Progressive Christianity

[RubySera_Martin]

This thread is started in response to a desire for conversation around progressive Christianity in which alternative theology can be explored. This desire was expressed in the thread shinyhope posted on "what is your religion." I copied the relevant posts here, trusting this is okay with the authors. These posts will show readers the direction ideas have taken so far.

Originally Posted by flowperson

I am waiting and hoping for less fundamental and literal versions of Christianity to emerge that might begin to address the moral dilemmas that the world is increasingly ill-equipped to deal with these days.

Originally posted by RubySera Martin

Flow, this topic is near and dear to my heart. I am not sure where to discuss it. I guess I'll carry on here and if a new thread is needed we'll deal with it then.

QUESTION: How do you envision this new form of Christianity to look?

I've seen you on The Center for Progressive Christianity and I've read their pdf handbook. Do you envision something along that line?

Originally posted by flowperson:

Hmmm...yes to an extent. But I guess I'm looking for a wider brush to paint with, and that brush is going to have to eliminate exclusivity paradigms from whatever new version(s) that is/are developed.

I believe that TCPC has taken a good running start at that, but....(for the full text see Post 6 in "what is your religion).

Originally posted by Dondi

I would like to see a thread on progressive Christianity, perhaps in this Belief and Spirituality forum, since it may delve into non-orthodox areas.. Could you all start one like this?

Yep, Dondi, here it is. Full steam ahead!

[Dondi]

OK. I'll start.

When one grows up within a paradigm of one particular denomination or religion, it is hard to image that anything could be right but what one has been taught. We want to believe what our pastors, priests, rabbis, imans, or religious leaders have taught us is the "Gospel" truth.

For most of my life, I've had fundamentalist Baptist unbringing, and even now attend a Baptist church. It had been my unchanging belief that one must "accept Christ" by faith in order to gain eternal life. Any other method was simply invalid. You can't get their by works, you can't get there by your religion, and you can't get their by being good. Simple faith in Christ for salvation was all that was needed.

My view of other religions and denominations was that if one did not come to God through Christ, or added works to the process, as I believe some denomination to do, then your salvation was invalid. Jesus Christ as the Son of God came in the form of Man and lived perfectly and died sinless as the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. And He rose again the third day to prove His Power and Glory.

In my paradigm, therefore, anyone who wasn't a true Christian was lost, be it Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or Athiest. Even within Christianity, I viewed some of the denominations as lost: Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, Mormons and any others who seem to promote a "works-based" salvation. Salvation could not be earned, only accepted as a gift. So was my thinking.

Today, however, in a way I still hold salvation in Christ as paramount, but I see the term "in Christ" in a different light.

A couple of years ago, I began to re-evaluate what I believed, simply for the fact that I couldn't fathom billions of souls going to Hell simply for the fact that they grew up or raised in a different religion. I reasoned that since God placed them where they were, why should they be condemned because happened to believe differently. Many people in these religions, and denominations for that matter, have simply never had the opportunity to hear of salvation in Christ. And what about those who never even heard of Christ?

What I'd been always taught is that all those without Christ are going to Hell. There is no chance after death, no chance to repent, no chance to hear the gospel. Oh, well. Sorry. End of story.

But I just can't bring myself to believe in a God that would judge a person on the basis of the fact he happened to be born in the wrong religion.

As I was reading the book of Acts chapter 17, I came across this speech by the Apostle Paul:

"For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." - Acts 17:23-28

What really struck me was the words that I have highlighted above. That God has determined the times and habitation of all that are in the earth, not to set up a condition whereby they will end up lost, but on the contrary, "That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us;".

What freedom in thinking this has opened my mind to! Instead of thinking that being in a different culture or religious paradigm was a liability, I now see as an opportunity to seek the God. My only problem now is to figure out how Christ fits into all of this?

So I leave you all with that question to start this thread. What do you all think?

[Dondi]

Oops. Repeat post.

[flowperson]

Dondi:

Thinking of Jesus by the name that He most often called Himself would be the best start, IMHO. Once you begin to comprehend the true meaning of the name, "Son of Man", then you will begin to comprehend the meaning of Jesus' mission on earth. I believe that then you will also begin to understand just why the G-d of the OT continually referred to himself through the term, "I am a jealous G-d".

flow....

[wil]

Originally Posted by Dondi

A couple of years ago, I began to re-evaluate what I believed, simply for the fact that I couldn't fathom billions of souls going to Hell simply for the fact that they grew up or raised in a different religion. I reasoned that since God placed them where they were, why should they be condemned because happened to believe differently. Many people in these religions, and denominations for that matter, have simply never had the opportunity to hear of salvation in Christ. And what about those who never even heard of Christ?....What freedom in thinking this has opened my mind to! Instead of thinking that being in a different culture or religious paradigm was a liability, I now see as an opportunity to seek the God. My only problem now is to figure out how Christ fits into all of this?

So I leave you all with that question to start this thread. What do you all think?

I love it.

I believe in a G-d of Love, of Forgiveness....one who would not think with all that goes on in living this life that an understanding of our purpose and destiny and would be fullfilled in one lifetime and if not one would be condemened to some hell for eternity....

I don't believe in some Thor/Zeus anthropormorphic being but do see how it fit some paradigm of understanding thousands of years ago and accept their vision at that time...

I believe Jesus showed us the way by becoming the Christ, and walked the walk to allow us to walk ours....and showed us that we can find our own saviour within, and believe we do not have to ever have read the bible, seen the bible, heard of the bible or Jesus to do this. I think he showed us that we have to save ourcellves.

And yes, I think this understanding has made my experience of biblical scripture, my spirituality in Christianity, my faith in all that is, sooooo much deeper, sooo much more connected to spirit and humanity and Christ.

I believe it is wonderful that all of us think differently on this subject, and wonderful,

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by wil

I believe Jesus showed us the way by becoming the Christ, and walked the walk to allow us to walk ours....and showed us that we can find our own saviour within, and believe we do not have to ever have read the bible, seen the bible, heard of the bible or Jesus to do this. I think he showed us that we have to save ourcellves.

And yes, I think this understanding has made my experience of biblical scripture, my spirituality in Christianity, my faith in all that is, sooooo much deeper, sooo much more connected to spirit and humanity and Christ.

I believe it is wonderful that all of us think differently on this subject, and wonderful,

This a great post, wil. The way you describe your experience sounds familiar to me.

Is "ourcellves" a pun or a typo?

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Dondi:

Thinking of Jesus by the name that He most often called Himself would be the best start, IMHO. Once you begin to comprehend the true meaning of the name, "Son of Man", then you will begin to comprehend the meaning of Jesus' mission on earth. I believe that then you will also begin to understand just why the G-d of the OT continually referred to himself through the term, "I am a jealous G-d".

flow....

Hmmm.....you piqued my interest, flow. perhaps you can elaborate.

[flowperson]

Dondi:

IMHO, Jesus came to show us not what was, but what would be, and He did so through His life, works, and legacy. Since the realm He came from, the realm of the "word" which is timeless and eternal, that would not be a problem for such a visionary. I believe that we are observing what He predicted would come to pass, a changing of the world and the people in it.

He was a herald of a novel type of human existence, and today there are many others around such "newbies" who are jealous of their nature and abilities. The jealous ones are full of envy and wish to turn the clock back to the way things were before the changes began, but that cannot be done. It's all happening around us right now, IMO. That's what all the deception, lies, and conflict are about I believe.

flow....

[RubySera_Martin]

Hi Folks,

Sorry I haven't been around. This is probably not a really good time to respond because I've got a blinding migraine throbbing away in my top story. Just wanted folks to know I haven't forsaken this baby and that I'm delighted to see some real conversation going on. See ya later.

Ruby

[wil]

Healing ourcellves, affecting ourcellves, not a typo or a pun, a word which to me describes the actual event more fully.

As flow indicated in the power of the word...and behind the word is thought...and behind the thought is intention....and behind the intention is the vibration.... how we maintain our vibration is an indication of what our intention, which provides thought, which is heard in our words...and manifested in our life....that little mustard seed...the prodigal's father...Joseph...incredible potential getting ourcellves into alignment...

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by wil

Healing ourcellves, affecting ourcellves, not a typo or a pun, a word which to me describes the actual event more fully.

As flow indicated in the power of the word...and behind the word is thought...and behind the thought is intention....and behind the intention is the vibration.... how we maintain our vibration is an indication of what our intention, which provides thought, which is heard in our words...and manifested in our life....that little mustard seed...the prodigal's father...Joseph...incredible potential getting ourcellves into alignment...

Just one little thing and then I think I'll hit the sack for a bit. What do you mean by "ourcellves"? and how is it pronounced?

[wil]

Ourcellves...pronounced ourselves...and to me is an indication of as within so without....when you squeeze an orange you get orange juice...

Case in point, Alcohol released what Mel Gibson denied repeatedly over and over during and after his creation of 'The Passion', what was in his cells was exposed, what was in his internal being came out when his guard was released by alcohol.

We are this human being, we are ourselves composed of our cells....what is innate in our being will eventually come out, what we think most often, what we believe most strongly will be created in our lives, will become manifest as time goes on and our focus stays strong....we can hide anyway we want to, we can say anything we want to but what is going on in ourcellves will eventually show thru.

Most of us get hung up on the material, on gain, on looking good, on being percieved to be worthy...or we get hung up on not being worthy, on others perceptions, on our percieved inadequacy...and those thoughts infect our cells...hence ourcellves.

Jesus realized the definition of namaste, he realized that G-d is in all, that the Christ is available to all, and through the development of Christ completely throughout his self, in every one of his cells eminating spirit, he could become one with the father...Son of G-d, Son of Man, G-d incarnate on earth.

We are all expressions of G-d, and as we realize our Christ nature in ourcellves we grow exponentially, we understand our brotherhood with one another....
be the change you want to see-Ghandi...

you know you are enlightened when everyone you see you see as enlightened-Dali Lama....

so I go to the mall to see how far I have to go-Butch (my minister)

[Dondi]

I've been thinking about the words of Jesus in John 14:6:

"...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

legei autw [o] ihsouV, egw eimi h odoV kai h alhqeia kai h zwh: oudeiV ercetai proV ton patera ei mh di emou.

Many have used this verse to prove the exclusivity of the Christian faith. I'd admit that it seems like one cannot get around it. But in a closer observation of the verse, one could see a three-fold path: the Way, the Truth, the Life.

Way - hodos {hod-os'}
1) properly

a) a way
1) a travelled way, road
b) a travellers way, journey, travelling
2) metaph.
a) a course of conduct b) a way (i.e. manner) of thinking, feeling, deciding

Truth - aletheia {al-ay'-thi-a}

1) objectively

a) what is true in any matter under consideration
1) truly, in truth, according to truth
2) of a truth, in reality, in fact, certainly
b) what is true in things appertaining to God and the duties of man, moral and religious truth
1) in the greatest latitude
2) the true notions of God which are open to human reason without his supernatural intervention
c) the truth as taught in the Christian religion, respecting God and the execution of his purposes through Christ, and respecting the duties of man, opposing alike to the superstitions of the Gentiles and the inventions of the Jews, and the corrupt opinions and precepts of false teachers even among Christians
2) subjectively
a) truth as a personal excellence 1) that candour of mind which is free from affection, pretence, simulation, falsehood, deceit


Life - zoe {dzo-ay'}


1) life
a) the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate
b) every living soul
2) life
a) of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on human nature b) life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous, devoted to God, blessed, in the portion even in this world of those who put their trust in Christ, but after the resurrection to be consummated by new accessions (among them a more perfect body), and to last for ever.
For Synonyms see entry 5821

When we look at the Strong's definitions for each of these terms, we have broadened out perspective haven't we.

What if we have a choice between these three? And what if they each represent Christ in a different aspect of salvation?

Your thoughts?

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by wil

you know you are enlightened when everyone you see you see as enlightened-Dali Lama....

so I go to the mall to see how far I have to go-Butch (my minister)

Yeah . . . I have my good days and I have my bad days.

[flowperson]

wil:

Thank you so much for your priceless thoughts.

Ruby:

Take care of your self and return soon. You are always able to make us think positively.

Flow....