Posting on Sabbath

[Susanna]

Originally Posted by wil

Although the Orthodox don't consider the Conservative observant who don't consider the Reformed observant who don't consider the Reconstructionist observant who don't consider the Renewal observant...but even the liberal Rabbi will discuss ways to be more observant...

Ha I liked what you wrote, everybody saying that everybody else's methods are not as good as theirs, although I am with the Orthodox community (more relaxed Orthodox and a very tiny community), I attend Reform services aswell, and out of the two communities, the Reform is stricter over Shabbat, as some members in my Orthodox community often work and even go shopping on Shabbat, yet, when I attend the Reform services, my Rabbi would not allow anyone to have a writing implement in their hand (if someone wanted to jot down someone's e-mail or phone number that is).

[dauer]

but when someone wants to know why a Judaism discussion forum has hardly anyone around during Shabbat, my answer can only be that of, those who are observant of Shabbat, will not work, generate electricity etc, so would not be using their computer.

And my response would be that your statement is in error. It depends on whose yardstick you use. For example for some people they have a nice meal friday night, open up a bottle of wine, and try not to do anything like taxes, but will watch tv, use the computer, or anything else they see as shabbosdik, and so by the yardstick they use they are shomer shabbos. You are using a particular yardstick, which speaks to only a fraction of the Jewish community. But I think you acknowledge that pretty much in your response to wil.

[Susanna]

Originally Posted by dauer

And my response would be that your statement is in error. It depends on whose yardstick you use. For example for some people they have a nice meal friday night, open up a bottle of wine, and try not to do anything like taxes, but will watch tv, use the computer, or anything else they see as shabbosdik, and so by the yardstick they use they are shomer shabbos. You are using a particular yardstick, which speaks to only a fraction of the Jewish community. But I think you acknowledge that pretty much in your response to wil.

Like I said before, when someone asks why there are no posters in here on Shabbat, then it is most likely that people are observing Shabbat, now, it has nothing to do with "yardsticks", I think you will find, that I don't do petty measurements, people can please themselves. Now, if people want to use their computers or go out shopping or work on Shabbat, that's up to them, but you see, if someone was to come up to me and say: "I tried to get my Jewish friends to come shopping with me on Saturday, but they said that it is Shabbat and cannot go shopping", what do you think I would say to them? "oh, hang on a minute, let's get my measuring stick out and see what I can measure here".

Actually, I would probably say: "well, in Judaism, we observe Shabbat as our day of rest, we refrain from shopping and working and like to spend time with our families or even in prayer or at the Synagogue, so, yes, you would probably find it hard to get your Jewish friends to come shopping with you".

But, hey, like I have stated before, if you read my initial post: "most of us Jews who are observant, will not be on our computers on Shabbat". Now, does this particular statement read as: "ALL of us observant Jews will not be in here on Shabbat" or does this statement read as, "most of us who are observant?"

Now, when I wrote, most of us who are observant, this does not mean that every single one of us is observant, as a Worldwide view, many Jews will not enter onto their computers in discussion forums on Shabbat, maybe there are those who will go online to do online Torah study, and maybe there are many who just use their computers for whatever?

I think, you will find that when I stated, things like "generating electricity etc", I was implying that, in general use of electrical items to create work. Yes, I know people have to cook and prepare their meals, but as an overall statement, I was explaining about the day being a day of rest.

Are you measuring me, with your yardstick? waiting for me to "slip up" perhaps

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Susanna

Most of us Jews who are observant will not be on our computers on Shabbat, so this is why you might have difficulty in finding someone to interact with on this site, but there are probably other sites in which Torah study is done online interactively, especially if you live so far from the Jewish community that you can't make regular trips to Shul. If I can't make the trip on Shabbat for the morning service, I will spend the day in what I would call, my "home Shabbat service".

Thank you Susanna for your wonderful replies!

To clarify, I asked the question to avoid offensive behavior on my part.

Best regards,
Mark

[bananabrain]

susanna - nobody's having a go. dauer, tush and fie mate, play nicely or i'll put you in herem.

i think the two of you are at cross-purposes. susanna is saying "observant" in the sense of what observant behaviour traditionally looks like, whereas dauer is saying "observant" in terms of the kavannah or inner intention, whereas it may be that to the unsophisticated observer the halakhah is being violated. i think all that i would say to dauer is that i think if the "psycho-halakhic process" results in what looks to most people like a transgression of the laws of Shabbat, you have an uphill struggle in front of you, for reasons of ma'arat 'ayeen if nothing else, no matter how much i may be in sympathy with your process and objectives.

susanna, baruch ha-ba.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[dauer]

But, hey, like I have stated before, if you read my initial post: "most of us Jews who are observant, will not be on our computers on Shabbat". Now, does this particular statement read as: "ALL of us observant Jews will not be in here on Shabbat" or does this statement read as, "most of us who are observant?"

And the problem I have is with your use of the word "most." It is only a segment of the observant Jewish population. And as I said previously, there are many who do not use your yardstick to measure their level of observance, and outside of it there are many who are observant without following the same rules, or following them in the same way you do. It is not by any means general principles for the totality of Judaism to say "This isn't what we do." It's not what you and your community do.

Are you measuring me, with your yardstick? waiting for me to "slip up" perhaps

Not at all. I am simply making sure that Judaism is represented in a way that speaks to its diversity, all of the colors and flavors, rather than one that focuses on one particular type of Judaism. If you had said "many Jews" I would not have said anything, but "most" implies something else.

dauer, tush and fie mate, play nicely or i'll put you in herem.

lol. Okay I understand all of that except that UK-ese. Looking it up though... Okay, no help from google. What's tush and fie mean?

i think the two of you are at cross-purposes. susanna is saying "observant" in the sense of what observant behaviour traditionally looks like, whereas dauer is saying "observant" in terms of the kavannah or inner intention, whereas it may be that to the unsophisticated observer the halakhah is being violated.

Actually, you're a little off on my motivation. I am speaking to all of the beautiful shomer shabbos folk who don't accept halachah, or don't accept halachah on Orthodoxy's terms, for example the Reform Jew who likes to listen to music on Shabbat, or the Conservative Jew who likes to drive, or folks who play stringed instruments on Shabbos, in shul (I've even seen a stringed instrument in a Conservative shul on Yom Kippur.) Psycho-halachic process of course plays more of a factor on my own thinking about how I do shabbos, but it's a much larger issue I'm addressing of misrepresentation of klal yisrael.

i think all that i would say to dauer is that i think if the "psycho-halakhic process" results in what looks to most people like a transgression of the laws of Shabbat,

Not to most, to those caught up in the very particular lens of Orthodoxy.

you have an uphill struggle in front of you, for reasons of ma'arat 'ayeen if nothing else,

I don't think that factors into it at all. Rather imo, acting in ways that honor shabbos while breaking with halachah sets a positive example for how to help Judaism develop further.

Dauer

[bananabrain]

acting in ways that honor shabbos while breaking with halachah sets a positive example for how to help Judaism develop further

*sigh*. i don't think i can agree with this, really. you can't change stuff whilst marginalising those who would find this problematic. all that will do is break klal yisrael further. i get your point, but i find it hard to accept the concept of 'breaking halakhah to honour Shabbat', particularly if it involves glossing over so many other important things about the 39 melachot, which is what i think you're doing. don't forget that susanna's from the uk and here the orthodox are a majority, not a minority as they are in the us - so your talking about a "segment" does not chime with the british experience.

"tush and fie" is a shakespearian "tut, tut".

b'shalom

bananabrain

[dauer]

BB,

*sigh*. i don't think i can agree with this, really.

It's not something I expected you would agree with at all.

you can't change stuff whilst marginalising those who would find this problematic.

For me, it's really no different than marginalizing those who are making change, or forcing them to cowtoe to conservatives as so often is sadly the case in Israel. I think there's plenty of room in the Jewish community for diversity, and no reason we can't all practice in our own way.

Perhaps breaking is the wrong word, given my understanding, and transforming would work better. But either way it's the same thing and I don't expect us to see eye to eye at all on it.

particularly if it involves glossing over so many other important things about the 39 melachot, which is what i think you're doing.

Well, I wouldn't say exactly glossing over. Rather looking for the root of the melachot and how it fits for you, and then making that your halachah. This imo of course requires getting to know the melachot, and in many cases may very will reflect the majority of them, or even all of them, just perhaps when taken from the avot melachah and not to their delineations and interpretations. A very successful example imo of this type of work is Art Green's suggestions for guidelines for shabbos:

MyJewishLearning.com - Daily Life: Ten Pathways to a New Shabbat

And an overview of different things Jews have done including Orthodox Jews that break with the melachot or other mitzvot but honor shabbos in their own way can be found here:

MyJewishLearning.com - Daily Life: Many Ways to Celebrate Shabbat

don't forget that susanna's from the uk and here the orthodox are a majority, not a minority as they are in the us - so your talking about a "segment" does not chime with the british experience.

Yes, I am well aware, however a statement such as "most" speaks to a totality, and not to a particular country of residence. If there was the disclaimer, "Most Jews in the UK" then I also would have said nothing. If there was the disclaimer, "in my experience" I would have also said nothing.

Dauer

[pohaikawahine]

I've been reading about "hitbodedut" and also "gemilut hasadim" ....and I read that "on three things does the existence of the world depend: Torah, avodah, and gemilut hasadim' (Shimon the Just declared in the opening lines of Pirkei Avot (1:2) .... how important is observing sabbath to the above ... would posting on sabbath diminish any of the above? aloha nui, poh

[dauer]

poh,

It would depend on one's definition of Torah, and possibly one's definition of avodah too. In its original context, I can only imagine Torah was meant to include the mitzvot written in the Torah as well as the new system that was developing in the mishna. However, that does not necessarily extend to the way that system has been applied by the Orthodox or any other community today, or even to the gemara for that matter. It really does, imo, leave us at the same place we started, because Torah could really be interpreted as referring more to the mitzvot as understood in light of the mishna, or in light of a specific progression from the mishna, or as something more general, depending on the reader. We could even go further in our interpreting and ask what Torah represented for R. Shimon. Did it represent right-action? Being a loving, caring individual? Obedience to God? Unchangeable Divine Writ? All of these? Something else? And then we might ask if meeting one or all of these ideals would also qualify. But it's still a matter of interpretation that does not leave one answer that works for everyone.

Dauer

[pohaikawahine]

aloha nui dauer .... your answer was very helpful to me .... since I am still learning the history of judiasm, the question of what came first "the chicken or the egg" still causes me confusion .... I was trying to understand the reasons for observance of the mitzvot (ta'amei ha-mitzvot) (in the JPS Guide to Jewish Tradition) "are they to be obeyed merely because they represent the will of God or because they possess some intrinsic meaning designed to spiritually improve the person who performs them, or for both reasons?" "some have argued that we should not search for reasons for the mitzvot because they transcend our understanding, while others have maintained that every effort should be made to discover their underlying meanings." so I guess the arguments and discussions are somewhat circular and pass through the biblical period, talmudic period, medieval period, unto today in our multifaceted world .... I think that if each of us, in our own ways, show love of the mitzvah and joy in performing mitzvot and good intent they will be practiced in different ways but the end result will be the same .... making this a better world by the value of "gemilut hasadim" (loving kindness). Mahalo nui, poh

[Faithfulservant]

This is very familiar.. lol