Ouiji Boards?

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by bgruagach

That's pretty talented to come through a ouija board like that, even if they misspelled your name.

What doesn't it have trouble spelling? Text like that freaking hurts my eyes... "biskit" -please- go to the freaking effort of using a spell/grammar checker or something, LOLZ KTHX bai bai!........

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by mee

spirit mediums are mentioned in the bible , thats what i like about the bible good and bad things happen , but it doesnt mean that the spirit mediums are doing good in Gods eyes because God tells people what is right and what is wrong in his eyes. and getting in contact with so called dead people is a thing that God tells us is wrong . modern inventions are not wrong if they are not used to go against the true Gods commandments . those boards would be doing just that.

So you didn't really mean it when you said previously that if something isn't in the Bible then it must be bad?

Not everyone believes that the Ouija or other forms of divination have anything to do with spirits or dead people. (It's that little word "ideomotor.") Does that mean that people who use the Ouija or other forms of divination but who don't believe in spirits are permitted by the Bible?

The expectation of using the Bible as the final authority, and not some other holy scripture, has still not been explained. For non-Christians the Bible has no more authority than any other so-called holy scripture. Why should we believe any of it?

[17th Angel]

Bgru, place yourself into the -exact- same position as Mee... You there? Now, see this from his p.o.v. You are that sure about this almighty god and he is exactly like it says in the bible, nothing else... Then of course you are going to see most things that are not within the bible as important or of major concern... god's word is all that matters and doing his will.

[mee]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Hmm, let me think......because you keep going on about, and quoting from one book. The bible. Yeah, I think that was the giveaway....

thats because the bible is the best one to quote, other books are manmade and not inspired of God. the bible is Gods letter to us.
It is only reasonable that our loving Creator would provide a book of instruction and guidance for mankind. And do you not agree that humans need guidance?

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by mee

thats because the bible is the best one to quote, other books are manmade and not inspired of God. the bible is Gods letter to us.
It is only reasonable that our loving Creator would provide a book of instruction and guidance for mankind. And do you not agree that humans need guidance?

Man you always seem like your taking a lecture.... lol

[mee]

Originally Posted by bgruagach

So you didn't really mean it when you said previously that if something isn't in the Bible then it must be bad?

Not everyone believes that the Ouija or other forms of divination have anything to do with spirits or dead people. (It's that little word "ideomotor.") Does that mean that people who use the Ouija or other forms of divination but who don't believe in spirits are permitted by the Bible?

The expectation of using the Bible as the final authority, and not some other holy scripture, has still not been explained. For non-Christians the Bible has no more authority than any other so-called holy scripture. Why should we believe any of it?

so what is the purpose of one of those boards ? as far as i know it is to get in contact with so called dead people so that would be rebelling against Gods commands . regardless of if it really works or not . Gods commands in the bible are always for our benefit...

Taste and see that Jehovah is good, O YOU people;
Happy is the able-bodied man that takes refuge in him.psalm 34;8

All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
2 timothy 3;16 -17

O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea. ISAIAH 48;18 Its all in the bible

[mee]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Man you always seem like your taking a lecture.... lol

Lectures are used to convey critical information,

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by mee

so what is the purpose of one of those boards ? as far as i know it is to get in contact with so called dead people so that would be rebelling against Gods commands . regardless of if it really works or not . Gods commands in the bible are always for our benefit...

Some people use divination techniques, including things that rely on the ideomotor effect such as the Ouija board and pendulums or dowsing rods as a way to communicate with their own subconscious. When one is faced with problems frequently the best advice is that which comes from within.

It is rarely wise to accept advice from any source on blind faith. Did the Divine really give us the gift of reason in order to reject that gift?

It is also rather unconvincing when circular logic is used to prove that something is true. If we're supposed to believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God because it says so in the Bible, we're using circular (inherently faulty) logic. If that logic is to hold, then any book could include a passage that says, "This book is absolutely, eternally, infallibly true and anyone who says it isn't is a liar" and we would be bound to consider it accurate.

[bgruagach]

For those who are interested, there is an interesting collection of logical fallacies with examples and explanations of why they are not valid logic at Logical Fallacies .info

[enlightenment]

Originally Posted by mee

thats because the bible is the best one to quote, other books are manmade and not inspired of God. the bible is Gods letter to us.
It is only reasonable that our loving Creator would provide a book of instruction and guidance for mankind. And do you not agree that humans need guidance?

Mee, the bible itself is little more than a book written by man as well.

You say that these men, these writers, were 'inspired' by god, yes..?

Uh huh.

And can you prove this, Mee? After all, it makes such fantastic claims, supernatural claims, that one would think, that in all fairness, the burden of proof lies with those that make the claims, and not the other way around, non..?

Remind me, btw, since I am assuming that unlike Judaism or Islam, you most likely think that jesus was the biological son of this god, remind me, how much of the bible did jesus write..? I mean, of all the men that were 'inspired' to write the bible, who more so than he? And yet, there is nothing, not one line or sentence which jesus himself sat down and wrote..

Don't you find that a little odd, Mee..?

[AndrewX]

Since this is a forum about Ouija boards and their use, I'm going to go out on a limb, and explain exactly what I believe occurs in many cases ... when a group of sincere individuals uses a board. I agree with all that you've said, Ben, and I know that often enough it's the subconscious we're getting in touch with, yet I do believe that we can also contact the deceased, or the discarnate ... even potentially non-human spirits.

What I'm afraid mee doesn't understand, is that all three of the latter cases CAN BE JUST AS GOOD, and desirable, as they can bad, and undesirable. My only regret is that there is so much mumbo-jumbo out there, so much ignorance, superstition, and misinformation/disinformation ... that, much like in UFO circles, people tend to see this as an all-or-nothing prospect. Either ouija boards and their use is 100% good, accurate, acceptable, etc. ... or we have mee's type of fearful, suspicious, superstitious paranoia about it, which is no better than the skeptic's charge - that's it's all, 100% BUNK.

So what do I think? Simple ...

In many cases, the ideomotor effect is definitely, or most likely, tapping in to one's own subconscious - OR perhaps, superconscious, if you will. I distinguish, because I believe the real goal, in cases of Divination, is the latter. Subconscious influence, in terms of the ideomotor effect, will not necessarily give us helpful, accurate or inspired/inspiring advice ... whereas I believe that superconscious influence will do so. This is because we are seeking contact, via a ouija board or whatever, with our Soul (Higher Self, Buddha Nature, Christ Self, Inner Guide, Inner Light, etc.).

Now if one looks at the early days of the Theosophical Movement, leading up to the establishing of the Theosophical Society in 1875, one can see that H.P. Blavatsky had a great interest in Spiritualism. This was - and is - a Movement unto itself, being inspired by one of our world's greatest Adepts, Master Hilarion (Whom mee reads about in his bible as St. Paul). This does not mean that any time a bunch of folks sit down to have a seance, they are automatically in the right ... nor does it mean that contacting the recently deceased is always okay. Arguably, it is SELDOM okay, and even then, only conditionally.

But anyone who is familiar with the Master H., and with the esoteric teaching on the Seven Rays, will likely also know that Master H. is the 5th Ray Lord ... the 5th Ray being that of Concrete Science. This has everything to do with the Scientific Revolution, and everything to do with Humanity's own, inherent need, as a 4th and a 5th Ray entity, to learn about and understand things scientifically.

The inspiration behind the Spiritualistic Movement, of the 19th Century both in America and in Europe, is thus - largely - the Master H., PRECISELY in an effort to help us with a SOLID, SCIENTIFIC understanding of "the other side" ... or, what lies beyond the veil of death. Now gee, let's see, mee ... it was, in fact, St. Paul the Initiate who dictated the Book of Revelation to the advanced Disciple, John the Beloved. So, if you want to blather on about how reading your Bible is the only way YOU feel comfortable learning about something like DEATH ... then that's fine.

In fact, doing so just shows (ME) that you prefer to study the earlier writings of the same MASTER ... Whose LATER writings, and dictations, appeal to others. Hmmm ...

Have I lost you yet?

Well, sure enough, SOMETIMES, when a group of open-minded individuals sits down at the table with a ouija board, if there is the right type of psycho-spiritual alchemy, let us say ... THEN there will be, sure enough, an opening to the astral (or higher) world(s). This allows for communication with entities that may be:

1. recently deceased humans.
2. discarnate humans (in the higher worlds, possibly even Masters).
3. non-human entities, never have been human or physically incarnate.

The idea to communicate with recently deceased humans needs to be carefully considered, and as Madame Blavatsky continued to work under the instruction of her Teachers, she soon found that only a small number of Spiritualists, or folks interested in that type of spirit communication, could actually make good esoteric students - and move on to what she had to offer.

This was because it becomes vital to understand enough about the nature of our after-death state(s), to ACCEPT that not everyone SHOULD communicate, after death, with those of us still in incarnation. It CAN be harmful, and it CAN lead to undesirable results. The great irony, of course, is that the Bible is FULL of cases, in which PRECISELY Spirit Communication is happening! But I guess we'll just have to overlook that one, for the moment ...

Anyone interested can read more about the Spiritualistic Movement at Wikipedia ...

Personally, I don't think folks like mee should ever sit down at a ouija board. The reason should be evident. If I am focused, already, on `demons and devils,' then will it be any real surprise when this is EXACTLY what I bring through?

Too much television, and overactive imaginations, have led to these crazy ideas that Hell itself is going to spawn before us in our living room, and while that makes for cheesy Constantine-like, Keanu Reeves movies, and gives me & 17th stuff to snicker about, it's not exactly what happens even when ouija board experiences end up negative. But unquestionably, negative or undesirable influences can sometimes - even often enough - get contacted, though this is owing largely to the very character, motive and circumstances of the users of the board, and in such cases, we pretty much have instant karma ... you get what you ASKED for!

Even here, circumstances seldom get out of hand, though we can end up with a genuine haunting, or an excess of negativity focused upon, and through, the aura of the especially vulnerable ... and this just makes things difficult, until the person, or persons, right the wrong they have set in motion. Even when their mistake was innocent enough, they must close the door they have unintentionally opened ... but anyone who is familiar at all with esoteric or occult Law(s) will recognize that Nature itself, allows for just these kinds of mistakes.

What we are dealing with, after all, are the occasional `bad apple' type of discarnate humans, either those with a heavy, negative karma - who have recently transitioned and perhaps become temporarily `stuck' ... or yet, sometimes it is entities in the third category, consisting of the lower orders of mischievous, nature spirits, or elementals. Mee, you might try familiarizing yourself with OTHER WRITINGS than your Holy Bible, if you wish to truly understand all this.

Should your wish be to simply communicate that we should be CAREFUL as we use Divinatory aids, then I think you've made your point. I've echoed it. "Fools rush in, where Angels fear to tread." Yet I ask you, mee, what do you know about the lower orders of the devas? About the thought-forms, which you yourself CREATE, and strengthen, and energize, when you imagine DEMONS and DEVILS and things that go BUMP in the night?

Did you know, even, that your thoughts might be the very ones which HAUNT the poor, innocent victims of a seance gone wrong? Hmmm. You don't think so? Well let me ask you ... do you ever get angry? Do you EVER, even for a moment, become fearful or fretful?

We just don't realize, most of us, that we build the world of our thoughts, and of our fears, and of 99.9% of the negativity that is out there, WITH OUR OWN MINDS, and emotions, and imaginations. So, too, do we construct the kinds of thoughts, and uplifiting emotional states, which free Humanity from our enslavement to the worlds of matter ... and darkness, and ignorance.

None of us can say, No! Not I! I am exempt!

Yet the 2nd category of Beings that might be contacted via ouija boards, or even at a seance, which rightfully also ought to include the Higher Orders of the Devas (or Angels, and ArchAngels), are largely free from all the normal limitations that affact 99.9% of Humanity. And WHEN our motives are pure enough, and WHEN the circumstances are just right, I KNOW - and do not have to speculate - that yes, even a ouija board, can put a person in touch ... with a Mystic or a Saint, an Angel Teacher or a Master Guide, and even - if we are so lucky - with the Christ (or World Teacher) Himself.

My own experience, I have already offered, as testimony, and confirmation. I think the Jehovah's Witnesses call this WITNESSING. And I AM, a living witness, to what I have just said. Either we then come to understand the Wisdom of our Bibles (whatever our religion may be, and whatever book we may look to for guidance), or else we are barking up the wrong tree. And as I have said, you can quote that thing SIX WAYS FROM SUNDAY ... and still, miss the point.

Experience sometimes IS the best teacher, yet I don't feel, just because there are people who can consciously ASTRAL TRAVEL (leave their bodies), that I too, must learn to do this. Remember, Fools rush in, where Angels fear to tread. No one is saying that you have to use a ouija board, mee, since it makes you so uncomfortable. I have already given you, and others, several good reasons why THAT WOULD BE UNWISE. You yourself recognize this, even if all you are doing is using a circular reference ... for your guide.

And you may even know others who have had a bad experience, for the reasons I have mentioned, I think you'll find. All the more reason, why you are suspicious, and cautious ... and there's nothing wrong with playing it safe.

But to impose your reasons for your OWN wariness upon OTHERS .... that's just unhelpful, and awfully presumptuous. I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, so it's NOT EVEN REMOTELY close, to being sound advice, offered from someone of LIKE MIND. The best it can be, is the BEST advice you know how to give ... and because of that, because this is a DISCUSSION group, a set of forums, where you have OTHER understandings, and interpretations, and spiritual paths, I have tried to show why it can be alright, even helpful, to use a ouija board (!) - even as I agree with much that Ben has shared, and with what others have shared.

Thus, I have tried to allow for your understanding, mee, and to make it clear that I think we all have a degree of familiarity with your background, and your (presumed) intentions ... yet I would do everything I'm able to remove the superstition, and bring these kinds of things to LIGHT, as best I'm able, because we aren't meant to remain in darkness (ignorance) about them. And even if what I have to share is literally, just ONE, tiny experience, it is nonetheless my TESTIMONY, it is DIRECT experience ... and remember, it only takes ONE exception, to DISPROVE the rule, inasmuch as there might even be such a thing, as you seem to believe, mee, about not using divination, because ALL you can contact are `evil spirits.'

It comes back to MOTIVE ... and if you think that everyone who studies the Bible has equally pure, spotlessly pure MOTIVE, then think again. Shall I rattle on about how wrong it is to study the BIBLE, because you might contact an evil spirit?

If that disturbs you, or strikes you as odd, then I would suggest you don't actually know the least thing about modern (`New Age') forms of Divination ... and for that matter, I'm not sure you know much about the Divination of the Bible, either - as I say, that book being FULL of it. Err, full of Divination, I mean.

I challenge you to respond to what I've shared WITHOUT quoting the Bible.

Tell me something in your own thoughts. Dialogue without calling upon the authority of a 2000 year old text, which really doesn't have any direct bearing on a discussion under ALT-MAGICK, anyway!

Just talk about your own experiences, if you like, or even share those of someone you KNOW (rather than heard about) ... and as you do so, look to my post, and see if it hasn't been covered by #1 or #3, or - perhaps - by #2. It's either one of those, or the person's own super/sub-conscious, I will argue. Can you prove me wrong?

Ben, et al, all I was really going to say, was that I think even in the cases of the ideomotor effect, what we sometimes have, is the Higher influence of a `Noble Spirit' - be that Human, formerly Human, or Angelic/Devic - and thus, the real communication is taking place beyond our physical awareness, and the way this reaches us, is - of course - the ideomotor effect, which we see via the board, pendulum, etc. The source of the information, is what is external, outside our immediate awareness ... yet it is `OUR hand(s) which guide the planchette or pendulum ...

My own belief is that the best way to use a ouija board, is triangulated. That is, have THREE people, always, rather than oneself alone, or two, or more than three. This is for esoteric reasons, and allows for the most stable arrangement of inherent, or natural forces/influences ... preventing two people for kind of, subconsciously battling over the answer (Yes/No questions are best to start out with), and actually it also references the Biblical statement made by Christ Himself, which I think is esoterically true regardless of one's religion, and regardless of how we recognize the underlying meaning of "In My Name," so long as we actually understand that.

This, of course, is the difference between Spirit, and dead letter.

[mee]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Mee, the bible itself is little more than a book written by man as well.

You say that these men, these writers, were 'inspired' by god, yes..?

thats what the bible says .

(2 Peter 1:21) For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.

[mee]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

we have mee's type of fearful, suspicious, superstitious paranoia about it, which is no better than the skeptic's charge - that's it's all, 100% BUNK..












Personally, I don't think folks like mee should ever sit down at a ouija board. The reason should be evident. If I am focused, already, on `demons and devils,' then will it be any real surprise when this is EXACTLY what I bring through?




Mee, you might try familiarizing yourself with OTHER WRITINGS than your Holy Bible, if you wish to truly understand all this.

or we could have a person (mee)who is just doing and sticking to the guidance laid down in the bible . and fearing the true God has more importance than anything else. when i say fearing the true God i am meaning having respect for him ,and not wanting to displease him . not a morbid fear of him. so if the God of the bible says dont have any dealings with spirit mediums or trying to get incontact with spirits so be it .


yes i do agree that folks who are tryng to stick to Gods way of doing things should not sit down at one of those boards because the demons are out to take down anyone who is inline with the true God. but as we all know satan is an angel of light and he does not always work in the way we think he will . just the fact that a person like me has sat down to partake is enough for satan to rub his hands togeather so to speak . it would mean that he has one up on the true God because the person who claims to be a person of the true God has fell under the whiles of satan, who is in opposition to the God of the bible . in fact he doesnt need to make any contact at all . thats because he has got you to go against Gods commands. that is all the angels in opposition to God want.
now when the time of their abyssing is so near, they must be more vicious and desperate than ever. These spirit desperadoes are out to accomplish all the wreckage among mankind they can, especially to crush Christian personalities, since they are anti-God, anti-Kingdom, anti-Christ, anti-all who are Jehovah’s Christian witnesses. (Rev. 12:17) so we see the urgency of knowing how to repel the attack of wicked spirit forces.


its the fact that many in this world are not familier with the big issue of universal sovreignty that people are doing things just as the angels in opposition to God are wanting ........... so Gods word the bible is for our benefit .

[enlightenment]

Originally Posted by mee

thats what the bible says .

(2 Peter 1:21) For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.

Well, that's proof of nowt, Mee.

That's like me, writing a book today, putting whatever I wish in it, then adding the handy caveat that what I, and my fellow authors have written, was inspired by god, and if you don't believe that, then tough. Meh, that's not even close to convincing.

[mee]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Well, that's proof of nowt, Mee.

That's like me, writing a book today, putting whatever I wish in it, then adding the handy caveat that what I, and my fellow authors have written, was inspired by god, and if you don't believe that, then tough. Meh, that's not even close to convincing.

choices choices choices, we can choose to take on board the bible and its teachings or we can turn aside from it . for me i like the way that bible prophecy always comes true . in the past , and even now bible prophecy is being fullfilled. and future prophecies are sure to come true . there is no other book like the bible . ......wisdom from God

Besides history, the Bible contains an abundance of wise sayings and counsel.