Proof for God's Non-Existence

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by PersonaNonGrata

will you involve in the debate or sit there and act like a teacher who frequently gives zero or similar grades

Why, hmmm. I am a teacher. I teach young people how to become responsible adults (and how to be engineers). I don't as a rule look to deliberately "fail" students...

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

But our self less actions can be explained by psychologists, anthropologists, sociologists or neurologists without any need for devine intervention in the process.

Also

If God created us, he knows us and understands our thought processes therefore he knows what decisions we will make in any given situation. In this case, he would have no need to move, nudge, encourage or cajole us to do anything. If we are created by God we are no more than a computer program in mid-execution which needs no intervention. So I reitterate my original argument, if the entity, "God" does not interact with us in any way, he ceases to be something which can be called God.

I am, of course, basing this argument on the pre-supposition that God is an entity which is central to our lives, who answers our prayers (in any way) and has a direct influence over the world. I think monotheists would accept this.

and i am just suppose to just believe whatever a socia, neuro, psyhco shrink has to say? that is not proof but a nice suggestion.

just because God does not intervene/interact for & with YOU, that proves there is no God? you said 'US' but i think you mean YOU.
you said we are no more than a computer program if God created us...but that is not proof, that is just your idea. maybe YOU (there i said it again), are just a computer program, but I am a child of the MOST HIGH GOD & every second i live, i make my own decisions but that does not prove there is no God.

Who says God does not move, nudge & encourage? another psycho head shrinker?

got any other brainstorms there ATF?

this part sounds right so you get a ++++ for effort.

I am, of course, basing this argument on the pre-supposition that God is an entity which is central to our lives, who answers our prayers (in any way) and has a direct influence over the world. I think monotheists would accept this.

Next------->

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by earl

Hey ATF-your response addresses some of the counter-arguments to traditional notions of "God." As a non-traditionalist, I'm looking forward to playing this game some more, but I want to wait for the more traditional players to join in Thanks for the thoughts, earl

Earl, i dont know what to say. it is impossible for me to think the way you do, even when i try, i can only laugh uncontrolled, not at you, but at the thought.

i have never never never, been able to concieve of there is no God because i end up laughing like crazy & cannot stop. i am serious, like it is the biggest joke i have ever heard. it is like an unending joy that will not allow me to think that way & all i do is laugh.

so i am just curious, since you dont believe, when you think of there being a ONE true God, do you laugh the same way I do? & i mean in a funny way, not a mean sarcastic way.
i have been wanting to ask someone that for awhile, so i look forward to your reply.

[InLove]

Hey, and peace to all everywhere, especially here--

I love you Bandit, and I know that you believe. You may not agree with me, but I also believe that earl believes.

Actually, I am not the judge, and neither are you, and neither is earl.

I am sure that I should write some more, but for right now, at this moment, I thought it right to write what I have right now.

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

Okay, maybe I have not read through the thread for, like the one millionth time---

Eventually, everyone is going to have to decide what he or she believes.

Bandit, I love you for what you want to be real. Can you make it real--today? Now?

I understand you, and what you want. I just don't think that you really understand what has been implemented in the name of what you believe....

Oh, God--I really love you, and I know this is going to offend you, but I do not know what else to say....

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

And in case anyone is wondering? I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and His Lamb. Without Him, I am lost.

InPeace,
InLove

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

InLove, no one could ever doubt that you believe and you always say it in such a perfect way, but for me at least, this thread isnt about belief, its more of a debating exercise. I think most people understand that we cannot either prove or disprove God with our brains, only with our hearts.

Having said that, Im gonna give it a good try. Y'all ready for this....?

Where was I? Oh yes, Bandit,

Should you just believe the word of these scientists? Yes, because they can prove theur points of view with empirical evidence. A neurologist will use MRIs to show how the individual neurons in your brain are firing in preset groups which are built up by your experiences and detemine your reactions to any given stimuli. A sociologist or anthropologist will determine how your actions are subconsiously designed to be of use to the community in which you live and a psychologist will explain the chemical imbalances in your brain which give rise to certain emotions. I do not personally know all the explanations because I am not any of these things, but I do know that scientists do not expect us to take their word for anything, everything must be empirically proven. Once these processes are proven, there is no longer any room in the equation for devine influence.

As for God interacting, did he not create us, did he not know us when we were in the womb and does he not know exactly what will happen in every second of our lives? Therefore what room is left for devine intervention here.

So I maintain that there is no direct intervention with God, he is therefore irrelevant to our daily lives and so is by definition, not god.

Quad erad demonstratem. (Who am I kidding) (and yes, I know my latin sucks)

[Bandit]

ATF, you can manitain that until the day you die, yet that still does not prove there is no God & that does not prove that in Him & by Him all things consist.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by InLove

Okay, maybe I have not read through the thread for, like the one millionth time---

Eventually, everyone is going to have to decide what he or she believes.

Bandit, I love you for what you want to be real. Can you make it real--today? Now?

I understand you, and what you want. I just don't think that you really understand what has been implemented in the name of what you believe....

Oh, God--I really love you, and I know this is going to offend you, but I do not know what else to say....

InPeace,
InLove

it is real for me. as real as it has been for 30 years, from the day & hour I was filled with the Holy Ghost, the same way it happened in the bible all through the book of Acts & no, i cannot do it for anyone else. it is not just a belief or theory for me.
so i don't know what you mean InLove.

[InLove]

hey--never mind, Bandit--I think it is me that got confused. I kind of jumped in again where I did not need to be. I guess I thought earl was being misunderstood, and I think I was trying to help. Anyway-LOL--just doing what I do sometimes. Confusing others, as well as myself--carry on, you guys

InPeace,
InLove

[earl]

Hey, Bandit, reading between the lines of your response to me illustrates the point I think devadatta was trying to make: without defining what we're talking about, how do you know that "my God" looks like "your God?" If "my God" doesn't resemble yours does it mean that I don't believe and am wrong? See, that's where I think the apophatic thesists and the Buddhists in a sense come together. What does "God" look like? Where does "God live?" Once you start thinking of "God" as an entity, you start encountering these questions that make no sense. Actually both Buddhists and Christians tend to think of spiritual entities, (devas and angels if you will), yet neither group claims that those entities represent their "ultimate" reality. In fact, both camps would say that "ultimate" reality in not describable in conventional language since that language is dualitic-things being either-or. In some schools of Buddhism, they speak of "Buddha Mind" as that ultimate reality and as the reality underlying all phenomena. So, in a sense when 1 is acting from "Buddha Mind," one, to use more theisitic thinking, is doing the bidding of the Ultimate, not doing the bidding of oneself, (meaning acting from "self-"ish motives). From the "God" side of my multiple theology disordered mind, that sounds no different than when Christians speak of doing "God's" will.

To continue from the God-side of the discussion, perhaps 1 can have a Moses & the burning bush kind of encounter with "God" but if you think about it, one never sees the "face of God," one can only "see" the effects of God; like ripples in a pond caused by the unseen stone thrown into it. What's interesting is to consider whether "God" does exhibit aspects we associate with "personhood," such as sentience, purpose, ability to relate in a personally loving manner. All of the literature of near-death experiences that speak of common occurrences of one experiencing universal love/compassion upon leaving the body, purposeful review of one's life past and possible "sentient" indications for the future are all tantalizingly suggestive of such divine sentience-though again at least semantically those experiences can be called by many things other than "God." (frankly, what's in a name?) Buddhists don't tend to speak of a Creator or purpose, yet they speak of karma and the indeterminant cycles of change (growth?) that lead to enlightenment-which they consider a good thing. That can imply "direction," "purpose" and a process implying "intelligence-"they simply don't try to put a face on Buddha Nature.

In Zen they speak of trying to see your "original face" before your parents were born, meaning a koan to jar someone out of their concrete view of a "self" to an open, more intuitive understanding. Similarly, for theists, I guess the ultimate is to see the face of God-a lovely koan-"what is the face of God?" We can strive to be the "effect" of God, to look for the effect of God, but I doubt we can anymore see the face of God than we can find our original face before our parents were born. So, Bandit, do i believe? Yes. But what do i believe? This. If when you & I both figure this out, please let me know Take care, Earl

[Bandit]

Hi Earl,

God does not look like anything to me. He is a real life spirit that moves & breathes life & power, not just an idea & not just a belief as others perceive that of me. i dont look for unexplained phenomena in the universe or science to need to to have a belief in some "THING".
God has proven to (ME) in many ways that He is a real life being- something beyond my imagination, & often beyond what i hear others say.

i dont think it is about who is right & wrong, but only the God I know is able to determine & He knows.
i dont know what you believe when penetrated way down deep inside Earl but it appears to not be the same as the God of Moses & Abraham & the same God of Jesus & the Apostles.

but i know you like Buddah & Zen doctrines - which does very little to nothing for me.

do i think people serve a different God than the one I know?
do i think some only serve self?
yes i do.

some preach LOVE & LIFE. others preach 'a force'. some preach the universal law doctrine.
it is not the same thing as GOD IS LOVE & GOD IS LIFE, to me.

someone once said to me, "No matter how real you think God is, it is only real because you make it real in your mind."
-that to me, pertaining to God & things pertaining to God, is a lie.-

I will say this Earl, out of them all, you are the only one I have met in my life that i would actually have a lengthy discussion on this & maybe someday we can do that, but i dont think I will do it in a group discussion.

[earl]

thanks for your thoughts, Bandit, (& your desire to dialogue). Beyond all the words, beliefs, and concepts, you & I have the same "God," as we all came from that God and continue to have our being in that God, (unless your beliefs tell you non-God-fearin' folk don't "have a God," but don't think you want to go there ), we just say hello to "Him" in different ways. Though, have to admit, don't get where you say you have the same God as Jesus & I don't-don't recall Jesus describing the dude much so how would we know? Have a good one, Earl

[earl]

Originally Posted by InLove

hey--never mind, Bandit--I think it is me that got confused. I kind of jumped in again where I did not need to be. I guess I thought earl was being misunderstood, and I think I was trying to help. Anyway-LOL--just doing what I do sometimes. Confusing others, as well as myself--carry on, you guys

InPeace,
InLove

Hey-i enjoyed "the love," InLove. Traditional Buddhists think I'm a heretic because I believe in "God" & traditional Christians think I'm a heretic because I don't think of that "God" according to their doctrines. As you probably know by now, I'm an "apophatic, Christian zennist;" i.e., dig below and through the rubble of too much doctrine and you find the open heart/open mind that all religious traditions ultimately point to-that's the place we're most "ourself" and most likely to hear the still, small voice of God. In our confusing tangle of belief systems, folks forget we really are all one and much more alike where it counts than we sometimes realize. God bless us all, may we achieve enlightenment together Lotsa love, Earl

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by earl

thanks for your thoughts, Bandit, (& your desire to dialogue). Beyond all the words, beliefs, and concepts, you & I have the same "God," as we all came from that God and continue to have our being in that God, (unless your beliefs tell you non-God-fearin' folk don't "have a God," but don't think you want to go there ), we just say hello to "Him" in different ways. Though, have to admit, don't get where you say you have the same God as Jesus & I don't-don't recall Jesus describing the dude much so how would we know? Have a good one, Earl

OK. i think Jesus described Him a lot, so that is how i get that.
i dont know- we (you&I) might have the same God. but i dont think that means everyone does. we can disagree there.