Other Christianities

[Manji2012]

Where their Christianities around the same time as today's Christianity that did not believe Jesus was the son of God? Where their groups who claimed they followed Jesus' teachings where were about finding the Christ within and was not about believing in Jesus as the only way for salvation?

Is it true that their texts were destroyed by the Catholic Church and banned?

Are the Four Gospels older than all other Christian documents? If so, is this because the other Christian Documents were destroyed? Could that be a possible explanation for that?

[seattlegal]

The Gospels are not the earliest Christian scriptures. Here's a handy timeline and resource:

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

Where their Christianities around the same time as today's Christianity that did not believe Jesus was the son of God?

Well, that would make such a religion something other than Christianity, would it not? (Since the rock/foundation/cornerstone of Christianity is the divinity of Christ.

Matt 16:13-20
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

[gp1628]

No he is right. They would have existed prior to the books of the bible being finalized. There were likely to have been sects which considered him to have been a prophet, or even a leader, but not necessarily THE son of God.

Im guessing those might be grouped in with the gnostic sects as far as searching for them would go.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by gp1628

No he is right. They would have existed prior to the books of the bible being finalized. There were likely to have been sects which considered him to have been a prophet, or even a leader, but not necessarily THE son of God.

Im guessing those might be grouped in with the gnostic sects as far as searching for them would go.

In order to fit into the Christianity category, would not there have to be a Christ? I suppose that there might be a religion that identifies someone other than Jesus as the Christ, that could fit into the category of Christianity.

[dauer]

There is a place in the Talmud where a Christian group is criticized. The belif of the criticized group is that Jesus was an angel. It may be that the sages of the Talmud were either misinformed or intentionally distorting the views of that group as a matter of polemic but it's also possible it refers to a particular group of Christians.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

In order to fit into the Christianity category, would not there have to be a Christ? I suppose that there might be a religion that identifies someone other than Jesus as the Christ, that could fit into the category of Christianity.

You bring up a good point, Seattlegal. I do tend to think that just what the term "Christ" means though can cover a wide range of turf.

Originally Posted by gp1628

No he is right. They would have existed prior to the books of the bible being finalized. There were likely to have been sects which considered him to have been a prophet, or even a leader, but not necessarily THE son of God.

Im guessing those might be grouped in with the gnostic sects as far as searching for them would go.

Good to hear from you, Gandalf. From what I gather, there were a number of differing points of view as to what it meant to be a Christ. It actually seems to be the more Pagan view to elevate the Messianic figure to the status of G-d. This argument (G-d or not G-d?) was actually at the heart of the Arian-Athanasian controversy and extends much further than Gnosticism. The Coptic church of Egypt for instance, according to some material I found.

Originally Posted by dauer

There is a place in the Talmud where a Christian group is criticized. The belif of the criticized group is that Jesus was an angel. It may be that the sages of the Talmud were either misinformed or intentionally distorting the views of that group as a matter of polemic but it's also possible it refers to a particular group of Christians.

This would be interesting to read. I have heard a number of other views allegedly put forth from Judaism, chiefly that the disciples stole his body fromthe tomb. Any merit to this? Do you have any other traditional views of Jesus from the Jewish POV?

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Manji2012

Where their Christianities around the same time as today's Christianity that did not believe Jesus was the son of God?

I think you are asking if there were Christian groups who believed differently than what was established in Rome around 325 AD, yes? If so, the short answer is "yes."

Originally Posted by Manji2012

Where their groups who claimed they followed Jesus' teachings where were about finding the Christ within and was not about believing in Jesus as the only way for salvation?

I do not know of any. That is not to say they did not exist, but I think this is a bit more esoteric than most actually believed. But it is difficult to say; there is precious little source material, and a whole lotta psycho-babel.

Originally Posted by Manji2012

Is it true that their texts were destroyed by the Catholic Church and banned?

Were some texts destroyed? Yes. Did those texts say what you want them to say? How can we know?, they are destroyed. Did the Catholic church exercise political authority and banish other churches that disagreed with them? Yes. But the Catholic church even split among it's own, even at one time the two sides banishing each other. Politics and history, gotta luv 'em.

Originally Posted by Manji2012

Are the Four Gospels older than all other Christian documents?

No.

Originally Posted by Manji2012

If so, is this because the other Christian Documents were destroyed?

No.

Originally Posted by Manji2012

Could that be a possible explanation for that?

No. Politics is the only explanation. History is explicitly clear on this.

[dauer]

Juan, it wasn't so much about Jesus as it was a critique of a particular Christological theology. I had an online source but I can no longer locate it. That was a couple of years ago.

[Manji2012]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

The Gospels are not the earliest Christian scriptures. Here's a handy timeline and resource:

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

Thank you so much for that link, I really appreciate it. I started to read the Gospel of Thomas and it has opened and clarified my mind more about Jesus and Christianity. It has provided me with confidence. I find this Gospel very fascinating that I currently searching for some Buddhist commentaries and interpretations of the literature.

I do not know if this is true or not but, I have heard that scholars agree that we only have six sentences that can be attributed to Jesus Christ having said, maybe even less than that. With that in my mind, to open a text that might actually be words spoken by a once living and Breathing Jesus Christ is very touching to me. As I was reading it, I had the feeling that I was actually there listening to one of Jesus' sermons. That I am his disciple. As I was trying to decode the words imagining them actually be said by him, it was magical, I fell in love with it, and started to cling to Jesus. The Jesus freak within was awaken I never knew I had cause I am a Buddhist.

Some parts of the text I think can be found in the new testament if memory serves me correct. I checked the agreed on date and it seems the Gospel of Thomas is not late and about as early as even the earliest of the Four Canonized Gospels so, that makes me feel more confident that this perhaps is a very legitimate text. I guess during and after Jesus there really were various groups that different ideas about who Jesus was.

From reading some of the Gospel last night I became more confident that, perhaps Christianity is not at all about getting the right beliefs, the right, dogma, and right doctrine. No, it is about spirituality; a path of self realization. The established church just would have us think otherwise, so that we hand over our own freedom, sovereignty, and spirituality to an institution that controls us. I see the way Christianity or Bible being practiced today as a behavioral tool. If we behave good we get a reward.

The Gospel of Thomas gives me the impression that we are to took spirituality into our own hands and, when we do, we are free, empowered, and liberated.

I have heard in Buddhism there are Buddhists who elevated Buddha to status of God. I even have heard that Pure Land Buddhists believe in the Amida Buddha that, this Amida Buddha will take them to the pure land after they day. That we are saved by grace. Sounds similar to Today's Christianity.

I wonder.... Could the same sort of thing we find in Buddhism in regard to the contrast of Pure land Buddhists versus Theravada Buddhist can also be seen in Christianity as well? Some Christianities emphasized the spiritual path, maybe others were very esoteric in practicing the Jesus' highest inner teachings for the few, and others emphasizing, a more belief. The exception is that the latter, "Today's Christianity", was harshly imposed in history. If you did not agree with their doctrines, you were to be tortured and executed. All other points of view on Jesus was banned, burned, and outlawed. Therefore, we can not see the diversity in Christianity in that retrospect of spirituality versus Dogma. I think in Buddhism there was no suppressing of other ideas about Buddha, just different sects.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Manji2012

Some parts of the text I think can be found in the new testament if memory serves me correct. I checked the agreed on date and it seems the Gospel of Thomas is not late and about as early as even the earliest of the Four Canonized Gospels so, that makes me feel more confident that this perhaps is a very legitimate text. I guess during and after Jesus there really were various groups that different ideas about who Jesus was.

There are verses in the Gospel of Thomas that mirror some verses in the accepted 4 Gospels. I don't really know much about GoT, I didn't really get anything new out of it. For me it's just a curious bit of history. I think during Jesus' time he would have been around to clarify how properly to seek the Heavenly Father. So I don't think it is accurate to say there were "various" and "different" ways to follow while he was alive and shortly after. I think the variations probably came along over time, especially as the new sect of Judaism was driven into hiding by the Roman persecutions. Over the course of 250 years or so of playing hide and seek like that, I think caused a number of differing views to emerge.

Originally Posted by Manji2012

I wonder.... Could the same sort of thing we find in Buddhism in regard to the contrast of Pure land Buddhists versus Theravada Buddhist can also be seen in Christianity as well? Some Christianities emphasized the spiritual path, maybe others were very esoteric in practicing the Jesus' highest inner teachings for the few, and others emphasizing, a more belief. The exception is that the latter, "Today's Christianity", was harshly imposed in history. If you did not agree with their doctrines, you were to be tortured and executed. All other points of view on Jesus was banned, burned, and outlawed. Therefore, we can not see the diversity in Christianity in that retrospect of spirituality versus Dogma. I think in Buddhism there was no suppressing of other ideas about Buddha, just different sects.

I really don't know enough about the differing sects of Buddhism, so I would have a hard time trying to compare between the two. I think the diversity in Christianity is also in part simply the nature of human thought, as people spent time in meditation so to speak on the matter, they came to different realizations. The Protestant Reformation did a lot to help free the average person from the political demands of the Catholic church, and with that they began to think more freely again. Now, after about 500 years or so, and the rise of modern science and philosophy, a general backlash against the Catholic church and the availability of other religions (especially now with the internet), there has been a huge increase in differing viewpoints being developed and presented within the Christian faith.

As for no suppression of ideas under Buddhism...I seriously question that. What was the little incident in India that got Buddhism thrown out of the country if not suppression of ideas?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Manji2012

Thank you so much for that link, I really appreciate it. I started to read the Gospel of Thomas and it has opened and clarified my mind more about Jesus and Christianity. It has provided me with confidence. I find this Gospel very fascinating that I currently searching for some Buddhist commentaries and interpretations of the literature.

I do not know if this is true or not but, I have heard that scholars agree that we only have six sentences that can be attributed to Jesus Christ having said, maybe even less than that. With that in my mind, to open a text that might actually be words spoken by a once living and Breathing Jesus Christ is very touching to me. As I was reading it, I had the feeling that I was actually there listening to one of Jesus' sermons. That I am his disciple. As I was trying to decode the words imagining them actually be said by him, it was magical, I fell in love with it, and started to cling to Jesus. The Jesus freak within was awaken I never knew I had cause I am a Buddhist.

Some parts of the text I think can be found in the new testament if memory serves me correct. I checked the agreed on date and it seems the Gospel of Thomas is not late and about as early as even the earliest of the Four Canonized Gospels so, that makes me feel more confident that this perhaps is a very legitimate text. I guess during and after Jesus there really were various groups that different ideas about who Jesus was.

From reading some of the Gospel last night I became more confident that, perhaps Christianity is not at all about getting the right beliefs, the right, dogma, and right doctrine. No, it is about spirituality; a path of self realization. The established church just would have us think otherwise, so that we hand over our own freedom, sovereignty, and spirituality to an institution that controls us. I see the way Christianity or Bible being practiced today as a behavioral tool. If we behave good we get a reward.

The Gospel of Thomas gives me the impression that we are to took spirituality into our own hands and, when we do, we are free, empowered, and liberated.

I have heard in Buddhism there are Buddhists who elevated Buddha to status of God. I even have heard that Pure Land Buddhists believe in the Amida Buddha that, this Amida Buddha will take them to the pure land after they day. That we are saved by grace. Sounds similar to Today's Christianity.

I wonder.... Could the same sort of thing we find in Buddhism in regard to the contrast of Pure land Buddhists versus Theravada Buddhist can also be seen in Christianity as well? Some Christianities emphasized the spiritual path, maybe others were very esoteric in practicing the Jesus' highest inner teachings for the few, and others emphasizing, a more belief. The exception is that the latter, "Today's Christianity", was harshly imposed in history. If you did not agree with their doctrines, you were to be tortured and executed. All other points of view on Jesus was banned, burned, and outlawed. Therefore, we can not see the diversity in Christianity in that retrospect of spirituality versus Dogma. I think in Buddhism there was no suppressing of other ideas about Buddha, just different sects.

Manji, you might want to consider 2 Corinthians 3, and focus upon this verse in the context of the chapter:

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

What reasons might there be for this sort of liberty? Here are some other scriptures to contemplate in connection with this:

Matt 10

(excerpt)
34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
A Cup of Cold Water

40 “He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. 41 He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.”

Luke 2:25-35

(background info first)
Circumcision of Jesus

21 And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child,[e] His name was called JESUS, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.
Jesus Presented in the Temple

22 Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the law of the Lord, “Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the LORD”), 24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, “A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.”
Simeon Sees God’s Salvation

25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27 So he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, 28 he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said:
29 “ Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace,
According to Your word;
30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation
31 Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,
32 A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”

33 And Joseph and His mother marveled at those things which were spoken of Him. 34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against 35 (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

[WalkingDead]

Hello Manji2012, I'm quite new here and start to read some of the threads. This board contains many good threads raising many good questions with plenty of solid discussions. What I like about this thread, it's the way you formulate questions and then try to find the answers. Based on simple Tao (Dao) concept, it's the fascinating “way” to know or the way to learn. In gnostic term, it is not just the knowledge but also the “to know” process.

You try to digest information presented by the helpful board members, and then speak for your own views. Personally, I think this is the most important process of the “SEEKING”.

Here are some of the keys words for Wikipedia search which are related to this subject. Hopefully, they could assist the further understanding of other Christianities.

Bart D Ehrman
Early Christianity
Adoptionism
Arianism
Miaphysitism
Coptic_Orthodox
Nestorianism
Manicheanism
Montanism

Valentinus
Proselytes
Ebionites


Peace out

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Manji2012

Thank you so much for that link, I really appreciate it. I started to read the Gospel of Thomas and it has opened and clarified my mind more about Jesus and Christianity. It has provided me with confidence. I find this Gospel very fascinating that I currently searching for some Buddhist commentaries and interpretations of the literature.
<snip>
The Jesus freak within was awaken I never knew I had cause I am a Buddhist.
<snip>
Therefore, we can not see the diversity in Christianity in that retrospect of spirituality versus Dogma. I think in Buddhism there was no suppressing of other ideas about Buddha, just different sects.

Manji, if you are a Buddhist, you might really appreciate The Epistle of James, which is also among the earlier Christian writings. It addresses what you have been saying in this thread quite well.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Manji2012

I think in Buddhism there was no suppressing of other ideas about Buddha, just different sects.

Perhaps the pen is mightier than the sword. Certainly there are many examples of disparaging of other schools/sects beliefs in the suttas/sutras.

s.

[Bishadi]

The Gospel of Thomas gives me the impression that we are to took spirituality into our own hands and, when we do, we are free, empowered, and liberated.

Gnostic Teaching, the closest representation of jesus' teachings that exist along side 'pure truth.'

Look up Nicene Creed. That was the 'agreement' that made JC, God incarnate.

The Holly Bible is from this so all scriptures written within have matters of intepretation to be addressed.

I see it as; with the use of words man creates most anything.