Persecution of Jews

[Marsh]

I decided to post this here because monotheists have a pretty rich history of persecuting each other.

We're studying WWII and the Holocaust in my history class, and today one of my students asked me this question: "Why are Jewish people always persecuted?" I hardly knew where to begin.

I'm interested in hearing other people's answers to this question.

[dauer]

Persecuted by the Romans for not assimilating. Persecuted by Christianity for existing despite Jesus and not believing in him, and also because the gospels demonize Jews. Judas might as well be called "Jew." and Jesus certainly slanders the Pharisees who would give rise to what Judaism is known as today.

Not assimilating also helped with Christianity because it makes the Jewish community seem like a group of outsiders.

[ISFP]

i agree with dauer here. in europe for many centuries (though the severity of persecution varried from year to year and place to place) the Jews were often viewed as little more than vermin. their culture and religious practices were very poorly understood by most people. as a result they were believed to engage in all sorts of ridiculous things- murder of christian children, drinking of christian blood, desecration of christian holy objects.

those who propogated and believed these myths seemed to have this wet dream of Jews being rattled with a violent, bitter obsession with destroying or undermining christianity. countless Jewish men, women, and kids were chased, tortured or killed as punishment for these fabricated crimes. there are many european woodblocks depicting this.

interestingly, when christianity was starting out, the Romans accused the Christians of many of the same things. mainly out of ignorance and as a means to propagate opposition to / violence against christians.

[buenognosis]

Testing the waters here as for reasons unknown to me my post on the philosophy board never appeared. Maybe there's some new person initiation ritual I missed..

Oh, regarding this topic, I think the answer why Jews have suffered so much persecution throughout their cultic lifespan is most easily understood from a sociology of human societies p.o.v. Human societies overcome group barriers to social intercourse in a number of differing ways, wars, trade, nationalism, common religions, and sex and food sharing. When you've got a group within your group that refuses to touch members of your group, refuses to eat with members of your group, refuses to let members of your group marry their sons or daughters, and you're the majority population and not well versed in civilized life, well, you've got a mixture for a time bomb that periodically goes off. It's pretty simple really. What Jews call "anti-Semitism" is the inevitable negative social reaction Gentile groups will have to rejection of common social bonding mechanisms that human beings use to overcome group barriers in order to form larger and larger "family" identities, the basis of state and nation building.

[BluejayWay]

in europe for many centuries...

Also, in the Europe of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, Christians were often prohibited from practicing usury, loaning money at interest. In an expanding mercantile economy, that runs into problems, for obvious reasons. Jews tended to be restricted in the kinds of employment they could take part in, so moneylending became, by default, a profitable occupation for Jews, since merchants weren't likely to stir up interest in interest-free loans from their coreligionists for that latest sure-thing business venture that just needed a bit of capital to get it off the ground.
So what happens when the business goes under and you've got to repay money you don't have to this weird guy who killed Christ and drinks Christian babies' blood and goodness knows what else?
Well, you might get a little resentful, and you might even blame the bloodsucking, avaricious, hard-hearted Jew somehow for your smashing lack of success....
And on top of that, kings and such were always running short of money for the latest Crusade or dowry for their, uh, "plain" daughter they needed to marry off--and guess who had the money to loan them? Even if a rich Jew had made his money "honestly" (not by usury), a noble could force him into the moneylending business anyway. And if things went bad, the royal debtor was in an excellent position to propose a unilateral debt-forgiveness scheme. And the nobility could easily fall prey to the same resentment that the common borrowers could develop against their Jewish lenders, often with violent results.
This is a case where Christian prejudice reinforced itself. Jews aren't Christians, so they can participate in non-Christain activities--have to, to survive--which have a deleterious effect on some of the Christians eager to make use of their services, which makes the Jews evil people for participating in non-Christian activities.
Shakespeare's character Shylock in The Merchant of Venice is almost the archetypical greedy Jew.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by buenognosis

Testing the waters here as for reasons unknown to me my post on the philosophy board never appeared. Maybe there's some new person initiation ritual I missed..

Oh, regarding this topic, I think the answer why Jews have suffered so much persecution throughout their cultic lifespan is most easily understood from a sociology of human societies p.o.v. Human societies overcome group barriers to social intercourse in a number of differing ways, wars, trade, nationalism, common religions, and sex and food sharing. When you've got a group within your group that refuses to touch members of your group, refuses to eat with members of your group, refuses to let members of your group marry their sons or daughters, and you're the majority population and not well versed in civilized life, well, you've got a mixture for a time bomb that periodically goes off. It's pretty simple really. What Jews call "anti-Semitism" is the inevitable negative social reaction Gentile groups will have to rejection of common social bonding mechanisms that human beings use to overcome group barriers in order to form larger and larger "family" identities, the basis of state and nation building.

Hi buenognosis, and welcome to CR.

Apologies for losing your first post - often this is due to cookie issues: of only being logged in for a short period of time, only to send the post and lose it once your sign-in cookie expires if you're not set to sign in whenever you visit the board.

As for your suggestion - I would quite agree as well - certainly it was the failure of early Christianity to assimilate into Roman society that caused consternation.

As reference on early Roman religion, Roman Law and Roman Gods were interwined, so to refuse to offer to the gods was to be seen to be an act of treason to Roman society - which obviously came to a head when the particularly devout refused to offer and share the feast of Roman Gods - and snubbing Roman society and its institutions to boot.

The money-lending issue is also a very important one - as this is a particular issue that has fed the caricature of the "greedy Jew". It's one that Adolf Hitler invokes in Mein Kamf, and it's one that radical Muslims throw out as a modern-day resurrection within their conspiracy theories of the world being controlled by powerful Jews in everywhere from banking to politics - and even Hollywood staffing.

[smkolins]

It seems to me that perhaps countries have assembled from diverse elements (however much they become homoenous over time.) Jews have tended to have less ability to assemble diverse people - making it difficult to convert for example. On the other hand they have a strong sense of identity which resists becoming one of the diverse elements which can make a common culture for a nation - for example observant Jews cannot eat with non-Jews because of the difficulty of following Kosher laws (not that inherently eating with other is not Kosher, but making others follow such rules is hard to for non-Jews to respect.) Not strong enough to make a viable nation, but too strong to be absorded. It is in some sense similar to the African-American (as opposed to the purely African) experience. Too many, too strong a cultral identity, and too marginalized to be assimulated (unlike African-British, if that is the word) but too few to establish their own region though that would have been difficult rising from within a country.

Of course it is difficult to work this out without tripping all over stereotypes and assumptions which I'm sure the above are ripe with. Of course there have been periods of Jews having a nation. But it has been interupted over long stretches of time - perhaps it would be fair to note that we wouldn't be talking about them if they had dispersed as so many other peoples have. But I do think there is something to be said in theme I'm weaving....

[Basstian]

Seems everyone is looking at the AD answer to this question and there is a mulititude of examples of persecution.

On the same hand the BCE story reads almost the same.

God blessing the Jews in egypt seemed to spark a concern that they would take over thus began their slavery in the land for over 400 yrs

Than they march to a land filled with Milk and honey again they are Blessed they set on the world at that times Major highway Gold flowed into the land buy the ship full when they followed God ....flip side it also made them a target

There was no way to take over the world in an economical way without crushing the controling the land of Israel.

Babylon ,Persia Media/Presia Alexander the great and the Greeks than Rome than Muslims all seemed to covet this little nation and its blessings (tho I believe Muslims persecution of Jews was a design By God from the time of Abraham)
Like it or not the Jews have been Blessed by God since Abraham and still are today almost genetic type thing. On the flip side They are cursed for disobedience under the law and the curses also carry for generation to generation I am not sure of the verse but think it says even until the 7th generation or some number like that.
If in my lifetime I ever see peace in the land of Israel I ma going to pull out my Bible and read all the prophecy by candle light in the most secure location I can find because there would be no telling what is going to happen next.

I read a decree from an early church leader about what jobs a jew could have in rome and how they couldnt build new churches (very early AD ) couldnt go to court against a christian etc etc etc. iT refered to them as the murders of our Lord and Saviour Jesus.
I am sorry to say this happened for a whole diferent more sinister reason
The Jews taught adherence to the word of God the Church taught adherence to the word of the Church. Ridding Christianity of all Jewish influence made it possible to control the people and their gold. Made it Possible for the Church to impose Taxes sell indulgences Build extravagant Churches all in the name of God and the Pope.
Great reforms have been made in Christianity since the Darkages but still the tradition to avoid the Jews and even hate lives on.
Not preached from the pulpit but definitly there I see it all the time even here in the Middle U.S.

[Bandit]

Something else to consider is, that through the history of persecution and slavery and wandering, that seems to be the way that God kept them all together. For example the line of righteous seed from Adam to Noah, up to Mary for the making of Jesus.

There has always been a stigma the Jews are Gods chosen people. But I see a purpose in it, not just for the Jew but for everyone.

All of the sudden even though they have there own Nation to date, they have also been scattered.
I see this 'chosen people' as a type:
God is to Israel (earthly) what Jesus is to the Church (spiritually).

Both are persecuted and scattered, then brought together at the resurrection (second coming of Christ).
Both Israel and the church (body of Christ) are displayed as two seperate women in the NT and the book of Revelations.

I see where both Jew and Gentile have accepted Jesus and at the same time some of the Jews and Gentiles reject Jesus.

[SC_Override]

Originally Posted by Basstian

than Muslims all seemed to covet this little nation and its blessings (tho I believe Muslims persecution of Jews was a design By God from the time of Abraham)

Can you give an example of Muslim persecution of the Jews?



Thank you kindly.



p.s. please do not include examples of when Jews had treaties with the Muslims and when they thought the opportunity suited them would then break their treaties to betray the Muslims, from which the Muslims would then attack the Jews. This is called treason and not persecution.

One very famous event, and which is often used by Christians to stir up arguments amongst Muslims and Jews is the battle of the trench during the time of prophet Muhammad (pbuh). This event when examined properly will show that what happened to the Jews was due to betrayal by breaking a treaty and then attacking the Muslims because they thought the battle would go their way. Unfortunately, for the Jews who thought they were on the winning side with an army which was five times larger than the Muslim army at the battle of the trench were unfortunately on the losing side, and at the end of the battle were killed due to treason.

If anything, the Jews have always been under the protection of the Islamic Khilafah, and in fact flourished under Islamic Rule. When Jews were being persecuted by the Christians who would they go to for protection? Yes to the Islamic Khilafah.

[bananabrain]

Can you give an example of Muslim persecution of the Jews?

whilst i hold to the view that generally islamic rule was more beneficent than christian rule for jewish communities, there have been many times when this broke down, as this quote from a "history of the sephardic jews" ( http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Spa...no-History.htm ) suggests. this is also *relative*, by the way - i don't especially think that dhimmi status would be much fun and, from what i've heard of the rhetoric of neo-khilafists, i don't think we would look forward to nearly as much protection as we have at the moment from secular democracy - albeit i am not exactly holding it up as a model of morality; as churchill said, "it's the worst option - until you look at all the others."

The situation, however, deteriorated again when soon after 1008 the Caliphate of Córdoba disintegrated into a lot of petty statelets (taifas), whih were unable to oppose the pressure of the northern Christian kingdoms. When Toledo fell to the Castilians (1085), the taifa kings had to call the Almoravids, a militarist Moorish sect from Morocco. The Almoravids believed that Jews must accept Islam if 500 years after the death of the Prophet Muhammad their Messiah had not come. A campaign to convert the Sephardim by force was launched in al-Andalus (the Muslim part of Spain), but the matters were arranged after a great ransom was paid. The Almoravids' intervention could stop only temporarily the Christians. In 1147 the Muslims of Spain had to appeal for help to the Almohads, Berber Muslim reformers of Northern Africa. Their arrival saved for once more time the Islam in Spain, but the Almohads attacked not only the Christians, but the Sephardim also. The Jewish communities of al-Andalus were destroyed and thousands of Jews were driven either to northern Spain and Provence or, as in the case of Maimonides' family, to North Africa and Egypt.

the most current persecution of jews from my point of view in this country being muslim-led, albeit with the enthusiastic participation of many left-wing non-muslims, namely what's going on at the school of oriental and african studies of the university of london and many other british universities at present. of course that's all supposed to be about israel, but on the receiving end of it it rather hard to tell the difference.

actually, i don't think it's particularly productive to bring all of this stuff up, it's only going to raise temperatures. however, nobody is helped by attempts to whitewash history - and that includes islamic history, i'm afraid. i'm not going to bring up stuff from the beginning of islam, because as far as i am aware that is a particular group of jews, not jews as a whole. unfortunately, i think i can see where you're going with this, having heard versions of it many times from various salafists and wahhabis. all i can say, sc_override, is that you should not take the "khilafa now" kind of approach as an example of how to have a good islamic relationship with jews - or indeed anyone.

as for the original question, how long is a piece of string? blaming "the other", jew, christian or muslim or whoever, is simply a method of avoiding taking responsibility for one's own actions. of course anti-semitism is a problem and should be fought, but it will probably exist until the messiah comes. however, i must take issue with this:

It's pretty simple really. What Jews call "anti-Semitism" is the inevitable negative social reaction Gentile groups will have to rejection of common social bonding mechanisms that human beings use to overcome group barriers in order to form larger and larger "family" identities, the basis of state and nation building.

- in other words, it's our own darn fault for maintaining the barriers of tradition and observance. i have to say that this is not just an attack on judaism, but an attack on any religion or anything that insists on borders between the permitted and the forbidden, or between one community and another. an example of this kind of thinking is the french ban on hijab and other "ostentatious" religious dress in schools and this is a point of view that i condemn utterly as tantamount to secularist evangelism.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by dauer

Persecuted by the Romans for not assimilating. Persecuted by Christianity for existing despite Jesus and not believing in him, and also because the gospels demonize Jews. Judas might as well be called "Jew." and Jesus certainly slanders the Pharisees who would give rise to what Judaism is known as today.

Not assimilating also helped with Christianity because it makes the Jewish community seem like a group of outsiders.

I would just like to say that on a Christian viewpoint.. The bible clearly says that those that are against His chosen people will receive His wrath.. so if Christians are in anyway "against" the Jewish people they are disobeying God.

[SC_Override]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

what i've heard of the rhetoric of neo-khilafists, i don't think we would look forward to nearly as much protection as we have at the moment from secular democracy -

b'shalom

bananabrain

As-Salaam-Alaikum,



I would agree and disagree at the same time. I agree in the sense that if an Islamic state was created and due to the current affairs of the Muslims and Jews I would not be surprised to see some form of conflict arising between Jews and Muslims, which in my opinion would be more politically motivated rather than religiously. However, I would also disagree simply because as there is no Khilafah that presently exists, this suggests what state of affairs the Muslims are presently in i.e. there is much corruption by which the leaders of the so called Muslim states are not enforcing the laws Islamically, therefore, if a Khilafah was to re-emerge then its re-emergence wouls only be if the people wanting to establish it are sincere about their religion who wish to enforce gods rules then in my opinion I cannot see Jews going under the sword.



Having said that, I would further disagree in terms of how Jews are presently practicing their religion. What I mean by this is that Jews should live according to their own laws that they must enforce for their people to follow according to. Yes, the argument that Jews are not being persecuted physically in a secularist society would be true, however, as Jews are not allowed to enforce their own judicial laws this to me is a greater form of persecution. Whereas Jews are allowed to practice their own laws in an Islamic governed country, therefore I would then assert that Jews would in fact be better off living in an Islamic Khilafah rather than a secular democracy. Furthermore, I think many Jews of today are looking at it from a physical aspect of persecution. I could further argue that the Jews have become extremely subdued by secular democracy because they are not being physically persecuted they are willing to compromise their religious laws for the sake of it. At the same time, I also believe this is the same situation Muslims are also facing too. Muslims that live in secularist societies have also been subdued and because they are not physically being persecuted they are also willing to sacrifice their own judicial laws from being implemented. I guess in some way I could argue this is the danger of secularism because it is very inviting as there seems to be no physical persecution, however, if you look at it deeply it is actually far worse to live in because you are forced to accept the majority rule of the entire country, which is not always going to conform to your own religious beliefs, i.e. the acceptance of homosexuality, widespread fornication etc. I guess there is nothing wrong with the concept of majority rule, however, where it breaks down is when there are many different faiths in one country who have strict internal rules that must be enforced, therefore, one rule to rule them all in not enough and this is where you will see a breakdown of these societies and in my opinion you will eventually see more forms of rebellions/disloyalty in these types of societies. But then having said all that, it is just my opinion, and I humbly accept that I could be wrong I am not intending to take this in a particular direction, so I hope I did not cause any offence to you. I guess I might be trying to hard to be an idealist, which can be very blinding at times.



wa 'alaikum salaam

[bananabrain]

thank you, SC_Override, for such a thoughtful response. as you say, due to the current state of relations the prospect of khilafah is not an attractive one. may this change sooner rather than later - and let our own conversation be part of that increase in peace and tolerance. i agree with you, incidentally, if you are saying that there is no islamic state currently in existence. my understanding of islam, uneducated though it may be, associates it with an absolute commitment to social justice; such commitment is conspicuously absent (or at best conspicuously unequal) in the self-styled islamic states that currently exist. a state is not islamic if people live in poverty, if corruption is rampant, if the rulers live in luxury and hypocrisy whilst ignorance and oppression are rife. a *truly* islamic state would be truly fair - in fact, i might go so far as to say that such a society would be an indication of the arrival of the messianic age as we would understand it.

I would further disagree in terms of how Jews are presently practicing their religion. What I mean by this is that Jews should live according to their own laws that they must enforce for their people to follow according to.

hah. actually, i agree with you. many of the problems we face as a people stem from our inability or unwillingness to live up to the standards mandated by G!D and Torah. in the same way that an islamic state must be just, so must a truly jewish community or a truly jewish state.

as Jews are not allowed to enforce their own judicial laws this to me is a greater form of persecution. Whereas Jews are allowed to practice their own laws in an Islamic governed country, therefore I would then assert that Jews would in fact be better off living in an Islamic Khilafah rather than a secular democracy.

not until those who run jewish law can learn to lead and enable as well as they restrict, prevent and condemn. i would say exactly the same things of the people who are the thought leaders and religious custodians of sharia.

I could further argue that the Jews have become extremely subdued by secular democracy because they are not being physically persecuted they are willing to compromise their religious laws for the sake of it. At the same time, I also believe this is the same situation Muslims are also facing too.

i get what you mean and to some extent i agree with it. however, in the absence of our equivalent of khilafah and the coming of the Messiah, there is a principle of jewish law known as dina de'malchuta dina, which states that "the law of the land must be the law" - in other words, as a citizen of the UK i am bound to be a loyal subject of the queen and a law-abiding member of society, even of laws that i do not agree with. if, say, EU human rights law overrules UK law on a particular point, however, that is OK too and, if it assists me in living a jewish life and preserving my jewish identity then that is even better. i guess the point i am making is that there is a balance to be maintained. i do not think that the jewish community should be run by its own laws *alone* within the UK, as this is a recipe for fragmentation and tantamount to a return to the ghetto. nonetheless, i remain resolutely against any attempt to enforce a secular standard in the way they are doing in france at the moment. jews and sikhs should stand with the muslims in the fight to display our symbols. both of these are extreme examples; like you, i don't particularly want to see naked women all over the place, but neither will i demand that my standards of propriety are maintained by all in the style demanded by the commissars of political correctness - christmas is a good example: i am not offended by christmas; let people celebrate it. however, i refuse to get involved in it myself; i don't send christmas cards or give christmas presents, but if someone wishes me merry christmas, i don't lecture them about how it ought to be "season's greetings" or "happy winterval".

i think we're rather in agreement here, which is nice!

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Conscience]

"Why are Jewish people always persecuted?"

Because they are God's chosen people and Satan hates them more than any other people. God has chosen them to bring forth, both the Law and the Messiah. I believe Satan thinks if he could kill them out then he could change what God has already said about them, and thereby changing his set fate. God said that we should look to the Jews for proof him him, because they will be proof of his existence. The little reminent of people called the Jews will be persecuated time and again, but will ALWAYS over come.

Question: Ever wonder why the Jews were able to out last their stronger, and more powerful persecutors?

Answer: Its because they serve the one true God, who has NOT forgotten his promise to them.

This is just my beliefs, dont kick me off for it, please!