Progressive Christianity

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by wil

. We don't need the mods of the literal interpretations jumping into every thread every where we go and condemning thought and stalling discussion.

Looks like Quahom got the message and isn't posting here anymore. I'm sure if he'd been going to respond he would have done so by now. So it should be "safe" to continue our discussion.

Just before the disruption we had been talking about the verse where Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but by me."

Dondi had raised the following question:

What if we have a choice between these three? And what if they each represent Christ in a different aspect of salvation?

Your thoughts?

Wil and I presented two different ways in which perhaps we don't have to choose but that all three go together. Wil suggested the mystical union of the father and son and Christian. He also used the analogy of the internet and all of us being part of it. I posited the idea that the living out of the three is the natural outcome of being true to what one was born to be.

Any other questions, thoughts, or comments on this verse? Or perhaps on some other aspect of progressive Christianity? I loved to see people posting so actively and sharing from the heart.

I got the idea that this is a topic that really needs airing. Let's not be stopped by one disruption. Of course, perhaps everybody said everything they have to say. In that case, we can put the topic to bed for now.

Ruby

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Looks like Quahom got the message and isn't posting here anymore. I'm sure if he'd been going to respond he would have done so by now. So it should be "safe" to continue our discussion.

Just before the disruption we had been talking about the verse where Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but by me."

Dondi had raised the following question:

What if we have a choice between these three? And what if they each represent Christ in a different aspect of salvation?

Your thoughts?

Wil and I presented two different ways in which perhaps we don't have to choose but that all three go together. Wil suggested the mystical union of the father and son and Christian. He also used the analogy of the internet and all of us being part of it. I posited the idea that the living out of the three is the natural outcome of being true to what one was born to be.

Any other questions, thoughts, or comments on this verse? Or perhaps on some other aspect of progressive Christianity? I loved to see people posting so actively and sharing from the heart.

I got the idea that this is a topic that really needs airing. Let's not be stopped by one disruption. Of course, perhaps everybody said everything they have to say. In that case, we can put the topic to bed for now.

Ruby

Going back to my original premise, I'd like to look at each individually:

The Way - hodos {hod-os'}

Look at Jesus's ministry: how He lived, the compassion He demonstrated in healing the sick, feeding the poor, the mercy He demonstrated. In Matthew 25, He explains the difference between true and false followers in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. Those who fed the poor, gave drink to the thirsty, visited the sick and imprisoned, were the ones allowed into the Kingdom, for doing these things are the same as doing it to Him. The only difference between the sheep and the goats is what they did or didn't do.

The Truth - aletheia {al-ay'-thi-a}

Jesus is called the Word. As Jesus prayed in John 17, He prayed to the Father, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." Jesus imparted His teachings, His words to the disciples and had them spread His word to the scattered towns in Israel. In John 6:63, Jesus explains, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." And in John 15:3, Jesus tells the disciples, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."

Life - zoe {dzo-ay'}

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" - John 11:25

Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection demonstrated the power of God to raise us up to new life by the Spirit of God:

"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." - Romans 8:11

I agree that it is important to understand all three aspects: the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

But is it possible that if someone was living the Way, for example, that is being compassionate to one's neighbor, etc, that he/she would in essence be living the life of Christ and thus be granted entrance into the Kingdom as indicated in Matthew 25. Would that be enough, assuming a lack of knowledge on the other two aspects of John 14:6?

[RubySera_Martin]

Dondi, thank you for starting up discussion again.

I like how you summarized each of the three different items this time. I was not quite able to get your meaning from the dictionary definitions earlier. Here is how I now see each item in a nutshell:

The Way=good works of material/physical compassion
The Truth=Jesus' teachings
Life=vitality, the power of God, enthusiasm, joy of the Lord

Tell me if I'm still not getting your meaning.

You ask:

But is it possible that if someone was living the Way, for example, that is being compassionate to one's neighbor, etc, that he/she would in essence be living the life of Christ and thus be granted entrance into the Kingdom as indicated in Matthew 25. Would that be enough, assuming a lack of knowledge on the other two aspects of John 14:6?

What I'm saying here is based on my "nutshell" understanding as listed above. I think the answer is yes to some extent. My hesitance to giving a full yes is that I think the three overlap so much as to make it impossible to live one and not the other two.

The New Testament references to the gifts of the spirit and how these are unevenly distributed i.e. some are teachers, some have some other calling, etc. also comes to mind. Some people are called to serve as nurses or perhaps in charity organizations that focus on basic survival needs of food, clothing, and shelter.

Others are called primarily to preach Jesus' teachings, which might be the "truth" aspect. But I don't know how to fit in the "life" aspect as a solitary item--maybe as an enthusiasm for life regardless of what station one finds oneself in. That might include virtues like "joy in the Lord."

I think the person who is preaching may also have enthusiasm and as time allows help the poor. I think the person who focuses on physical needs also needs spiritual sustenance and enthusiasm for life. The person who is filled with enthusiasm or the joy of the Lord hopefully also participates in his or her community in some practical way and know the teachings of Jesus.

That's the best I can make of it at the moment. I look forward to the contributions of others.

Ruby

[Dondi]

Yes, you pretty much have grasped what I was getting at. Plus that Life includes the power to resurrect. And your right, there is some overlap.

I was mainly speaking in terms of salvation, rather than exhibiting gifts of the Spirit, which is given after one is saved.

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." - John 1:7

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." - Romans 12:3

"...For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:..." Luke 12:48

Would it not be right for God to judge according to the light that has been given to someone in this life? The angle I'm presenting here is that if someone is doing the will of God through service to the best of his/her knowledge, but lacks other aspects of the Way, Truth, and Life, that God will consider this.

Many denominations stress salvation by grace, others by grace through sacraments, rituals, and works, and still others through methodology, etc. But each of these ways seems to have their merits which can fall on any or all of these three aspects of Jesus. So in a sense, Christ can be accessed in a number of means. The point is that one's heart is geared toward God. and I think many debates come out of a misunderstanding that God is tied to one particular means. But God is able can work in the heart where the person is. God can multitask.

[RubySera_Martin]

Dondi, I love this--God can multi-task.

I keep feeling like I should apologize for participating in this topic because my views are so radical. I guess I won't apologize because it seems people in this thread like when I participate but I do think it is ethical that I make my position clear so readers have something by which to evaluate my ideas.

Like I've stated in that long post, I do not beleive that the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven or salvation are in some future place and time. I believe they are right here and now in this life. For a quick summary of my feelings on this, see Post 4 in the thread "Post-Theist Christianity" (I'm not exactly sure of the title but it's something like that). I don't have time to really study it right now but I feel Post 4 in that thread is something I may be able to identify with.

Dondi said:

Would it not be right for God to judge according to the light that has been given to someone in this life? The angle I'm presenting here is that if someone is doing the will of God through service to the best of his/her knowledge, but lacks other aspects of the Way, Truth, and Life, that God will consider this.

This is basically what I was taught in the church where I grew up. I most definitely believe it. Let me comment on your opening: Would it not be right for God...

I have very mixed feelings about such statements. It is the way my reasoning goes but then I ask myself: What is going on here? Is God subject to some law humans can think up? If I have enough insight to dole out this kind of justice (were I the ruler of the universe; can't attain idealistic goals as a human) and God is supposed to be so much bigger and stronger than I a mere human, then of course God will be this merciful. PLUS lots more.

So that's my take on it. Others may think differently.

[wil]

What does G-d care?

I believe G-d does not judge us, in any way shape or form. G-d sees us as healthy and whole and made in the image...

G-d doesn't see our sin, this is us beating up on ourselves, it is that little valve that was put in us to actually care. Some think some folks don't have it, it appears like that at moments, lifetimes even...

I believe we are not punished for our sins but by them. This is all part and parcel of our growth curve, how much time, how many lifetimes it takes us to understand that is upto us....gotta love free will.

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by wil

gotta love free will.

what a twist on this great virtue we've dreamed up--I mean, we invented free will so we could do as we like, right???

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by wil

What does G-d care ?...
I believe we are not punished for our sins but by them. ....gotta love free will.

I decided to step into the candy store !!! At least it smells great in here !

I don't really know, but I am of the opinion that G-d does care over the long term, otherwise nature would not be so proficient at repairing herself after she is damaged. However Sh/He (G-d) is perfectly willing to only set things in the universe into motion and let free will and choice wreak their blessings and damages upon us all over the flows of time.

The only problem with current conditions is that technological superiority, power, and control in the hands of the few ( read "plutocracy" here) can wreak horrible damage upon the welfare of the many if the few are egregious sinners...or to paraphrase what you said wil..."the wages of sin are death". Or as the Beatles taught us, "Instant karma's gonna getcha".

flow....

[wil]

Did we invent it? Can we invent anything? Or is it a combination of us assembling that which is already in the ethers?

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by wil

Did we invent it? Can we invent anything? Or is it a combination of us assembling that which is already in the ethers?

I dunno. It's not something I grew up knowing about. It's not in the Bible. But it's supposed to be GOOD! That's the catch. The way you said it, it seems it can take all etenity for us to learn something just because we have the freedom to refuse to learn. Now if we were programmed like the animals are we wouldn't need that much time.

So here we are--stuck with free will and all its blessings...and...did I hear "curse"??? That's kinda what it seems like--after all eternity is an awful long time...At least, it used to be back when I was calculating whether or not I could stand it in case I didn't measure up. And measuring up back when I was thirteen seemed impossible.

It still is, depending whose standard I choose to measure up to. But there you've got it--freewill in its positive form. Yay!!!

[Dondi]

Ah, freewill. Did it start in the Garden? Is the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil our learning playground? (Mind you, some children get hurt if they are not careful. Watch out for snakes!)

We started with only one commandment. How did we end up with 613?

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Ah, freewill. Did it start in the Garden? Is the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil our learning playground? (Mind you, some children get hurt if they are not careful. Watch out for snakes!)

We started with only one commandment. How did we end up with 613?

Maybe my count is off, but aren't we back to just one (or two depending on how you parse a certain sentence)?

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

Maybe my count is off, but aren't we back to just one (or two depending on how you parse a certain sentence)?

AdD,
That was certainly my last count! I parse it One so it is easier to remember.

JM

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

Maybe my count is off, but aren't we back to just one (or two depending on how you parse a certain sentence)?

Well, yeah, your right. But then all the Law and Prophets hang on those two. (I prefer two - I believe they compliment each other).

But I was referring to the learning experience. Even individually, we find that Law in ourselves. And we find ourselves adding to it everytime we break one. Our free will eventually finds a free hell.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Well, yeah, your right. But then all the Law and Prophets hang on those two. (I prefer two - I believe they compliment each other).

But I was referring to the learning experience. Even individually, we find that Law in ourselves. And we find ourselves adding to it everytime we break one. Our free will eventually finds a free hell.

Our free will eventually builds a free hell.

The secret is understanding how that one commandment that's left is the same as the one we started with. Get that and you've truly got a "Get Out of Hell, Free" card.