Plots

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Bandit,

In your opinion, who decides what the plot of the story is?

Is it the author? How can we ever really know what the author intended?(especially if the author is dead!)

Is it the reader? In which case, which reader is it? You? Me? what if we disagree?

The idea that the Author's intention is either known or relavent is known as the Intentional Fallacy.

After all, a book is just dried sheets of stained wood-pulp until you read it. It only means anything in your mind.

Peace
ATF

the author. the writer gives the plot. generally you can find the plot on the back of the book or in the foreward.
when you watch something on televison or in a movie, they will give you previews prior of the important parts that include the plot.
the plot could include fallacy.

i am not sure if intentional fallacy for the plot is correct. i am still thinking on that.

if the writer is dead, the plot still does not change. IMO

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

There are different types of books, and different types of plots. If someone writes an account of Amundsen's journey to the South Pole, it's quite different than a fictional account of a man's journey to find his parents and what he learns along the way. There are textbooks, biographies, autobiographies, fiction, poetry. Each discusses a reality, but in different ways.

I think that the Bible is more like poetry. The subject being treated is a real experience, but in large part it is purposely being conveyed in metaphorical and/or sacred language.

2 c,
lunamoth

that is how i see it. many different types of plots & discussed in different ways. in fiction the plot is not a true account, but it could be true to someones experience & they can relate from those events.
a text book would be interesting to examine the plot


in science & in the the lab, i believe there is also something known as a plot- as in the layout.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Bandit, you'll need to explain to me why you've posted a question about the plot of the novel "Snow Dogs" on the Comparative Religion "Comparative Studies" board - when you are not looking for a response that has anything to do with religion or metaphor.

it does not need to be about snow dogs. that is a simple starter example.

i just did a search here on this subject & i sincerly feel it is a good topic. there is nothing on this board that discusses what a plot is. considering that this site discusses many different texts & reading material that would include history, poetry, sacred, non fiction...

i did not know every thread has to be strictly about religion.

our life also has plot.

[Bandit]

plot:
1. the structure of the action of a story. Note: In conventional stories, plot has three main parts: rising action, climax, and falling action leading to a resolution or denouement. 2. to so structure the action of a story. 3. a pattern of related episodes.
The sequence of events in a play, differs from the "story," which encompasses earlier events (multi-plot stories).


story:
1. a prose or poetry narrative; tale. 2. an imaginative tale shorter than a novel but with plot, characters, and setting, as a short story. 3. the plot of a novel, poem, etc. 4. a branch of literature. 5. something narrated.


theme:
In literature (as well as many works of nonfiction), a theme is the main idea of the story, or the message the author is conveying. This message is usually about life, society or human nature. Not all stories have explicit themes (they are optional in escape fiction).

they are different but need to be present in the writing.

[taijasi]

Has anyone seen the movie Razor's Edge (preferably the 1946 version), recently enough, or are you familiar enough with it - to give a quick summary here, with focus on plot and theme? I think it would be neat to look at this one. I'm off to eat some birthday cake, but later I will make my best go at a plot summary ... if no one else has posted one.

(What I find at IMDB, though technically accurate in terms of the "plot" definition you posted, Bandit, is quite disappointing. Perhaps it is the theme I was seeking. Could we look at the relation between these two? At this point, I would hope at best to catch a glimpse of Razor's Edge as W. Somerset Maugham himself - meant for it to be. Isn't that what you were getting at, Bandit?)

andrew

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Has anyone seen the movie Razor's Edge (preferably the 1946 version), recently enough, or are you familiar enough with it - to give a quick summary here, with focus on plot and theme? I think it would be neat to look at this one. I'm off to eat some birthday cake, but later I will make my best go at a plot summary ... if no one else has posted one.

(What I find at IMDB, though technically accurate in terms of the "plot" definition you posted, Bandit, is quite disappointing. Perhaps it is the theme I was seeking. Could we look at the relation between these two? At this point, I would hope at best to catch a glimpse of Razor's Edge as W. Somerset Maugham himself - meant for it to be. Isn't that what you were getting at, Bandit?)

andrew

thanks Andrew . yes. you have it correct. there is a difference in theme & plot. i am glad you want to discuss it that way & compare. that should be an eye opener for some who do not know.

for example the plot in the Bishops Wife is a wife who is being very neglected by her husband & she is unhappy but not making it known to him because she loves him & so she waits... He is too busy for her...so you have this angel who comes in & tries to bring them together before Christmas.

the theme there as i see it, would be Christmas & things to do with Christmas Time. there can be more than one theme also.
but plot is different. one plot, but you can have subplots.

i have not seen or read razors edge. here is what i got for the story & for the plot outline:
(as for the theme(s), i cant say.)
i kind of view plot outline as something different than plot. it gives a more general approach to describing the action invlolved. plot outline tends to give a theme as well as the plot in the part i underlined. IMO
is that also what you were emphasizing comparing plot & theme in this particular story?
if so, i think we are in agreement.

Tagline: The story of one man's search for himself.

Plot Outline: He had everything and wanted nothing. He learned that he had nothing and wanted everything. He saved the world and then it shattered. The path to enlightenment is as sharp and narrow as a razor's edge.

i think this is educational & rewarding, even if others do not see it that way.

we can look at other plots in many different things, stories, movies & texts if you would like, discuss the differences & i would enjoy that.
have a nice weekend.

[taijasi]

Wow! Thank you, Bandit. Imo, you have the hit the nail right on with this one! In context, what you have shared regarding Razor's Edge, even w/o reading/seeing it, is both accurate, and insightful, in keeping with the discussion. This, is what I was looking for.

IMDB does provide a slightly more detailed plot description, and the outline I think is just a way to get a quick snapshot of what goes on in the movie, novel, or story. Plot twists have always appealed to me, and I know there are folks who love this kind of movie or novel, as it keeps us guessing - whether as a mystery, as a suspense/thriller, or just as pure drama. Sometimes, it can grow thin, however, if the whole point of a novel is simply to befuddle, and no theme ever emerges. Detective novels in the tradition of Sherlock Holmes usually manage to avoid this. Today's movies - are all too often, nothing but a plot pretzel.

But a theme must be carefully woven into the story, and Razor's Edge is one in which I personally feel that the author has done so masterfully, and managed to evoke immense emotion, and for me - even a spiritual recognition and response. I really don't know that much about W. Somerset Maugham, but I do recall reading that he was involved with (consulted on) the bringing of his novel to the silver screen ... and somehow I just feel, certain, that the end result (in the case of the 1946 production) was quite true to his intent & inspiration. The later production, with Bill Murray, is one I need to see again.

Anyway, thanks for weaving my post into this thread!

andrew

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Bandit

that is how i see it. many different types of plots & discussed in different ways. in fiction the plot is not a true account, but it could be true to someones experience & they can relate from those events.
a text book would be interesting to examine the plot

A text book does not have a plot, although it is highly literal. A text book is typically laid out such that the first chapters introduce the subject being studied and subsequent chapters reflect increasing levels of complexity or more and more detailed explanation and examples. A history text might be different as it might be laid out chronologically, or perhaps the same set of events viewed from different perspectives (what did the Civil War mean to the Union soldiers, the Confederate soldiers, the slaves, the landowners, the women, the politicians, the native Americans...).

in science & in the the lab, i believe there is also something known as a plot- as in the layout.

Experiment design can go by various names and yes plot design is one of them, although not one I typically use except as it relates to field experiments (and I mean literally field experiments, as in planting large plots of plants for experimentation). Experimental design is critical for subsequent statistical analysis of the resulting data.

peace,
luna

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Wow! Thank you, Bandit. Imo, you have the hit the nail right on with this one! In context, what you have shared regarding Razor's Edge, even w/o reading/seeing it, is both accurate, and insightful, in keeping with the discussion. This, is what I was looking for.

IMDB does provide a slightly more detailed plot description, and the outline I think is just a way to get a quick snapshot of what goes on in the movie, novel, or story. Plot twists have always appealed to me, and I know there are folks who love this kind of movie or novel, as it keeps us guessing - whether as a mystery, as a suspense/thriller, or just as pure drama. Sometimes, it can grow thin, however, if the whole point of a novel is simply to befuddle, and no theme ever emerges. Detective novels in the tradition of Sherlock Holmes usually manage to avoid this. Today's movies - are all too often, nothing but a plot pretzel.

But a theme must be carefully woven into the story, and Razor's Edge is one in which I personally feel that the author has done so masterfully, and managed to evoke immense emotion, and for me - even a spiritual recognition and response. I really don't know that much about W. Somerset Maugham, but I do recall reading that he was involved with (consulted on) the bringing of his novel to the silver screen ... and somehow I just feel, certain, that the end result (in the case of the 1946 production) was quite true to his intent & inspiration. The later production, with Bill Murray, is one I need to see again.

Anyway, thanks for weaving my post into this thread!

andrew

you picked a good one there with razors edge. the theme is subtle & a lot of people may not catch on to it the first time.
twisted plots are interesting too. they seem to lean toward awkwardness, lack of trust or some kind of abuse. i think it takes a twisted mind to write it, but not always a twisted mind to unravel it.

weaving the theme(s) into a plot has to be difficult & require a lot of close attention.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

A text book does not have a plot, although it is highly literal. A text book is typically laid out such that the first chapters introduce the subject being studied and subsequent chapters reflect increasing levels of complexity or more and more detailed explanation and examples. A history text might be different as it might be laid out chronologically, or perhaps the same set of events viewed from different perspectives (what did the Civil War mean to the Union soldiers, the Confederate soldiers, the slaves, the landowners, the women, the politicians, the native Americans...).

peace,
luna

it is not real literature so i suppose you are correct. there is no literal plot. perhaps a text book 'has plot' or is plotted instead of having 'a plot'?. a lot of times each new chapter can build on a previous chapter, so that would be important to get the order correct in a text book. one other thing i noticed is the last chapter can be something very simple. i have often wondered why some teachers bounce around inside a text book & others go from the front to back.

what about journalism?

[Bandit]

To Kill a Mocking Bird

anyone want to tackle the plot &/or theme on this one?
everyone should know a little about it.
it has some real good lessons for us to learn.