Proofs for existence of God

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namatse Devadatta,

thank you for the post.


nevertheless, it seems to be a well established tradition that, within the Indian experience, several schools had identified one of the Jhanas with ultimate liberation. there is a rather famous Sutta..

Would that be a Buddhist sutta? Anyway, I think we could wittle on this for a while but in the end our views are probably a little different but not all that far apart. When you look at tradition, I think you find different perceptions arising from basically sectarian impulses. Both sides - Santana Dharma and Buddha Dharma - claim priority of thought. Taking into account the extreme vagaries of Indian history and this long remove I think it's difficult for us to sort out all the mutual relations and influence of of these two dharma streams. But there's no doubt that by classical Gupta times both traditions were well developed, in close proximity, and shared a lot of parallel methods, tantric ones in particular. It would be incredible to me if the influence didn't run both ways.

Anyway, I'm rambling. In the end I think what's "distinct" and what's "similar" turn on peception and sectarian needs as much as logic. Shankara was called a "crypto-buddhist" by some of his co-religionists for the very reason that it was so difficult to distnguish his ultimate views from the ultimate views of Buddhists.

Cheers.

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by Nitai

There is an interesting word used in the Veds - acintya, what means that which is beyond this material world, that which our argument, logic and philosophical speculation cannot touch, that which is inconceivable.

Hi Nitai. I would point out that I've seen no one here dispute this idea - even those terrible killjoys, the atheists, would agree that reason isn't designed for the inconceivable. The difference of opinion is over the proper applications of reason. For people of faith, it means thinking about the best and most truthful way of applying reason in support of that faith, and not everyone has the same ideas on that score.

Originally Posted by Nitai

Therefore intelligent persons, avoiding useless argument and speculation, should accept what is stated in scriptures like the Vedas Given by infallible God Himself. Sounds dogmatic?.

Well, yes it does. And while I'm not a Sanskrit scholar - I can barely make out some of the sounds of the Devanagari - this adds an unpleasant flavour of dogmatism which I don't detect in the Bhagavad Gita, or in the Upanashads, or other pieces I've read. I can't help but think that for whatever reason your movement has taken over some of the "inerrancy of text" notion common in the Western tradition, but really foreign to yours.

To me, that's sad & unfortunate. The Indian tradition, like the Hebrew, begins with an idea of divine vocables. But the Indian tradition put its emphasis on oral transmission. Religious texts are traditionally more open-ended, with no very clear-cut canon. The Buddhist tradition carries on that example; some would say it's canon is still being written.

The point here is, as you say, realization not the text pointing to it. Even with the text worship you find for example associated with Prajnaparamita texts, it's well understood that these texts are written on water, not stone.

I think it's a mistake to think that because we live in a world that's so driven ideologically, your tradition must be ideological to survive. My belief is that all the strands of tradition in the Santana Dharma will have more success by being true to its original impulses.

Originally Posted by Nitai

So, the process for attaining vigyan is very simple. Just chant

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare

I'm very happy that you've discovered a practice that brings you close to God, and I appreciate your enthusiam in passing along the good word.

Shanti, Shanti, Shanti...

[Nitai]

Hare Krishna



I will make some points just for fun, although I think, nobody here is interested to realize God, or as I mentioned before to attain vigyan.



**For people of faith, it means thinking about the best and most truthful way of applying reason in support of that faith, and not everyone has the same ideas on that score.

# The two ways of attaining knowledge of the Absolute Truth are

1) Ascending: one tries by reason and arguments to understand the soul, the purpose of this universe and God.

2) Descending: one tries to realize all the above mentioned points, first by having little faith in the scriptures, and then by practicing the process of self-realization, he realizes the Absolute Truth laid down in the scriptures.

For one who don’t have even the smallest realization of some point of the scripture e.g. that the soul is different from the body, the scriptural knowledge that claims to be infallible and God given seems to be just a dogma. However, if small realizations are attained one gets gradually more and more faith in the scriptures, realizing that the scriptural tenets are not dogmatic, thus, as faith increases devotion to God also increase. Ultimately, one can realize God, Krishna by a fully blossomed, developed devotion. This is what Krishna says on the Bhagavad-gita – “I can be understood and attained only by devotion”.



**I think it's a mistake to think that because we live in a world that's so driven ideologically, your tradition must be ideological to survive.

#One tradition can survive or not; new traditions can come up and die out etc., that’s in this discussion not a main point. What I would like to emphasize here is that by practicing a certain process of particular tradition its value is tested, whether by the process that it offers people can attain God realization and detachment from this material world. If this is not attained and people don’t develop saintly qualities but remain materialistic etc., by practice of particular tradition, there is, obviously, something wrong with that tradition.



**I am very happy that you have discovered a practice that brings you close to God, and I appreciate your enthusiasm in passing along the good word.

# Thank you for your kind words and encouragement. Actually, this chanting of the holy name of God, for the sake of attaining the highest realization of God is recommended in all the scriptures. In the Kali-santarana Upanisad it is said, even three times, that the chanting of the holy name of God is the ‘only way’ (again 3x mentioned) to attain God-realization in this atheistic, spiritually degraded age, called Kali yuga. So, when something in the Vedic wisdom is 3x mentioned that message has a super great importance.

In the end, I wish a success to everybody who likes to take up this chanting of the holy name. It can be the holy name of your particular tradition, Christian, Jewish, Muslim or whatever. The power of chanting will be always there.

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by Nitai

Hare Krishna I will make some points just for fun, although I think, nobody here is interested to realize God, or as I mentioned before to attain vigyan.

Thanks for the further detail on your beliefs, Nitai. I agree that the fundamentals in the traditions you follow aren't dogmatic. Unfortunately, the tone you take is. It's hardly fair or very kind to say that no one here is seriously interested in God, just because others think differently or follow a different practice.

Your core message appears to be that we live in the kali yuga and our only salvation is through chanting. You perhaps don't understand that this emphasis is just as dogmatic as a Christian saying that there is no salvation except through the Jesus Christ of the Catholic Church, which I'm quite confident you would take excepion to.

The kali yuga is a unit of time from your tradition; other traditions name their eras differently. Chanting in some forms is recognized in all traditions; it's one of the universal practices. But it's not the only practice possible for our age.

Originally Posted by Nitai

# The two ways of attaining knowledge of the Absolute Truth are

Originally Posted by Nitai

.

Here's my adivice. Begin your sentence like this: In my tradition... Then everything that follows could be read without a feeling of coercion and with the interest it deserves.

Originally Posted by Nitai

# In the end, I wish a success to everybody who likes to take up this chanting of the holy name. It can be the holy name of your particular tradition, Christian, Jewish, Muslim or whatever. The power of chanting will be always there.

Thank you for the good wish and for putting the power of chanting into a larger context.

All the best.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Nitai

Hare Krishna



I will make some points just for fun, although I think, nobody here is interested to realize God, or as I mentioned before to attain vigyan.

I will be a little more frank. There is something one does not do here. One does not assume what others are or are not interested here at CR, particularly when pertaining to God. That in and of itself is the ultimate in arrogance and rudeness.

One's "enlightenment" ends at the tip of their nose (so to speak), just like one's rights.

As one percieves things, about self and personal growth, that may and should be discussed. One does not look down on others, nor imply nor state derogatory comments about other's paths in life.

It is not acceptable. I hope I have made myself quite clear...

v/r

Q

[earl]

I'd just started a new thread in "Alternative" section-in mysticism entitled "toward a universal mysticism?" simply to bring attention to a web site operated by a group called the center for sacred sciences because it looked so intriguing due to the apparent universalism of the mystical view they hold, (don't much about them-just found it). Just now started reading some of this guy's writings & boy did it "ring my bell." The piece I just read may apply here, "Coming to terms with God." If I were cyber astute enough to know how to do it, i'd direct link you but I don't but do want to commend a peek at this guy's piece & probably his whole dang site from what I'm seeing:

http://www.centerforsacredsciences.o...hings/god.html

Think I got me a buncha of stimulating & hopefully personally enriching reading to do. See ya, Earl

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by InLove

Hello, and Peace to All Here--

What Brian said. I am compelled to add this: The proof of the existence of God lies in the heart, mind, and Spirit of the individual. We look around, we look inside, and ultimately decide what we believe.

InPeace,
InLove

Like the Thunderbirds..... If you have the right "mind set" you may believe they are real beings..... Or you may have the "mind set" That see's it is simple a man pulling strings.... Man made illusions to help you squander your short pointless life...... Nothing more.