origins of religion.

[_Z_]

origins of religion.

it seams that the last ice age was a critical time in the history of man, people were forced to merge and the indo europeans emerged. before the ice age there was religion based mainly [i think] on astrology and probably similar to early celtic egyptian and hindu religions.

quote; Astrology is ancient, more ancient than most of us realise. There is evidence that our ancestors knew of astrology as far back as 27000 years ago, before the destruction of 90% of the world’s flora and fauna at the end of the last ice age 12000 years ago. This is evident from the depiction of Taurus , the Pleiades and the lunar cycles, discovered in the caves of Lascaux in the Dordogne region of France.

steps to power:
somewhere along the lines religion become a way for the kings and priests to control the masses, perhaps though we read a lot into ancient religion by what it become.
shamans etc had visions and tended to wander around correlating data, and this is an important point; they would have argued over these points just as we do, i cannot imagine you could say any ole thing and it would be believed. when two people have similar experiences it tends to add juice to what they are saying, when you get a collective of shamans like e.g. the druids and they all correlate their ideas then we have the beginnings of religion.
after that we have the next step e.g. the veda’s, these were basically a collection of works by sage’s etc over quite a long period of time and put down into written form, this is the next step to the correlation of ideas by a priestly cast.
after this we have monotheism and the word of god, previous to this we had ‘interpretations’ of divinity. with a myriad of different often contradicting deities, even if one did say ‘this [X] is the word of god’, others would be able to counter it with quotes from their gods/deities.

ok, so how do you see the origins and progression of religion?

so what do you think the origins of religion are and how did the ice age and other negative events [e.g. great flood in the black sea] affect it?

[Tao_Equus]

Hiya Z... nice to see you again!!

I'm gona come back and reply tomorrow...too sleepy now to type. Subject interests me deeply tho.

TE

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Z, and welcome to CR!

Originally Posted by _Z_

origins of religion.

it seams that the last ice age was a critical time in the history of man, people were forced to merge and the indo europeans emerged. before the ice age there was religion based mainly [i think] on astrology and probably similar to early celtic egyptian and hindu religions.

A very interesting subject to me.

The period roughly 30 thousand to 12 thousand years ago is a very active one in the history of humanity. At the earliest part there were at least two species of Homo, Sapiens and Neandertalensis, living in the same region. (This is not to discount Homo Floresiensis!) Some say they comingled, others say they fought like cats and dogs. Officially, Neandertal died out about 25 thousand years ago, but there is at least one body that suggests Sapiens and Neandertal could and did interbreed, and it dates to around 20 thousand years ago iirc.

Artwork like cave paintings and "Venus" carvings are primarily limited to known Sapiens sites. Neandertal art tends to be more geometric, although there is at least one example of a bone flute (Neandertals played music). There are examples among both Cro Magnon and Neandertal that show medical care and nurturing of sick and wounded long after their "usefulness" was gone. There is also a leopardskin cape found wrapped around a Neandertal skeleton, apparently a shaman. So even though the cave paintings at Lascaux and many, many other places are Cro Magnon (modern human), there is strong evidence suggesting Neandertal were just as "religious." In the Fumane cave in northern Italy a depiction of a man in a horned mask was found, believed to be representative of a shaman. Other caves in France and Spain had cave bear skulls laid out on alters.

I feel it is also important to note that based on genetics, all humans living stem from three distinct lineages: The Ainu found now only in an isolated pocket on the northern island of Japan, who once dominated the whole of the Asian continent; the Lapplanders of far northern Europe now isolated I believe in Finland; and the oldest of all is the Bushmen of the Kalahari in Africa.

There is even disagreement among scholars about when and how the first humans arrived in America. It seems a number of possible scenarios besides the usual "Bering Sea landbridge" are plausible and supported by archeology, particularly the finding of Solutrean arrowheads in most of the states, as well as a cave accidentally discovered in south America (I want to say Chile) that far predates any known possibility of human presence that would of necessity imply seafarers across the Pacific before the last ice age.

Originally Posted by _Z_

Astrology is ancient, more ancient than most of us realise. There is evidence that our ancestors knew of astrology as far back as 27000 years ago, before the destruction of 90% of the world’s flora and fauna at the end of the last ice age 12000 years ago. This is evident from the depiction of Taurus , the Pleiades and the lunar cycles, discovered in the caves of Lascaux in the Dordogne region of France.

Considering ancient humanity had little else to do except forage and hunt for food, fend off the occasional saber toothed tiger, chip stones into arrow / spear heads and other tools, and keep from freezing to death; there wasn't a whole lot of entertainment except watching the stars and the moon. I have seen a few examples of calendars that used the moon's shadow or the rising and setting sun to mark the passage of the seasons, but little to indicate "astrology" in the sense you are suggesting. I don't think that came along until a bit later, somewhere between 10 and 6 thousand years ago, primarily in Mesopotamia.

Originally Posted by _Z_

steps to power:
somewhere along the lines religion become a way for the kings and priests to control the masses, perhaps though we read a lot into ancient religion by what it become.

This would be referring to religion as an institution, distinct from the personal religious quest. This is not a subtle distinction. I believe you are attempting to trace the institutions of religion, whereas the personal quest seems to have been with us all along, or at least as far back as we can determine.

Originally Posted by _Z_

shamans etc had visions and tended to wander around correlating data, and this is an important point; they would have argued over these points just as we do, i cannot imagine you could say any ole thing and it would be believed. when two people have similar experiences it tends to add juice to what they are saying, when you get a collective of shamans like e.g. the druids and they all correlate their ideas then we have the beginnings of religion.

I think I understand what you are saying. At the same time I can't help but think my shaman friend might disagree. This is really oversimplified and presumptuous, to be polite.

In my opinion, the important thing to take away from early tribal societies is that morality was observed. This may be a natural extension of evolution, in that morality is observed in many pack and herd mammals even today. Why were such early peoples moral if there were no rational reason to do so? In other words, I don't think personal religion is an accident, or a farcical imagination. There is room to argue over religious institutions.

Originally Posted by _Z_

after that we have the next step e.g. the veda’s, these were basically a collection of works by sage’s etc over quite a long period of time and put down into written form, this is the next step to the correlation of ideas by a priestly cast.

I have heard it said the original Vedas may be as much as 10 thousand years old, but I haven't seen anything to back it up. What we can know, is that sanskrit was likely the earliest language we can find, and it is the root language of the greatest number of languages on earth, with the notable exception of eastern "oriental" languages which seem to have an independent source. There is still an ongoing debate whether or not sanskrit developed in India, or whether it was brought by nomadic warriors from the Steppes.

It should be noted that Taoism has roots perhaps as ancient as the Vedas. I am of the opinion, supported by at least one Taoist whose name I have forgotten, that Taoism grew out of animism and shamanism. This from a book on Feng Shui. Alchemy (and by extension science) has its roots in Taoism.

Originally Posted by _Z_

after this we have monotheism and the word of god, previous to this we had ‘interpretations’ of divinity. with a myriad of different often contradicting deities, even if one did say ‘this [X] is the word of god’, others would be able to counter it with quotes from their gods/deities.

There is actually quite a bit in between you have overlooked. Mesopotamia had a series of polytheisms and hero-worship type religions. Zoroastrianism is usually held out as the first monotheist faith, if one discounts Akenaten in classical Egypt. And there is question over whether Akenaten predates Abraham in the land of Ur, whose descendants became slaves in Egypt.

Originally Posted by _Z_

ok, so how do you see the origins and progression of religion?

so what do you think the origins of religion are and how did the ice age and other negative events [e.g. great flood in the black sea] affect it?

There are similar flood myths across a great many ancient religions. While I am uncertain about the possibility of a world-wide flood (the physical dynamics do not add up), I do believe that the receding glaciers did create massive flooding in a variety of places, the Black Sea being only one such place.

While it may seem Monotheism took the world by storm, that is not quite factual. In the case of Judaism, it is the story of a singular people trying to make a way for themselves in an otherwise polytheistic world. Monotheism until around 300 AD was a minority religion, surrounded on all sides by polytheism and shamanism, Hinduism in India and Buddhism born out of Hinduism. In a strict sense, Hinduism is Monotheistic as well, as the "multiple" gods are considered many faces of one god. Buddhism could arguably be considered more of a philosophy than a religion, depending who it is one asks. Confucianism is certainly more of a philosophy than a religion.

Even today, Monotheism is not the dominant religion of the world. It makes up somewhat less than half if I remember the figures.

I realize I covered a lot more territory than "just" religion. One must consider that religion is only one facet of what makes us human. To follow our ancestors back before written records requires looking at far more than a single facet. We must keep our story in context, or we run the risk of rewriting the story to suit our own agenda, instead of letting the story speak for itself.

[juantoo3]

Solutrean-Clovis connection?

The Neandertal-Human hybrid question

Applied Anthropology


Just a few threads with multiple references to support the things I mention.

[_Z_]

juantoo3
hello, what a great reply!
i have wondered about the south americas too, just going on the imagery i am tempted to think that some of the inhabitants came from china rather than being of mongolian descent as in north america, i think the chinese had seafaring capabilities many thousands of years ago - god knows how many.
as for astrology, i saw on a documentary [not the best source i know] an ancient astrolabe of sorts, well it had no moving parts it was basically a rock with stars the moon and the sun on it with some kind of scale rule for measuring, apparently it was quite a complex ‘device’ and was from well before the ice age. i’ll try to dig up some note on it. the cave paintings at lascaux could be misinterpreted as astrology but the writer was pretty sure not.

This is really oversimplified and presumptuous

sure, nobody reads long posts and this thread is more asking than telling . recently a show on the history channel called britain bc, said exactly the same thing. it seams quite logical to me that e.g. druidry came from shamanism.
sure i have missed a hell of a lot -- here’s we you fit in!
thanx for the links!

[Snoopy]

Jolly interesting topic, has it not been mulled over before?!!

Here's my one penneth, based simply on the title.

OK picture the scene. Prehistoric man. Pre-science. Therefore he does not know why such powerful things as the sun rising and setting and the seasons changing happen. Or most anything really. One thing he does know is that death happens. He is mortal.

Living in a world you don't understand, that can be dangerous to your health and always (eventually) results in your death, aren't these enough ingredients to get you concocting notions which eventually could be given the label "religion" ?

s.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Z!

You are most welcome.

Originally Posted by _Z_

i have wondered about the south americas too, just going on the imagery i am tempted to think that some of the inhabitants came from china rather than being of mongolian descent as in north america, i think the chinese had seafaring capabilities many thousands of years ago - god knows how many.

There is a find in Australia, I seem to recall it being called Lake Mungo man 2, that is dated something like 80 thousand years ago. It is Cro Magnon in features. The question puzzling archeologists is how in the world it got to where it is. To be so old, and show evidence of established settlement, means that humans must have been seafaring way, way before our textbooks tell us humans were capable. The Polynesians have seafaring down to an art, passed today from generation to generation. The PVS has conducted semi-annual trips from Hawaii to Tahiti and beyond without the aid of any modern navigational instruments since around 1979, kind of as a polite thumb in the eye of modernity. I remember reading somewhere of an island kingdom built in one of the South Pacific islands that would match the complexity of construction of Renaissance fortress construction such as the fort at St. Augustine here in Florida. I do not know the age of this Polynesian fortress, but it is evidently very old.

Famed anthropologist and explorer Thor Heyrdahl made a series of daring voyages in the 1950's building and sailing craft based on designs from antiquity. His more famous expeditions Ra I and Ra II were built to designs from ancient Egypt, vessels made of reeds. The first fell apart shortly before reaching the destination, insight that made Ra II successful. Egypt to somewhere in Central America in a boat built of reeds. The more fascinating journey in my estimation was the Kon Tiki, built according to specs of craft used by Peruvian Indians who settled beside a mile high lake. In this vessel Heyrdahl showed it was possible to island hop throughout the South Pacific, in a vessel built to designs anthropologists deemed thousands of years old. I suspect the Chilean cave may have been occupied by a wayward group of Polynesians.

I have heard rumor, with nothing to support, that far in antiquity two clans warred (as seems to be the way with humans). One clan was driven into the sea and took to seafaring, settling the islands of the Pacific and Indian Oceans. We call these people today Polynesians. This is not to dismiss the Chinese, but as with more modern societies, the Chinese efforts in circumnavigation and such took place far more recently and in far better developed vessels built of timber.

There seems to me a strong Mongol / Chinese characteristic among many North American natives, particularly west of the Mississippi. It gets a little fuzzy in the center, but the Eastern American Natives strike me as generally having more European features. One of the references points to genetic evidence to show that at least 4 major migrations came into North America, one of which was European. Then there are little anomalies like the Ten Commandments written on a stone in Los Lunas New Mexico. How did it get there...in antiquity? A stone found in a serpent mound in Ohio likewise inscribed with the Ten Commandments, and dated well into the BC era. The mound builders of the Ohio valley are an enigma unto themselves.

Originally Posted by _Z_

as for astrology, i saw on a documentary [not the best source i know] an ancient astrolabe of sorts, well it had no moving parts it was basically a rock with stars the moon and the sun on it with some kind of scale rule for measuring, apparently it was quite a complex ‘device’ and was from well before the ice age. i’ll try to dig up some note on it. the cave paintings at lascaux could be misinterpreted as astrology but the writer was pretty sure not.

Seems to me mathematics and astrology pretty well go hand in hand. The Sumerians in Mesopotamia developed a "sexigesimal" numeral system that counted is series of six instead of ten. In the states we have a holdover with measurements like inches and feet and yards, half-dozens and dozens and gross. In many ways this counting by sixes is more accurate (divides more evenly) than counting by tens. The circle is divided into 360 degrees. This was intended to correspond to the cycle of the year, which is 360 plus a fraction (we later understood 365, still later 365 1/4, and even that is not wholly accurate). In the process of dividing the sky and the year into 360 roughly equal units, a zodiacal procession was noted, and incorporated into what was understood of a solar calendar.

No doubt this is overly simplistic, but this is pretty well how I have come to understand the development of Astrology in the more formal sense we understand today. It is based on sixes and geometry.

Originally Posted by _Z_

sure, nobody reads long posts and this thread is more asking than telling . recently a show on the history channel called britain bc, said exactly the same thing. it seams quite logical to me that e.g. druidry came from shamanism.
sure i have missed a hell of a lot -- here’s we you fit in!
thanx for the links!

Certainly TV shows can spark an interest, Lord knows I get a lot that way myself. One simply has to exercise caution, and take such programs with a grain of salt until proven otherwise. Druidry may well have come from a form of shamanism. In the most literal established sense of the word though, a shaman can only come from the far eastern Siberia / Kamchatka region. It is from there that the word gains its original meaning and intent. I, like too many others, have chosen to borrow this term for a generic name to place on so many animist / naturalist religions that otherwise have no name or context in a modern sense (most having been lost in antiquity). Occasionally the term might be extended to a modern tribal religion (as my friend does), because it is more acceptable in the larger Pagan (and scientific) community than saying "oh, I'm Apache." It conveys a bit better to outsiders, I suppose is what I am trying to say. Whereas no doubt to her, the subtleties and distinctions of Apache are far different than say Navajo, or true Siberian shamanism.

So I guess what I am trying to say is that the Celtic basis of Druidry seems shamanist in the modern anthropological sense of the word. I am not as familiar with the Celts, although others who know me here know I have a strong hunch there is association with at least one or a few of the ten lost tribes of Israel. There is a long and storied history between the Holy Land in Solomon's time and the South of Britain. There is a long and storied history of the Lia Fail, the Stone of Scone, and how it came to Ireland, from there to Scotland and then to Britain. Every British Monarch since William the Conquerer (except Bloody Mary) has been crowned sitting on that stone. It has only recently been returned to Scotland. Granted, British history is composed of far more than Gaels and Celts, but such an ancient tradition to have survived for over a thousand years, and the telling of the story of the Stone even more ancient still, does give me pause to consider.

Enjoy!

[_Z_]

hello snoopy
ha, i expect similar if not exactly the same topics have been done here.
yes sure is good enough reason, beyond that though perhaps there is something else. we can think of all these reasons yet we are missing something more fundamental perhaps i.e. visions, spiritual experience! back then were there people whom were the equivalent of psychics, mediums and mystics. soothsayers seam to be common in amazonian tribes, i wonder if they have changed much in the last 30,000 years?
juantoo3
fascinating stuff! i remember about the ra II, and the Polynesians must have found their way to their islands somehow eh. it probably depended purely upon the weather as much as anything, such craft would have found it difficult in a storm, again this is where your mystics come in handy if they can foretell a good or treacherous journey. the same goes for the hunt, i wonder if the runes were as recent in conception as we think. the druids had ogham fews which were cast similarly and i expect shamans have always used similar tools such as bones etc.
have a look at some Olmec images and compare to ancient chinese and see if you think the same as i did when comparing!?
i didn’t know about the ten commandments thing - got any links? i read somewhere that europeans from britain and france shared some similar characteristics with toltecs [i think] both racially and culturally/religious.
i agree about the old systems i still use them over metric at work - they just ‘fit’ better, i see what you mean about 6 being more rounded too, ten is easy for simple calculating but once used to using 6 it is easier and more fluid.
i see what you were saying about shamans now - yes it is used generically now. strictly speaking we can only use the term druid for the ‘celtic’ culture from 1rst century bc onwards, we don’t have a name for them before that and there was a change from stone circles to oak groves. gut i would definitely say that there was a continuous thing going on there with traditions that last ‘till today like maypole dancing which was traditionally a marriage ceremony [pre druidic]. apparently circle dancing was always big in britain, in france stones are usually in lines so perhaps they did line dancing there lol.
the celts were not a race - more of a culture, britons came mainly from the iberian peninsula [paplo group 1, i think is the term used] and still comprise 51% of britain. i don’t know about the tribes of israel thing - how it connects. to be honest - if i may, i would think israel overstates its importance as the centre of the universe, during the ice age many peoples blended into the indo-european group from whence came indians [hundustani types] arabs moors iberians germans and dacians [example of the general eastern european types].
interestingly ‘religion’ seamed to spring in different directions from there, in the east with for example israel and hindus, we have the duel distinctions of good and evil developing, and whilst these existed in all forms of spirituality of that time in britain and the druidic religion which sprang from there, we seam to have a much more greyed area hmm i’ll try and put this carefully; in the upanishaps there is a clear distinction between good and bad magic with many spells etc made to rid one of evil wizards, whereas the druids seamed to take such magical practices into the fold, this can be seam in the spells they cast to sink the roman navy [apparently] and in the famous battle at anglesea where romans were ‘frozen in their tracks’. this is a simplistic view but i feel hints at relevant strains.

There is a long and storied history between the Holy Land in Solomon’s time and the South of Britain

is there? i don’t know much beyond the vague idea of joseph coming to glastonbury - if that is even true. do you think the two nations knew of each others existence before the romans came? i know caesar said that the druids were fond of maps and reckoned the size of the world, so who knows.
thanks for great reply!

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by _Z_

i wonder if the runes were as recent in conception as we think. the druids had ogham fews which were cast similarly and i expect shamans have always used similar tools such as bones etc.

I am not as familiar with runes, although a favorite linguist scholar travels the US in search of Ogham inscriptions, and has found several from Tennessee to New Mexico and Wyoming, dated to at least as early as 800 AD.

Originally Posted by _Z_

have a look at some Olmec images and compare to ancient chinese and see if you think the same as i did when comparing!?

Actually, I looked at some of this a few years back...the large carved stone heads look more Sub-Saharan African to me.

Originally Posted by _Z_

i didn’t know about the ten commandments thing - got any links?

Los Lunas Decalogue stone:

Los Lunas NM Decalogue Inscription

Los Lunas Decalogue Stone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Los Lunas Decalogue - Background

The Newark, Ohio, Decalogue Stone and Keystone:

The Newark "Holy Stones"

Decalogue Stone - Newark Holy Stones - Crystalinks

Newark Holy Stones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Will this be sufficient?

Originally Posted by _Z_

i read somewhere that europeans from britain and france shared some similar characteristics with toltecs [i think] both racially and culturally/religious.

Considering the bit about Solutrean knapping techniques in combination with European genetics in one out of four Native Americans, it would strike me as no surprise. It may surprise you how much genetically Caucasians share with Africans...seems that little skin pigment thing is just a mutant gene. Not so for Orientals...

Originally Posted by _Z_

strictly speaking we can only use the term druid for the ‘celtic’ culture from 1rst century bc onwards, we don’t have a name for them before that and there was a change from stone circles to oak groves. gut i would definitely say that there was a continuous thing going on there with traditions that last ‘till today like maypole dancing which was traditionally a marriage ceremony [pre druidic]. apparently circle dancing was always big in britain, in france stones are usually in lines so perhaps they did line dancing there lol.

This makes sense. I still find the construction of Stonehenge and the other stone monuments fascinating...like how could they do that way back then? Same goes for the Egyptian pyramids, and the South American pyramids.

Originally Posted by _Z_

the celts were not a race - more of a culture,

No problem with me there.

Originally Posted by _Z_

britons came mainly from the iberian peninsula [paplo group 1, i think is the term used] and still comprise 51% of britain.

So, that would be another direct association with the Lia Fail and the house of Tara. You see, two daughters of the last King of Judah were carried off under the escort of the prophet Jeremiah, one was married to a prince in Iberia, and one to a prince in Ireland. The Stone of Scone was brought at that time to Ireland, give or take about 500 BC.

Originally Posted by _Z_

i don’t know about the tribes of israel thing - how it connects. to be honest - if i may, i would think israel overstates its importance as the centre of the universe,

It's still very fuzzy to me too. When they were carried away captive by the Assyrians they were scattered to the wind (as was Assyria's way of dealing with subjugated peoples). The tribe of Dan has already been exiled, and there are numerous place names throughout Europe that tie to Dan. I would associate Dan with ancient Greece first (specifically the Spartans) and the "barbaric" Teutonic Germans afterward. Others are a bit more difficult to follow without a roadmap, but at least some made their way into France and the British Isles. I believe these are known to history as Goths, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Angles, and Jutes. (Any of these may not be, I am guessing) I have heard it said that Saxon is a shortened form of "Isaac's sons," as direct a reference as one can get. I have also heard the name "British" means people of the covenant. Brit-ish. I have also read of some association with the two crossed flags that when combined create the modern British flag. The Scottish declaration of Independence is an interesting read, although the high points have long left this failing memory.

Originally Posted by _Z_

during the ice age many peoples blended into the indo-european group from whence came indians [hundustani types] arabs moors iberians germans and dacians [example of the general eastern european types].

Yes, but this was long long before the house of Israel was carried away captive.

Originally Posted by _Z_

interestingly ‘religion’ seamed to spring in different directions from there, in the east with for example israel and hindus, we have the duel distinctions of good and evil developing, and whilst these existed in all forms of spirituality of that time in britain and the druidic religion which sprang from there, we seam to have a much more greyed area hmm i’ll try and put this carefully; in the upanishaps there is a clear distinction between good and bad magic with many spells etc made to rid one of evil wizards, whereas the druids seamed to take such magical practices into the fold, this can be seam in the spells they cast to sink the roman navy [apparently] and in the famous battle at anglesea where romans were ‘frozen in their tracks’. this is a simplistic view but i feel hints at relevant strains.

Spell casting is a bit outside the realm of my experience. I am somewhat conversant with sympathetic magic, mostly due to Sir Frazer's book "the Golden Bough." I have heard of some of the amazing feats the Celts and Picts were able to perform against the Romans, pretty well kept them at bay and eventually sent them packing. Well, that and some pressing political issues at home. The "Low-" German mercenaries brought in to protect the Roman civilians turned on their masters, and so the official history of modern Britain begins, or so I have read. The English language is initially derived from Low German.

Originally Posted by _Z_

is there? i don’t know much beyond the vague idea of joseph coming to glastonbury - if that is even true. do you think the two nations knew of each others existence before the romans came? i know caesar said that the druids were fond of maps and reckoned the size of the world, so who knows.

Why do you suppose Joseph of Arimathea had any interest in Glastonbury? Joseph was a trader of tin, a tin merchant. There is an ancient tin mine in Glastonbury well known to the Romans, and to the Phoenicians long before them. Joseph, said to be the maternal uncle of Jesus, used to travel back and forth collecting tin and selling the metal to fabricators. According to this tradition, Jesus' lost years were spent traveling with his uncle back and forth to the South of England.

Interesting is the direct association between Glastonbury and Avalon, the fabled castle of Arthur, which is in the immediate area. It is said that Jesus had the first Christian church anywhere built at Glastonbury, and at the height of the Schisms that threatened to dissolve the Catholic church there was no disagreement against the claim of being first built. There was a monastery built over the original wattle church, the ruins of which still stand (having been destroyed in Henry VIII's purges). The graves of Arthur and Guinevere are long and well known to have been on the grounds of that same monastery. Considering the quest for the Grail of Christ by the Knights of the Round Table, I think it all ties together pretty well. There is even a very old tree that still grows at Glastonbury, said to have been brought by Joseph from the Holy Land.

Hope I didn't lose you, you did ask for origins of religions...

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, all!

Some Olmec head carvings for consideration:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...6safe%3Dactive


http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...6safe%3Dactive



http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...6safe%3Dactive



Trying not to seem “racist” in any way, but considering certain prominent features that are emphasized, particularly the nose, I am inclined to go along with the researchers that suggest these are African traits rather than Oriental ones. Either way, it is quite an accomplishment to traverse an ocean, establish a settlement, and thrive to the point of developing a culture capable of creating such monumental works of art.

Well, it seems my links to the images are not placing thumbnails here, but they are linking to the articles with the pictures. OOOPS.

[juantoo3]

Hawaii History: Pre-Contact

This link tells a bit about the Polynesian Voyaging Society. The PVS also has a site of its own that should be easy enough to find.

[_Z_]

hi juantoo3
interesting stuff,i’ll try to give a better response later but i am suffering with a bad back at the moment - sitting in this chair hurts.
i think you are right about the olmecs - perhaps it was another culture i was thinking of - i’ll have a look around.
why is it that aftricans could go to america and build great cities etc, yet not do so in africa? or am i missing something. perhaps the olmecs were an original aboriginal peoples?
jus thoughts.
thanx very much for the great replies!

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Z!

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Let's just say I can relate.

Originally Posted by _Z_

i think you are right about the olmecs - perhaps it was another culture i was thinking of - i’ll have a look around.
why is it that aftricans could go to america and build great cities etc, yet not do so in africa? or am i missing something. perhaps the olmecs were an original aboriginal peoples?

I don't know for certain the Olmecs were indigenous to Central America...there is a lot of oral history lost of Central and South American (North America too, for that matter). As heavy handed as the "British" colonials ever were, the "Spanish" colonials eclipsed them in cruelty and cultural extermination. The Spanish had no interest whatsoever in the preceeding history of the region; their focus was on gold, and pretty much only gold, except maybe silver. A lot of what passed as history of the region for several hundred years was rewritten deliberately by the Spanish missionaries both to favor and highlight the Spanish political ascension and the dominance of the Christian faith.

What we do have with texts such as the Popol Vuh, is largely an Aztec POV (as I recall) over the cultures they in turn had dominated. Central American history before Columbus was brutal, to say the least. The Olmecs were but a minor player in all of that. Subjugated kingdoms were routinely submitted to slavery and offered as sacrifice, it was the way things were done in that region. So, in some ironic sense, the Spanish kinda meted out some karma, and the vanquished surrendered to it almost without question. (this is exceptionally simplistic, there were some very resistant holdouts that fought against Spanish rule for centuries after. The remnants of that resistance still remain in places like the Guatamalan highlands where indigenous peoples still resist the now long established civilian governmental authority)

That these cultures were capable of major constructions is a wonder to itself. What with pyramids that rival Egypt in size and splender. Considering the ancient ruins at Ankor Wat in Cambodia and ancient ruins known in India, it would not surprise me in the least if there were comparable constructs waiting to be discovered in deep in Africa.

[Tao_Equus]

Z,
a possible answer to that question is that there have indeed been cities in Africa. In europe and the middle east forests have been rapidly diminished and so stone became the material of choice through neccesity. Abandoned African cities will soon have rotted away without trace as they were built from an inexhaustable supply of materials much easier to obtain, transport and work than stone is.
One notable stone artifact, which I strangely seem to not find yet googling, is the remains of a huge stone wall in the Congo jungle. Built, it was suggested, to keep out maurauding elephants. It was of some quite considerable length suggesting the area it was meant to protect was very large indeed. Certainly an area large enough to contain a sizeable city.

My personal take on the Olmec carvings tend to side with your original thots Z, that they have a striking resemblence to ancient Chinese. The broader 'african' noses are to my eye not particularly striking, where as the genral impression is very oriental. Given that the ancient chinese were great scholars, inventors and craftsmen I would not at all be suprised that they were capable of a voyage across the pacific.

I am doing a little searching into other related news items I have heard down the years regarding astrology. I tend to think mans first 'homage to the Gods' was very likely deeply rooted in what we would term astrology. When I have found what I'm looking for I will post more.

Nice posts from Juantoo, however all the 10 commandment 'finds' in the americas are considered fakes it seems.

te

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Tao!

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Nice posts from Juantoo, however all the 10 commandment 'finds' in the americas are considered fakes it seems.

The only "detractors" I have been able to find were called to task in scholarly discussion years ago. If you are aware of something I am not, I would be happy to take a look. Otherwise, the Los Lunas and Newark stones have been independently, if sometimes reluctantly, confirmed. At least by all accounts I have seen.

Are you at all familiar with the finds of pre-Columbian hearths used for smelting metals in the Americas?

BTW, I would absolutely love a reference to your Congoan wall, that would be so cool!