Possession, personal demons

[cavalier]

My wife is a big fan of scary movies, and we've been watching a few recently. I can't say that I'm a big fan. Though ok watching them, later on when I'm in the shower or trying to sleep, my mind wanders. Something that I've noticed is that I get more scared at those times when there something in my life which is putting me on edge, or making me worry.
This, coupled with the fact that a few of the movies we've seen have dealt with demon possession, has made me wonder about the nature of possession. Are possessions the result of external or internal (anger, shyness, guilt...) demons, or a combination of the two?
Any thoughts?

[seattlegal]

In that context, I would say it depends upon your perception of Self and Other. :shrug:

[Thomas]

Hi Cavalier –

The Greek tradition has a far more evolved idea in this area than I think the Latin holds, which is more susceptible to the idea of the kind of 'possession' that figures in the movies.

The Greeks talk of logismoi – thoughts – in this regard are close to a Zen idea of a heart 'purified of all thoughts' in the sense that one simply acts right, does the right thing without having to think about it. Similarly, a pure heart will have no 'impure' or disordered thoughts.

Logismoi can originate from within ... the chain of thoughts you suddenly realise you've been thinking when trying to meditate, for example, or the extraneous thoughts that carry you away from the matter at hand, whatever it may be ... daydreams are logismoi.

Logismoi do not necessarily originate from us, but can be external, and as like goes to like, attach themselves ... however external logismoi can be darker than the thought to which it attaches (a progression along the same trajectory, as it were) or more powerful, because 'amplified' by the number of people who's thought processess feed into it ... the idea of the gorgon fits here ...

Here then we get into thought 'banks' as it were ...

The attachment of images to such thoughts is one explanation of demonic forms, especially the fabulous creatures like gryphons, basilisks, etc.

However, far more dangerous and damaging are those harmless little 'chains of thought' which are actually more effective in diverting our attention from 'the one thing needful'.

There was a fair discussion of this on:
Essence and egregore 1

It's a huge area of study.

Thomas

[Thomas]

A 'nice' story, about personal demons:

The Devil sent three imps to torment a holy hermit living in the desert. After days of travail, they were obliged to admit defeat, and were called to report to the boss, and explain their failure.
"It's hopeless," one said, "women, power, wealth ... he's impervious to them all!"
"Of course he is, you idiots! Go back. Disguise yourselves as pilgrims, and arrange to be in sight as evening falls. He will invite you to supper. Accept, but be polite and well behaved. Stay the night, but do not trouble his dreams. In the morning, pack up and be ready to go, but do not disturb him at prayer. Then, as you leave, you might mention that you heard that his brother has been made Bishop of Alexandria ... that should do it."

Thomas

[cyberpi]

I noticed it probably the most in my children that a lot of demons or 'unclean spirits', if you will, arrive in school in the interactions with peers. You can really see the stress when they bring it home for the first time. Sometimes you have to ignore all the symptoms and just ask, "How was your day at school"... then you will learn about the real source of trouble. Not a person per-se, but with an interaction. Of course thats the early years, when they get older if barriers have been developed then it could be a nightmare. I recall in the movie oddly named, "True Lies": "Yeah, but you're not her parents, anymore, you and Helen. Her parents are Axl Rose and Madonna. The five minutes you spend a day with her can't compete with that kind of constant bombardment. You're outgunned, Daddyo." Avoiding the 'demons' doesn't work, but helping discover the real source and modus operandi is a worthy quest.

Originally Posted by Thomas

A 'nice' story, about personal demons:

The Devil sent three imps to torment a holy hermit living in the desert. After days of travail, they were obliged to admit defeat, and were called to report to the boss, and explain their failure.
"It's hopeless," one said, "women, power, wealth ... he's impervious to them all!"
"Of course he is, you idiots! Go back. Disguise yourselves as pilgrims, and arrange to be in sight as evening falls. He will invite you to supper. Accept, but be polite and well behaved. Stay the night, but do not trouble his dreams. In the morning, pack up and be ready to go, but do not disturb him at prayer. Then, as you leave, you might mention that you heard that his brother has been made Bishop of Alexandria ... that should do it."

Thomas

LoL... well placed.

[cavalier]

Hey Thomas
Thanks, I think I understand, "think" being the operative word though.
Please correct me if you think I've gone wrong in any of the following.

What you wrote here made me think of Lady MacBeth. That the way we attract logismoi is a more passive form of her calling on "you spirits that do tend on mortal thoughts."
Later on reading your link on essence and egregore, it seemed that such "spirits" would be essences, rather than presences.
My understanding of what you wrote in that post is that the logismoi and egregore operate under a "snowball effect" in that they build upon themselves.
They are also fed by, and feed off successive imaginations, events, taboos...

It's interesting for me, married to a Taiwanese woman and living in a Chinese culture where parents still tell their children ghost stories as a tool of discipline. One story goes that if children don't go to sleep an old lady called Hoogoopuo (transliteration) will cut off their fingers and eat them.
Suffice it to say that my wife does not still believe in Hoogoopuo, but she, along with a great many Taiwanese people, has a real fear of ghosts. Perhaps it's a consequence of ancestor worship, and the very Chinese belief, especially during "Ghost month" when the gates of hell are thrown open for a month, that ghosts desire to feed off the living.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I noticed it probably the most in my children that a lot of demons or 'unclean spirits', if you will, arrive in school in the interactions with peers. You can really see the stress when they bring it home for the first time. Sometimes you have to ignore all the symptoms and just ask, "How was your day at school"... then you will learn about the real source of trouble. Not a person per-se, but with an interaction. Of course thats the early years, when they get older if barriers have been developed then it could be a nightmare. I recall in the movie oddly named, "True Lies": "Yeah, but you're not her parents, anymore, you and Helen. Her parents are Axl Rose and Madonna. The five minutes you spend a day with her can't compete with that kind of constant bombardment. You're outgunned, Daddyo." Avoiding the 'demons' doesn't work, but helping discover the real source and modus operandi is a worthy quest.

I wonder if you could give an example

[Thomas]

Hi Cavalier:

What you wrote here made me think of Lady MacBeth. That the way we attract logismoi is a more passive form of her calling on "you spirits that do tend on mortal thoughts."
Yes, that's a good example. One could say that she was loyal to her husband, and ambitious for him, but then ambition got the better part ... I doubt she ever intended to grow up and murder her king ... but you start down a road, and you can't see the destination, nor the consequences of small, innocuous little things...

Later on reading your link on essence and egregore, it seemed that such "spirits" would be essences, rather than presences.
Gets very involved, as both terms are used synonymously.

My understanding of what you wrote in that post is that the logismoi and egregore operate under a "snowball effect" in that they build upon themselves.
Ask a policeman about 'mob mentality' ...

They are also fed by, and feed off successive imaginations, events, taboos...
Yep, or are clothed by them ... imaginings etc, clothe and give form to a fear that is more frightening because it is unknown ...

It's interesting for me, married to a Taiwanese woman and living in a Chinese culture where parents still tell their children ghost stories as a tool of discipline. One story goes that if children don't go to sleep an old lady called Hoogoopuo (transliteration) will cut off their fingers and eat them.
Suffice it to say that my wife does not still believe in Hoogoopuo, but she, along with a great many Taiwanese people, has a real fear of ghosts. Perhaps it's a consequence of ancestor worship, and the very Chinese belief, especially during "Ghost month" when the gates of hell are thrown open for a month, that ghosts desire to feed off the living.
Again, one can 'reason' this as the unknown made known ... but such tales crop up in all cultures ... so whilst we might view their fears as irrational, there are very rational grounds to question whether puree materialism and determinism of western culture is all that there is...

... and we are victims too ... because we are conditioned by the culture we live in ... consider how much we spend on cosmetics, etc ... that's hardly rational.

Thomas

[cavalier]

Hey Thomas
Thanks for the feedback

Originally Posted by Thomas

It's interesting for me, married to a Taiwanese woman and living in a Chinese culture where parents still tell their children ghost stories as a tool of discipline. One story goes that if children don't go to sleep an old lady called Hoogoopuo (transliteration) will cut off their fingers and eat them.
Suffice it to say that my wife does not still believe in Hoogoopuo, but she, along with a great many Taiwanese people, has a real fear of ghosts. Perhaps it's a consequence of ancestor worship, and the very Chinese belief, especially during "Ghost month" when the gates of hell are thrown open for a month, that ghosts desire to feed off the living.
Again, one can 'reason' this as the unknown made known ... but such tales crop up in all cultures ... so whilst we might view their fears as irrational, there are very rational grounds to question whether puree materialism and determinism of western culture is all that there is...

Indeed, I hope I did not give the impression that this was my view.

Thanks again for your comments.