Past Lives

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Susma,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Namaste Vaj:

I used to think in this manner:

The first spark of life, if such there was once upon a time in space and time, travels and branches out in cosmic universe on and on; so all of us are so many reincarnations in a way of that original spark.

My problem is with the conscious continuity of each identity like you and me, how do we recall that link back all the way to the original spak, or just to the immediately preceding one from where we derive?

we gain this ability when we reach the first Bodhisattva level or bhumi. what can i say other than this is explictily set forth in the Sutras?

Vaj, you are much more knowledgeable about evidence for reincarnation, can you do me the favor of presenting the evidence for me even just briefly.

it would facilitate this greatly if you would relate the type of evidence that you would consider acceptable.

in any event. there are numerous accounts of rebirth in the Tibetan tradition. in fact, there are tests that are used to ascertain this very thing. nominally, would would happen is that objects from the previous incarnation, such as glasses, are mixed with other objects of the same type. the supposed incarnation must correctly pick out each item from the sample.

in the Dalai Lama's case, he was taken to Potala after being recognized as the next Dalai Lama. at Potala he was subjected to the tests and passed them all. at one point, he went into a room which had previously been restricted. he opened the door and went in looking around.. he announced that this was "his" room and, then going to a chest of drawers, opened them and pulled out a box. at this point, his mother was still with him and she asked him what was in the box. he replied, "my teeth." they opened the box and inside were the false teeth of the 13th Dalai Lama.

About the movie, I saw some portion of it in cable tv and lost interest. It seems like the Nativity story without the placenta and the washing up and the details of birthing not being described in all its real specifics.

sounds like you saw a different movie.

Honestly, Vaj, do we not see that when it comes to religion or religious philosophy as I would consider Buddhism, I think we could consider it a privileged area of human knowing and feeling, and we might have to just abstain from questions of evidence, except of course the one of personal expeience however it is encountered by each person.

Namaste, and I really appreciate your genuine Buddhist equanimity.

Susma Rio Sep

this has, indeed, been the approach of most people with regards to claims that appear to be untestable. evidence is what a person chooses to accept to validate thier belief. evidence can take many forms, some of it quite explicit and still people will not accept it.

in the end, evidence is just a security blanket for our insecurities

[Susma Rio Sep]

Namaste Vaj:

You say:

__________________________________________

this has, indeed, been the approach of most people with regards to claims that appear to be untestable. evidence is what a person chooses to accept to validate thier belief. evidence can take many forms, some of it quite explicit and still people will not accept it.

in the end, evidence is just a security blanket for our insecurities

____________________________________________

I can accept that, Vaj. God bless you; even though you don't believe in God and I find it too easy to believe -- no trouble at all.

I understand that the 14th Dalai Lama takes off from the 13th and all the way back to the first.

We do know the 13th and maybe the 12th. Their earthly remains are still with us. Any chance of comparing their fingerprints, all the three of them, the live one and the two deceased ones? What about some kind of DNA testing, would it be appropriate?

Vaj, you are a great guy, genuine Buddhist. I think Buddhists like you will stop all war and violence. No flattery.

Susma Rio Sep

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Susma,

thank you for the reply.

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Namaste Vaj:

You say:

__________________________________________

this has, indeed, been the approach of most people with regards to claims that appear to be untestable. evidence is what a person chooses to accept to validate thier belief. evidence can take many forms, some of it quite explicit and still people will not accept it.

in the end, evidence is just a security blanket for our insecurities

____________________________________________

I can accept that, Vaj. God bless you; even though you don't believe in God and I find it too easy to believe -- no trouble at all.

I understand that the 14th Dalai Lama takes off from the 13th and all the way back to the first.

We do know the 13th and maybe the 12th. Their earthly remains are still with us. Any chance of comparing their fingerprints, all the three of them, the live one and the two deceased ones? What about some kind of DNA testing, would it be appropriate?

Vaj, you are a great guy, genuine Buddhist. I think Buddhists like you will stop all war and violence. No flattery.

Susma Rio Sep

in Tibet they use a funeary called "sky burial" wherein monks take the bodies to certain high cliffs and mountians and leave them for the animals to eat. recycled people, as it were bodies are not viewed in the same way in the eastern traditions.

so that would pretty much rule out modern forensics. however, in Buddhism, rebirth is not reincarnation... you don't come back over and over... though part of your consciousness does, the Alaya consciousness or storehouse consciousness.

thank you for your kind words funnily enough, 15 years ago, i was a completely different person.. and i'm not talking cellular regeneration either but that of a spiritual, mental and emotional change. one that has been for the better in every sense of the word.

[Susma Rio Sep]

I see that Buddhist reincarnation is not quite like Christian resurrection, where the body comes back to life but in some kind of glorified state.

Am I right? You mean in Buddhist reincarnation it is the consciousness that is restored to dwell in a bodily form, but not of the identical previous body of past incarnations.

So with Dalai Lamas the consciousness of the previous one on death comes to inhabit another human being, who now is the latest Dalai Lama, the 14th one in the chain of reincarnations.

How is the proof of his link to previous Dalai Lamas or just the immediately preceding one to be established? By the search for instances where the circumstances of the present one can be linked to circumstances of past ones? Most important would be conscious memory in the present Dalai Lama of incidents peculiar to past reincarnations.


I withdraw my request for evidence of reincarnation, specifically in regard to the Dalai Lama. Let us just believe in reincarnation, without looking for evidence.

In my case I can and do believe in reincarnation, but I don’t believe that the 14th Dalai Lama is reincarnated even just in his consciousness from previous ones.

Susma Rio Sep

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

I see that Buddhist reincarnation is not quite like Christian resurrection, where the body comes back to life but in some kind of glorified state.

Namaste,

thank you for the post.

correct, Christian ressurrection is not Buddhist rebirth, hence the use of a different term to denote the two.

Am I right? You mean in Buddhist reincarnation it is the consciousness that is restored to dwell in a bodily form, but not of the identical previous body of past incarnations.

not exactly... it's the Alaya consciousness that is reborn, this is the 6th level of consciousness also called the "storehouse".

no bodies.. this is not transmigration or ressurrection. nor is it Hindu rebirth either as they hold that the Atman is what is reborn, and Buddhism refutes that Atman doctrine altogether.

So with Dalai Lamas the consciousness of the previous one on death comes to inhabit another human being, who now is the latest Dalai Lama, the 14th one in the chain of reincarnations.

How is the proof of his link to previous Dalai Lamas or just the immediately preceding one to be established? By the search for instances where the circumstances of the present one can be linked to circumstances of past ones? Most important would be conscious memory in the present Dalai Lama of incidents peculiar to past reincarnations.

sort of... in point of fact, the Dalai Lama is an emmanation of the Bodhisattva Avelokiteshavara, the Boddhisattva of Compassion. it is this Bodhisattva that is continually manifesting a form body in the Kaygu lineage. it gets a bit complex to explain without a proper grounding in Buddhist thought.

I withdraw my request for evidence of reincarnation, specifically in regard to the Dalai Lama. Let us just believe in reincarnation, without looking for evidence.

In my case I can and do believe in reincarnation, but I don’t believe that the 14th Dalai Lama is reincarnated even just in his consciousness from previous ones.

Susma Rio Sep

he is NOT reincarnated. i really don't know how else to say that this word is not what we are talking about. we Buddhists don't believe that he's reincarnatned either. however, more importantly, why should you? you're not a Buddhist.

in any event.. i don't believe in reincarnation whatsoever. no Buddhist

[zenmonk_genryu]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

So with Dalai Lamas the consciousness of the previous one on death comes to inhabit another human being, who now is the latest Dalai Lama, the 14th one in the chain of reincarnations.

How is the proof of his link to previous Dalai Lamas or just the immediately preceding one to be established? By the search for instances where the circumstances of the present one can be linked to circumstances of past ones? Most important would be conscious memory in the present Dalai Lama of incidents peculiar to past reincarnations.

Yes the Dalai Lama has and had recollections of former incarnations. Though again no Buddhist believes in reincarnation in the Hindu sense, but there is a teaching of rebirth. It's not a matter of belief though as Buddhism asks us to find reality, not to believe.

[Susma Rio Sep]

You know, the idea in Christianity that faith is a gift is very practical and saves a lot of questionings.

This concept might be helpful also in Buddhism.

When I am a Buddhist believer then I can understand what Buddhistic reincarnation or re-emanation or transmigration or return from previous existence or recoup of previous consciousness or resurrection or whatever Buddhist belief of return from a previous existence is all about, and understand it. If I have the faith, that is. Which proves that I don't because I can't understand: and ergo I can't believe.

Susma Rio Sep

[zenmonk_genryu]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

You know, the idea in Christianity that faith is a gift is very practical and saves a lot of questionings.

This concept might be helpful also in Buddhism.

When I am a Buddhist believer then I can understand what Buddhistic reincarnation or re-emanation or transmigration or return from previous existence or recoup of previous consciousness or resurrection or whatever Buddhist belief of return from a previous existence is all about, and understand it. If I have the faith, that is. Which proves that I don't because I can't understand: and ergo I can't believe.

Susma Rio Sep

A Buddhist believer is kind of a contradiction in terms, as no Buddhist teaching is taken as a matter of belief, but rather as something to be proven or not for oneself, in one's own life. If you know that there is rebirth there is no need to believe. If you believe it, then you do not know.

Buddhism is a way to know, not a set of beliefs. Faith in Buddhist terms is confidence that there is such a thing as enlightenment and that it is possible for all human beings to experience that enlightenment. Nothing else is a matter of faith. After some practice it's seen that indeed there is enlightenment and therefore it becomes part of one's experience.

Some of the things spoken of in Buddhist teaching point to the heart of experience and aren't really intellectually understandable, except in a very two dimensional sense, so not understanding is not a problem in and of itself. If there is a facet of the teachings that isn't understood, then a Buddhist would 'put it on the back burner' as it were, until they realize in their bones whether or not that teaching is in fact pointing to the truth. Words and concepts point to reality, they cannot contain it.

[Susma Rio Sep]

The following paragraphs are what I can make out from Vaj and Zenmonk here in this part of the thread; the italized lines are my observations:


Rebirth, that's the key concept of Vaj and Zenmonk here.

This term properly indicates a biological process; and the Dalai Lama did get born, he didn't just come down from the sky. (Susma)


Rebrith of what, of a previous incarnation, term also used by Vaj and Zenmonk.

OK, now we have the incarnation term; notice the carna(l) in incarnation: putting on a body or flesh. (Susma)


But it is not re-incarnation -- term not acceptable to Vaj and Zenmonk.

It is a rebirth of a previous incarnation yet not a re-incarnation or reincarnation -- to save on one character space. (Susma)


For the Dalai Lama it is rebirth in the Tibetan tradition.

Not like combustion or distillation, which is the same everywhere. (Susma)


rebirth is not reincarnation... you don't come back over and over... though part of your consciousness does ... it's the Alaya consciousness that is reborn...

You have a rebirth but not a reincarnation. OK, its not the same body coming back but part of the consciousness, maybe a residual consciousness, to maintain the chain of identity(?). (Susma)


no bodies.. this is not transmigration or ressurrection. nor is it Hindu rebirth either as they hold that the Atman is what is reborn, and Buddhism refutes that Atman doctrine altogether.

Refutation of the mother religion, very common in the rise of a new one from the then prevailing one, rejecting the hands that fed oneself. Jesus employed the same approach. (Susma)


the Dalai Lama is an emmanation of the Bodhisattva Avelokiteshavara, the Boddhisattva of Compassion. it is this Bodhisattva that is continually manifesting a form body in the Kaygu lineage. it gets a bit complex to explain without a proper grounding in Buddhist thought.

Trouble appears when more than one baby is claimed by contending groups to be the emanation of the Bodh. My suggestion: just accept all of them, if they are all profitable to the community, and don't quarrel among themselves. Otherwise, reject them all and be more meticulous and extensive with the imposition of criteria to discover the one and only emanation of the Bodh. (Susma)


Yes the Dalai Lama has and had recollections of former incarnations. Though again no Buddhist believes in reincarnation in the Hindu sense, but there is a teaching of rebirth. It's not a matter of belief though as Buddhism asks us to find reality, not to believe.

No, it's not a matter of belief... I guess in my confusion I must admit that I am not permeable to this kind of exposition. Woe is me. (Susma)


My ending observation: Anyway, except for recurring setbacks, mankind seems to manage moving ahead in the course of time, something like two steps forward, half a step backward -- even without finding the reality of the rebirth of the Bodh which is not a matter of belief.

I think just the same, on the emotional plane, I can accept the circularity of Zenmark:

. . .

Buddhism is a way to know, not a set of beliefs. Faith in Buddhist terms is confidence that there is such a thing as enlightenment and that it is possible for all human beings to experience that enlightenment. Nothing else is a matter of faith. After some practice it's seen that indeed there is enlightenment and therefore it becomes part of one's experience.

. . .

I think I can feel his thoughts but I can't intellectualize them.


Susma Rio Sep

[Blue]

If we have past lives ....

I have yet to see or hear any evidence that is cool, objective and empirically sound that there is such a phenomena.

If anyone has any, I would like to to be referred to it, as I can find none in this long thread.

Thanks.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Blue

If we have past lives ....

I have yet to see or hear any evidence that is cool, objective and empirically sound that there is such a phenomena.

You may find it's a while before you live to see the process described in Scientific American.

[Ostrich]

Eh...check your star chart.



*earp*

[spiritman51]

I like the idea that all our past, present and future lives are all concurrent in the Universal Now and are expressions of one core life. This theory is discussed in the "Seth Material". I'm not sure if I got it right, but I know Seth talks about individuals being able to go back in time and heal relationships and change situations using this spiral like model of time. It's been a long time since I read the Seth books. The Seth Material was channeled by Jane Roberts. Seth was the channeled being in the books. I guess I'll read them again.

[ssake]

I haven't been able to read all the posts yet, but I did notice someone mentioning the California/Virginia study. This is the Millboro study conducted by Dr. Marge Rieder. Her books, Mission to Millboro and Return to Millboro are available at Blue Dolphin Publishing and on Amazon.com. You can see an unpublished documentary segment in streaming video on my website, at http://www.ial.goldthread.com/clips.html (audio interview available for dialup connection also). I investigated her research very thoroughly as I was intending to include the interview in my documentary on reincarnation. I spent two days assisting her in her research in the Millboro area on two different occasions. I am convinced it's a genuine study without any deliberate fraud. Occasionally I thought some of the conclusions were a bit premature, but some of the evidence was extremely solid and speaks for itself. She tried to bring in professional archaeologists (sp?) but the town prevented it, banned her from returning, and even tried to destroy evidence.

[taijasi]

I thought I might add to the discussion that to some folks, past lives are both a fact and a necessity. Everything else in nature occurs in cycles, including change in the physical world (aka, evolution), psychological growth, cultural development, and the rise & fall of entire civilizations. Why should the progress of the human spirit be any different?

Further, wouldn't it be a tremendous waste if we lived our lives only to perish in a theological hell, cooked up by the clergy to scare the meek into tithing to the "Church" ... or if all of the learning and progress we made during physical incarnation were suddenly lost at the moment of death, like the light of a candle - blown out, leaving darkness forever. Absurd! The Light (an archetypal symbol of the perennial Consciousness itself) will return, albeit to a new candle. Look up Ben Franklin's epitaph.

Plenty of people remember previous incarnations. Although I don't think these memories are always 100% accurate, neither is my memory of what I had for lunch two weeks ago. So let's not argue that most folks don't recall previous lives. Of course we don't. Different brain, different memories. Still, the Alaya consciousness (storehouse of memories & accomplishments) can be tapped. We can remember not only our own previous lives, but those of other people as well. Hmmm, this begs the question, "Who's doing the remembering?" ... or "Who/what am I?"

For absolute proof of the existence of a Soul, or of past lives, we must seek ardently and open-mindedly. Seek not to prove or disprove ... seek Truth. I am convinced, from my own search, that you will find what you seek. As long as we are clinging to one belief, our mind is closed to another. We have a hard time accepting things when they don't fit our preconceptions.

It's odd - I almost get the feeling sometimes that people would rather discover or prove their own mortality, and their own limitations. I am not unfamiliar with this tendency. As I have been remonished many times, "Argue for your limitations, and they're yours!" Hmmm ...

I posit that true investigation requires the willing suspension of disbelief. This doesn't mean total, blind credulity or gullibility, nor does it rule out healthy skepticism. It just means to consider all the facts (an ever-increasing pool), and to always be willing to revise our judgment or ruling.

Andrew