Philosophy Phun

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Thomas

The Ship of Theseus

According to Greek legend, Theseus had a ship that was preserved by the Athenians, who replaced the old with the new so that, in time, every single piece of the ship had been replaced.

Question: Is it still the same ship?
Corollary: If another ship was bult from the pieces replaced, which ship is the rightful Ship of Theseus?

Hi,

I'd say:
A: No.
Corollary A: If a ship is made entirely from original pieces then this is the, er, original Ship. The other is a replica.

+++

As reported in a classic car magazine, a man found a pile of rust, in which was a much corroded chassis plate, which revealed that this pile of rust was, in fact, the earliest registered car of its marque (a Bentley, as I recall).

So the man bought the pile of rust, examined every fragment to determine what was beyond salvage or repair ... and replaced that which was simply too far gone, as one would do over the passage of years ... in so doing he built a Bentley out of new components entirely, everything except the chassis plate.

He then tried to re-register the car as the same vehicle as that signified by the chassis plate, which would make it the oldest and thus most valuable, desirable and collectable (and immediately devaluing the current holder of the title which was itself a restored vehicle, but considerably younger).

Was that car the car the chassis plate claimed it to be?

A: No. Or to put it another way: Only partially - the part being the chassis plate.

This all reminds me why I have found "Western" philosophy books to be so tedious!

s.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Thomas

and Hi Seattlegal ... yes, experience ... and then, of course, with the passage of time, do we remember things now, as we did then, and is what we remember the same as what we experienced.

Nope. The act of remembering is a creative process. (Sorta like rebuilding the ship?)

[Snoopy]

Hi,

OK how boring is that - I just said the same thing as wil.

s.

PS well not exactly the same, but very similar; but I don't wish to debate the point!

[flowperson]

So, the ship isn't just an object. It has an intrinsic identity of itserlf which doesn't rely on it's objective physicality (from it's shippy point of view). You can look at it as an object, or you can intuit what it might be to itself, but you can't have it just one way and not the other. So it's both.

Chris[/quote]

Hmmmm...Kind of reminds me of the structure of the realities behind the illusions we insist upon calling real. It's usually referred to as wave-particle duality. In quantum matters, observation is the activating factor in collapsing wave forms into particle forms (material realities). Chew on that while you're lolling in the hot tub and keeping your hands nice and cool with longies.

flow....

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by flowperson

So, the ship isn't just an object. It has an intrinsic identity of itserlf which doesn't rely on it's objective physicality (from it's shippy point of view). You can look at it as an object, or you can intuit what it might be to itself, but you can't have it just one way and not the other. So it's both.

Chris

Hmmmm...Kind of reminds me of the structure of the realities behind the illusions we insist upon calling real. It's usually referred to as wave-particle duality. In quantum matters, observation is the activating factor in collapsing wave forms into particle forms (material realities). Chew on that while you're lolling in the hot tub and keeping your hands nice and cool with longies.

flow....[/quote]

Well, yeah...

And it's always that. Duality and unity. But we exist in the middle: knowing good from evil, or, being able to experience both but never at the same time. And Shroedinger's cat isn't really a cat at all. It's an analogy about how things might be in the quantum world. But what's really a trip is trying to wrap your mind around what the Newtonian reality might look like from the quantum perspective, because that point of view can't exist (theoretically) without the other either. So, you might say that the 3D illusion is necessary for the other dimensions to exist, which kinda implies an essential delusion in the framework of human consciousness. Woohoo!

Chris

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Well, yeah...

And it's always that. Duality and unity. But we exist in the middle: knowing good from evil, or, being able to experience both but never at the same time. And Shroedinger's cat isn't really a cat at all. It's an analogy about how things might be in the quantum world. But what's really a trip is trying to wrap your mind around what the Newtonian reality might look like from the quantum perspective, because that point of view can't exist (theoretically) without the other either. So, you might say that the 3D illusion is necessary for the other dimensions to exist, which kinda implies an essential delusion in the framework of human consciousness. Woohoo!

Chris

We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe.
--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe.
--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Yep, yep, yep, yup, yup, yup, cackle, cackle, cackle, snort, snort, snort, grunt, grunt, grunt...let's see...where was I ? Oh...yeah...I was watching Schroedinger's cat have kittens.

Which also reminds me that this appeared on the NYTIMES website yesterday. Today's crazies are tomorrow's heros sometimes.

www.nytimes.com/2007/01/26/arts/design/26rami.html?pagewanted=all

flow....

[Snoopy]

Hi,

Mental health is a reflection of the environment, both as individuals and societies.

s.

[17th Angel]

I have mental issues... ;/ I guess I am a "today crazy"...

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Is it still the same ship?

No. The 'certainty' principle again: No two particles, waves, and no permutations thereof are the 'same'. Every particle, wave, and permutation or collection of them are unique. Calling any two waves, particles, permutations, collections, arrangements, or groups of them the SAME, or absolutely equivalent, is to either tell a lie, to ignore a difference, or to remain ignorant of a 'ship-load' of information. Absolute equalities may exist as fiction in the imaginations of the logical or mathematical, but do NOT exist in the real physical world.

Assuming a true story on the ship, both the original ship and the cannibalized version still exist in this universe.

For the physicist: No two particles or waves can occupy the same space AND the same momentum simultaneously. That is the certainty.

Originally Posted by Thomas

Corrollary: If another ship was built from the pieces replaced, which ship is the rightful Ship of Theseus?

Any ship that Theseus has willingly designed, built, or sailed, or that others willingly designed, built, or sailed per his will, as the will of others allow and subject to the laws or agreements that Theseus has jointly made... in my opinion. Regardless of what is right, as someone once told me... possession is 9/10ths.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Nope. The act of remembering is a creative process. (Sorta like rebuilding the ship?)

There are many examples of deterministic memory devoid of any creativity. The effect is a memory of the cause in a causal, non-creative process.

[Caimanson]

Lets put it this way, if it has more original parts it has a higher value in the antiques market!
You pay more for the sentimental value of owning history.