome anything you care to share.

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

There are no proofs for the existence of God - merely illustrative metaphors.

So far as I understand it, to "prove" is to quantify and measure - but I do not believe that God can be subject to either.

2c.

Namaste Brian,

indeed.. proof is a quality of alcohol and maths, not deities

evidence should be what we are seeking, in my view.

metta,

~v

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

proof????

BAAAAH.

b'shalom

bananabrain

LOL... welcome back my friend!



metta,

~v

[brucegdc]

In the strict technical sense, there are neither proofs for the existence of God, nor for the non-existence of God, as there is no independently reproduceable evidence of either theory or it's complement.

Similarly there is no proof that God is singular, either :-)

On the other hand, there's no proof I exist either.

... Figment

[Proph 1]

On the other hand, there's no proof I exist either.

How do you deny your own existence?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by presser_kun

Do you have anything to say about my logic here? Are there flaws in my reasoning? I'd welcome anything you care to share.

Your logic is impeccable. It is your faith that is flawed. The Mods were not addressing you, they merely look out for all folk here at CR. They are a careful crew.

I stand corrected. you are entitled to your own way of thinking. I made the mistake. You are entitled to believe in nothing. I am in no position to push otherwise.

Q

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by presser_kun

Do you have anything to say about my logic here? Are there flaws in my reasoning? I'd welcome anything you care to share.

Hi Presser Kun. I have much sympathy with what you and Awaiting the Fifth had to say in your exchange above. I started a reply earlier but got too long-winded. I’ll try to be brief. (And not succeed!)

These logical proofs – ontological, from first cause, by design, etc. – are a mug’s game, as you know. Part of the problem is that we come from a tradition that finds the relation between logic and faith so problematic that it’s devoted centuries to unsuccessful logical proofs of the existence of the personal & monotheistic God. The Aristotelian-Thomistic system is the greatest monument to this preoccupation, using all the tools of Greek logic to demonstrate the existence of God while being ultimately based on faith from the beginning, in the middle and to the end! It’s good to keep in mind that this problematic is not universal. But it’s a clue to why so many of us still want to mis-use logic in this way.

On the other hand, I think we might do well to make a distinction here, between God in the full, ultimate sense, as ground of being, as godhead, and the personal God that acts in the world or is engaged in some fashion in the world. I think what you find is that God in the ultimate sense is no more and no less than reality, and doesn’t need nor will admit of proof. If you look at the most sophisticated views of God or ultimate reality, whether Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, Neo-platonic, Gnostic, you’ll find what is in effect beyond description, and for that reason usually defined in negative terms. It’s there to be experienced by the wise, as the Buddha said, so it’s not a matter of proof and is no contradiction to science. In fact, the way of science is just one more set of languages and methods to explore our experience of the extraordinary & inconceivable thusness of reality. This is what that old saying refers to when it talks about one mountain but many paths to the summit.

The trouble starts with the descent down the mountain, from the impersonal godhead to ideas of a personal God or spirit acting in the world. So to connect the dots between godhead and the personal God you have theories of successive emanations – as with the Kabbalah, the Neo-Platonists and among some Indians – as well as incarnation, prophethood, etc. This is where things get really messy, where reason is most abused, and where unfortunate political and social fallout is most severe.

On the other hand, I wouldn’t give up on that troubled human realm of contradictory theologies. For one thing, they’re a fact of life. For another, these different theologies depend completely on the way we use them. They can cause damage or bring benefit, but at least they wrestle with the most significant human experiences, and in that sense are inescapable.

As for your thought experiment, and barring the door to logic: as I’ve pointed out above, sometimes it’s worse to let logic in only to appropriate it to illegitimate ends and merely to prop up dogma. As well, logic itself can be used as a barrier to authentic experience. We can cling to a syllogism as a defence. Myself, I’m fairly addicted to logic, but I don’t consider it a problem. Put another way, other than pointing out its limitations, I don’t see any need to especially violate logic to experience faith and even to believe in a reality that other people would articulate as “God”.

[Quahom1]

Thank God for Aarron.

[airamee]

Originally Posted by Proph 1

How do you deny your own existence?

who better to decide?
i had a dream that i was a butterfly, and awoke to find that i was a butterfly dreaming that i was a (wo)man.
we all create our own reality.

[presser_kun]

Before anything else, I want to say that I respect your opinion. I do not want to prove anything to anyone. I do not want to be or appear to be sarcastic.

I was raised as a Christian fundamentalist. Spent many, many years as a quite earnest Christian. I still consider myself a Christian, though no longer serving Christ through the conservative Christian movement.

I want to know the truth. Truth is more important to me than anything I believe. Even more important than my belief in God.

Perhaps I'm too earnest in seeking truth. I don't know.

Hey, I could ramble for a long time, but won't. Here are my responses, honest responses, to what you said.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

It is your faith that is flawed.

Please explain. It seems you think I don't have any faith. Below, you say that I'm welcome to believe nothing. How is whatever faith you think I have flawed?

Why is it so wrong to question? Surely God is strong enough to weather the questions of his children, isn't he?

The Mods were not addressing you, they merely look out for all folk here at CR.

Hmm. Were there other mods in the conversation here besides you? I didn't notice any other bylines indicating that.

In any event, I felt that you were addressing me. Did I misread things?

I stand corrected. you are entitled to your own way of thinking. I made the mistake. You are entitled to believe in nothing. I am in no position to push otherwise.

I don't think you made any mistakes. On the contrary, I am probably the one who has made them.

The only way I know how to grow in my thinking is to push the boundaries. Ask questions. Hear answers. Consider the validity of what is said. And then pray. Ask God for wisdom and discernment.

I was sincere when I thanked you for your thoughts. They have helped me. Really.

Finally, you say my logic is impeccable. I find that hard to believe. Many others smarter and more clever than me have gone around and around these issues.

Actually, I would be quite surprised if there was nothing wrong with my logic. I asked only because I don't know how else to keep the dialog going.

I wish you peace.

press, who's still seeking

[presser_kun]

Ah, I apologise. I see that Vajradhara and brucegdc are both moderators.

But I still thought that they were speaking to all that follow this thread, and not just to other mods.

[presser_kun]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

These logical proofs <snip> are a mug’s game, as you know.

Part of the problem is that we come from a tradition that finds the relation between logic and faith so problematic <snip> It’s good to keep in mind that this problematic is not universal.

I think what you find is that God in the ultimate sense is no more and no less than reality....

....sometimes it’s worse to let logic in only to appropriate it to illegitimate ends and merely to prop up dogma. As well, logic itself can be used as a barrier to authentic experience.

I don’t see any need to especially violate logic to experience faith and even to believe in a reality that other people would articulate as “God”.

Thanks for your words. More for me to think about.

It's funny, you know?

I've fairly ranted and expounded my view as though it's a settled, accepted thing within me, when in reality it's very much in flux.

I believe in God. Really. I pray. I meditate.

But I also question. Part of me still wants to find a way to reconcile my logic with my faith. Another part wants to wash its hands of the whole mess. And a third part wants to lay it all down at the foot of the Cross, to use the evangelical terminology I grew up with, and trust in Jesus to "take care of things for me."

But I cannot seem to do any of these three things. It doesn't seem to me that that's because I'm indecisive.

*sigh*

I'm learning from everyone here, and am grateful for a forum where I can be heard, corrected, nudged, tolerated, and encouraged.

peace,

press

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Thank God for Aarron.

Because he was the first priest? Or?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by presser_kun

Before anything else, I want to say that I respect your opinion. I do not want to prove anything to anyone. I do not want to be or appear to be sarcastic.

I was raised as a Christian fundamentalist. Spent many, many years as a quite earnest Christian. I still consider myself a Christian, though no longer serving Christ through the conservative Christian movement.

I want to know the truth. Truth is more important to me than anything I believe. Even more important than my belief in God.

Perhaps I'm too earnest in seeking truth. I don't know.

Hey, I could ramble for a long time, but won't. Here are my responses, honest responses, to what you said.



Please explain. It seems you think I don't have any faith. Below, you say that I'm welcome to believe nothing. How is whatever faith you think I have flawed?

Why is it so wrong to question? Surely God is strong enough to weather the questions of his children, isn't he?



Hmm. Were there other mods in the conversation here besides you? I didn't notice any other bylines indicating that.

In any event, I felt that you were addressing me. Did I misread things?



I don't think you made any mistakes. On the contrary, I am probably the one who has made them.

The only way I know how to grow in my thinking is to push the boundaries. Ask questions. Hear answers. Consider the validity of what is said. And then pray. Ask God for wisdom and discernment.

I was sincere when I thanked you for your thoughts. They have helped me. Really.

Finally, you say my logic is impeccable. I find that hard to believe. Many others smarter and more clever than me have gone around and around these issues.

Actually, I would be quite surprised if there was nothing wrong with my logic. I asked only because I don't know how else to keep the dialog going.

I wish you peace.

press, who's still seeking

Peace for you as well.

v/r

Q