Palestinians Tear Down Border Wall

[Pathless]

Today thousands of Palestinians are crossing over to Egypt and back to buy food after Hamas militants destroyed parts of a wall erected by Israel to seperate the two countries.

Originally Posted by Gazans Knock Down Border, Flee to Egypt

Tens of thousands of Palestinians on foot and on donkey carts poured into Egypt from Gaza Wednesday after masked gunmen used land mines to blast down a seven-mile barrier dividing the border town of Rafah.

The border breach was a dramatic protest against the closure of the impoverished Palestinian territory imposed last week by Israel.

Jubilant men and women crossed unhindered by border controls over the toppled corrugated metal along sections of the barrier, carrying goats, chickens and crates of Coca-Cola. Some brought back televisions, car tires and cigarettes and one man even bought a motorcycle. Vendors sold soft drinks and baked goods to the crowds.

Gazans Knock Down Border, Flee to Egypt
Palestinians rush into Egypt through wall breach - International Herald Tribune

[bob x]

Turns out the Egyptians don't want the Palestinians either.

[Tao_Equus]

Think you'l find the majority of Egyptians want to give a lot more support to them than their corrupt American bought leadership.

[Raksha]

Tao and everyone,

I haven't been following the situation in Gaza too carefully until yesterday, when I opened the paper and there was this picture of them pouring through the breach in the wall to buy food. I was shocked! I thought to myself, "What is this, the bleeping Warsaw ghetto all over again?"

1.5 million Palestinians, all packed into this small area like sardines...and without food, water, electricity??? I'm on Rabbi Lerner's e-mail list so there were several new e-mails explaining the background and the fact that it's basically "collective punishment" for the shelling of the neighboring town of Sderot by Hamas, which has apparently been going on for some time.

Okay, but what's the idea of taking it out on civilians? Most of the people who are suffering have nothing to do with Hamas. I have to think the Israelis have collectively lost their minds, as well as any sense of decency they were born with, except of course for the ones in the peace movement.

I read in a number of sources that Hamas proposed a cease-fire about a month ago, but the Israeli government turned it down, although two cabinet members were in favor of it. Does anyone have any idea WHY? What rationale did they give for rejecting the cease-fire?

--Linda

[bob x]

Originally Posted by Raksha

Most of the people who are suffering have nothing to do with Hamas.

Uh, most of them VOTED for Hamas.
It would be very saintly of Israel to continue providing charity to their enemies, but they are not saintly. Israel would prefer to have nothing more to do with them. If the Gazans want to trade with Israel, they will have to stop shooting rockets, of course; if they want nothing more to do with Israel, they can have their wish. If the Arabs profess to have such sympathy for the Palestinians, then let them trade with them or give them charity or both.
I agree with Tao that probably most of the people in Egypt take a very different view than the Mubarak government does. This will probably force Mubarak to shift position rather than face destabilization. Gaza would be better off within Egypt as some kind of autonomous region than as a mini-state; but that is too sensible, so it won't happen.

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Raksha,

Originally Posted by Raksha

What rationale did they give for rejecting the cease-fire?

--Linda

There is no rationale outside of the fear that should peace suddenly happen, then billions of American taxpayers dollars would cease to flow into Israel.

Tao

[Muslimwoman]

I wonder what the US would have said if the UK had put a blockade on the whole of Southern Ireland during the troubles there and not allowed food or fuel in?

How would they have responded to women and children dying at checkpoints because they could not get to hospital?

Would they have supported the UK's right to protect it's citizens from bomb attacks by cutting off food and energy supplies?

Would they provide billions in armaments so we could defend ourselves against these terrorists?

Do you think they would have supported the UK if they had punished the Irish people for acts committed by terrorists in their name?

Oh wait a minute, no, the US supported the IRA, invited them to the White House and raised funds to help them bomb British citizens.

Get your head out of your behind Bob and find a little humanity (you can look it up in the dictionary).

Yes Egyptian people support the plight of the Palestinian civilian population but then so does any decent human being.

[flowperson]

Or maybe the Palestinians were once encouraged to hold a "democratic" election and did so and elected a Hamas government. And then the big guys who had been encouraging them to democratically elect their own governmnent turned their collective backs on the Palestinians when the results came out as they had anticipated all along?

Let's see, just how do you spell "hypocrisy'?

flow....

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Raksha

"What is this, the bleeping Warsaw ghetto all over again?"

as salaam aleykum Linda

My apologies, we have not spoken before and Bob gets me a little riled on this subject.

My name is Sally and I am a British convert to Islam now living in Egypt, so I have a foot in both camps.

Originally Posted by Raksha

"I'm on Rabbi Lerner's e-mail list so there were several new e-mails explaining the background and the fact that it's basically "collective punishment" for the shelling of the neighboring town of Sderot by Hamas, which has apparently been going on for some time.

May I ask was Rabbi Lerner defending 'collective punishment' against civilians? Not that I would defend rockets firing into Israel either but just curious.

Originally Posted by Raksha

"Most of the people who are suffering have nothing to do with Hamas.

The elections in Palestine were as follows:

Gaza turnout of voting population 75%
Wet Bank turnout of voting population 73%

Hamas won 44.45% of the vote
Fatah won 41.43% of the vote

Since the elections polls have suggested that as many as 2/3 of Palestinians support a 2 state solution, with acceptance of Israels right to exist. However, most still support a peace agreement wherein Israel return to the 1967 borders (which would mean removing some Jewish settlements on that land). But you are right, a majority of Palestinians do not get up in the morning and strap rockets to their backs.

Originally Posted by Raksha

I have to think the Israelis have collectively lost their minds, as well as any sense of decency they were born with, except of course for the ones in the peace movement.

I think the same can be said for both sides, however they are at least close enough to have the excuse of being blinded by the day to day events. The US imo have no such excuse and their continued unconditional support of Israels actions just drives Israel on. If the US relaxed it's support and supply of arms to Israel you can bet your bottom dollar they would reach a peace agreement in a heartbeat.

Originally Posted by Raksha

I read in a number of sources that Hamas proposed a cease-fire about a month ago, but the Israeli government turned it down, although two cabinet members were in favor of it.

They have proposed a number of ceasefires and each one has been rejected. One of the major difficulties is that Hamas do not control the Islamic Jihad and when Hamas said it would negotiate a truce with Israel, IJ rejected it.

However on the other side of the fence (literally) Israel is not attempting to find a solution. In 2006 there was a 3 month ceasefire, where no rockets were fired and yet Israel continued its attacks on the Palestinians, saying it needed to ensure militants were unable to begin attacks again. That was the time to grab some peace deal with both hands but they failed miserably.


From an entirely humanitarian point of view - Israel have now imprisoned a nation of people, cutting off basic supplies. They go into the area and execute people, without trial or evidence. So to me it is the international community that has gone insane, because we are standing idly by and letting it happen.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

From an entirely humanitarian point of view - Israel have now imprisoned a nation of people, cutting off basic supplies. They go into the area and execute people, without trial or evidence. So to me it is the international community that has gone insane, because we are standing idly by and letting it happen.

Bravo!!

[greymare]

I must be totally ignorant. I need a thorough explanation on this gaza strip, the fighting and all the ****. Ill tell you why.... we get bits on the news about "there has once again been violence in the Gaza strip"..... and to be honest, most of us tune out. Ill have to research this more because I need to know where and why it all started. and why my country isnt helping out. who is in the wrong. who is in the right. (is it that there is nothing in it for us?)

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Grey, it is very difficult to find the truth as each side has their own version (as always). As Harry S Truman said "No two historians ever agree on what happened, and the damn thing is they both think they're telling the truth."

Here are a couple of links, from different sides, to get you started. I try to read everything from any group to get a better picture, I find the truth is usually in the middle somewhere.

This is a Jewish peace organisation and they supply some very useful 'on the ground' information.

B'Tselem - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

One of the biggest misconceptions about the troubles is that the 'west' suddenly decided after WWII to give the land to the Jews in order to make a homeland (the implication being it was recompence for the holocaust). Scroll down to the Balfour Agreement section and you can see that the Brits agred to this in 1917, at the request of a group of Zionists in the UK.

Brief History of of Palestine, Israel and the Israeli Palestinian Conflict (Arab-Israeli conflict, Middle East Conflict)

This is a brief history by the UN

HISTORY OF THE PALESTINE PROBLEM

There are some great maps here

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/vMaps

The reason you keep seeing the date 1967 on the maps is that is why they are still fighting. In 1949 the land was divided, both sides weren't happy but borders had to be placed somewhere. Then in 1967 Israel captures a lot of land, they expelled the people that lived there and against international law they put Israeli settlements on the land (this is a no-no, you can take land in war but you are not allowed to expand your settlements (towns) so your people can live on that land).

Since then the palestinians have fought to regain that land and insist no peace agreent can be made until Israel returns to the 1949 borders and removes the settlements. Israel refuse to do so (largely because the land has water, which is quite a rare commodity over here - hence the map showing the water courses and why Israel cling desperately to the Gollan Heights (see the Israeli/Lebanon wars for that one).

You can see from the maps how small the Gaza strip is (360 sq km), so it is very easily controlled. The sea, up to the Egypt border is ctrolled by Israeli gunships and the small border with Egypt is the only non-Israeli way in or out.

Egypt have received huge political pressure from the US & Israel to keep the border closed, with the threat of eonomic sanctions if they don't - so puts Egypt in a rotten position.

[flowperson]

Salaam MW...I have always had the greatest respect for
"give-em-hell-Harry", but I would suggest that the definition of history in the past has always been "Whichever white guy wins the argument". My impression is that this started to fray around the edges with the overthrow of Apartheid in S. Africa and is now changing fairly rapidly.

flow....

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Salaam MW...I have always had the greatest respect for
"give-em-hell-Harry", but I would suggest that the definition of history in the past has always been "Whichever white guy wins the argument". My impression is that this started to fray around the edges with the overthrow of Apartheid in S. Africa and is now changing fairly rapidly.

flow....

Salaam Flow big buddy, I wasn't quoting Truman as a means for supporting him

I just think it is too easy with such issues to get sucked into believing the propaganda of one side or the other, when the truth is often in the Middle. I agree with Truman that the saddest aspect is that both sides believe they are fundamentally right and telling the truth, when in fact they are both wrong on certain issues and both big fat fibbers!!

[bob x]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I wonder what the US would have said if the UK had put a blockade on the whole of Southern Ireland during the troubles there and not allowed food or fuel in?

Britain has no OBLIGATION to send food or fuel to the Irish. Britain has no OBLIGATION to trade with the Irish. Britain trades with Ireland because it has chosen to do so. During the early 1940's, Britain did not trade with Germany, for obvious reasons.
If Egypt wants to trade with Gaza, or to send them charity, Egypt should do so.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

One of the major difficulties is that Hamas do not control the Islamic Jihad

Then Hamas cannot be considered a "government". There cannot be any "independence" for Palestine until they show a capacity for self-government. Annexation to Egypt would make a great deal of sense (which is why it will not happen ), or some kind of protectorate/trusteeship over Gaza, but Egypt does not seem to want that kind of responsibility (Israel expected to hand Gaza back to Egypt along with the Sinai, after the Camp David Accords; but Egypt refused to take it).

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Egypt have received huge political pressure from the US & Israel to keep the border closed

This is true in the case of the US: and I consider this stupid (what else is new from the Bush administration?). Israel is conflicted on the subject: some officials, as well as unofficial people, have expressed the same opinion that I have, that Egypt should go right ahead and supply Gaza, and assume the responsibility that this implies. The Palestinians can screw it all up by smuggling some bombers through the Sinai (Egypt most decidedly does not want to be held responsible for that!), but so far, they have not done so; maybe some conception of what is actually in their interests is sinking in.
I applaud Hamas, for once: this is the first time I have ever heard of Palestinians blowing something up where it actually benefits other Palestinians, instead of just doing harm for the sake of harm.