Original sin

[Faithfulservant]

Sin is flat out disobedience to God. God did not create us to disobey but He gave the capability to make our own choices. Adam and Eve made the choice to disobey God bringing on the curse of death. Sin brings death. He did not want mindless robots He made us to come to Him willingly, submitting ourselves to Him because we love Him that much. HE loves US that much.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Sin is flat out disobedience to God. God did not create us to disobey but He gave the capability to make our own choices. Adam and Eve made the choice to disobey God bringing on the curse of death. Sin brings death. He did not want mindless robots He made us to come to Him willingly, submitting ourselves to Him because we love Him that much. HE loves US that much.

right

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by didymus

I forgot to add something. if God made man in his image and everything was good, what happened in Genesis 3:1 The serpent was craftier than any of the wild animals that God made.

Genesis 6:6 God grieved that He had made man on earth and his heart was filled with pain.

Things apparently didn't turn out too good there did they?

serpant is the devil...the devil also chose to disobey & try rising above God & was tossed out of heaven.

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. "

this is after man disobeyed that God repented...not when he made man.
you are right...things did not turn out so good, that is why Jesus came to lift the curse of death, through his death on the cross

so as we see, it is the serpant, the devil that decieves the world & causes man to disobey & sin,

not God.

[didymus]

You're right, God would never deceive the world or lie. But God did make the serpent.

[didymus]

Will someone respond to my question about "God created man in his own image", for Pete's sake.

[KnightoftheRose]

Will someone respond to my question about "God created man in his own image", for Pete's sake.

Without the capacity to do evil, being "good" is meaningless. If you couldn't do wrong, only right, you are merely acting by your nature, and so what you are doing isn't really "right", as doing what is right requires right intention, and not right behavior. Right?

The same seems true of God. If God were only acting by his nature, why worship Him? If He could never act outside of "goodness", even if He willed it so, he'd be an automaton ("Please insert prayer HERE"), AND he wouldn't be omnipotent (as there would then be something impossible for Him to do). So, it seems like God has freewill; He can do evil. BUT, the difference between Him and us is that He has no problem avoiding sin (he is all-powerful and all-knowing, after all), whereas we can barely predict the next twenty minutes.

So we are created in His image, fully equipped with capacity to do both good and evil, but unlike Him, we are not all-powerful and all-knowing, so we cannot always make the "good" decision.

I hope that all made sense...I'm really tired...

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, all!

Excellent points, all!

Didymus, there is a quote in Isaiah that has long made me wonder as you do-

"I (am) *J---H, and none any more except Me there is no God. I will clothe you, though not you know me, that they may know from the rising of the sun and to the sunset, that none (is) besides Me. I (am) *J---H, and none any more! Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil, I *J---H do all these things." -Isaiah 45:5-7, Interlinear, *sacred name

"I (am) the LORD, and (there is) none else, (there is) no God beside Me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me. That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that (there is) none beside Me. I (am) the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace and create evil, I the LORD do all these (things)." Isaiah 45:5-7, Companion

Lucifer was created by God just as Adam and Eve were. For reasons known only to Him, God has created and allowed evil to exist.

My guess is that God loves us, and wants us to love Him in return. As was pointed out by another here, if we were made to love Him without choice (as automatons), it would not be genuine love. We must choose to love God, and a portion of that love from our end of the deal, is to show Him by our choice to follow, our choice to observe, our choice to be obedient.

I do not know the answer, this is only my guess based on my faith and understanding.

As for being made in God's image, well, I don't know. Perhaps our form (two arms, two legs, a head and body...), perhaps our will, perhaps our thought, perhaps our ability to love, or any/all or even none of these things. I figure we will know in due time, if it is meant to be.

[Bandit]

OOOPS! I have no idea how I deleted your post Bandit. Sorry if it causes any problem. Juantoo3

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by didymus

You're right, God would never deceive the world or lie. But God did make the serpent.

i am glad we agree on something

Will someone respond to my question about "God created man in his own image", for Pete's sake.

i did respond on this in 2 other threads.

i dont know, God is not flesh so we cant be completely totally in his image. God cannot fail but man can.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bandit!

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace and create evil,

i have always looked at this from the beginning before man when the earth was void. i think these thoughts did originate from God but i do not believe God is evil or literally creates evil, but rather he put the thought there for Lucifer & the angels to decide.
Lucifer was not made evil but God allowed him to choose the pride of exalting himself above God.

i think this was the original sin.

it gets a little tricky.

Well, I don't think Isaiah was referring to the creation of the world in those verses (shame on me, I didn't look further to see what he was saying, to who and why). Then there is the little matter of Job. God could have easily kept evil at bay from this righteous man, but chose instead to test his faith. Likewise Abraham was tested to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. I'm sure I could think of others if I took the time. But what better way to prove someone's love? Surely in your own life, those you love have tested/tried your love for them on many occasions. Sometimes it is intentional (as I believe it always is with God), sometimes it is just humans being human. Surely there have been moments when you have caused grief for those who love you, whether you meant to or not.

When God created humanity, he did so much more than throw together a bag of flesh and bones. I find this so impressive. What we are able to experience, to learn, to perceive, to understand, is phenomenal compared to all other creatures. Evil must have its place, or God would not allow it. Just as we have been given choice, love God or not.

Tricky? Yes, I suppose that is one way to put it. Some questions are better left unanswered until the proper time, which may be never. I can live with that.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Bandit!

Well, I don't think Isaiah was referring to the creation of the world in those verses (shame on me, I didn't look further to see what he was saying, to who and why). Then there is the little matter of Job. God could have easily kept evil at bay from this righteous man, but chose instead to test his faith. Likewise Abraham was tested to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. I'm sure I could think of others if I took the time. But what better way to prove someone's love? Surely in your own life, those you love have tested/tried your love for them on many occasions. Sometimes it is intentional (as I believe it always is with God), sometimes it is just humans being human. Surely there have been moments when you have caused grief for those who love you, whether you meant to or not.

When God created humanity, he did so much more than throw together a bag of flesh and bones. I find this so impressive. What we are able to experience, to learn, to perceive, to understand, is phenomenal compared to all other creatures. Evil must have its place, or God would not allow it. Just as we have been given choice, love God or not.

Tricky? Yes, I suppose that is one way to put it. Some questions are better left unanswered until the proper time, which may be never. I can live with that.

Juantoo3, (or anyone)
tell me if you see any connection here in Genises with that verse in
Is.
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace and create evil,

Gen.1:2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1:3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. i dont think this light & darkness DIVIDED, was literal sun & moon light. i think this was in reference to good & evil & the speration of the angels.
we dont see literal light(s) until verse 16.

i know evil has its place. without it there would be no temptation because God does not tempt us with evil. Job is one of my favorites of the OT. I feel he suffered more than the rest, because he had everything & knew what it was to lose it all & suffer in the flesh for a very long time & he cried & cried to God, but He would not deny Him as God.

anyway i dont know what happened to the post either. no big deal I can't remember what i said anyway.

[lunamoth]

About the Isaiah quote posted by Jt3:

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD , do all these things. (NIV)

The context is the LORD telling Israel that Cyrus King of Persia will conquer Babylon and allow the Israelites to return to Jerusalem.

And another example from Isaiah:

Isaiah 54:16

"See, it is I who created the blacksmith
who fans the coals into flame
and forges a weapon fit for its work.
And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc;

17 no weapon forged against you will prevail,
and you will refute every tongue that accuses you.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD ,
and this is their vindication from me,"
declares the LORD .

I agree with the above posters who said that you can't really be good unless you also have the chance to choose evil. Taking it a step further God claims our evil (by allowing it) and and folded it into His plan from the beginning. The evil of the cross, what could be worse? But this released the world from the bondage to sin. This does not mean that we can choose evil without personal consequence, or that life is all nice and happy for those who choose good. Suffering is part of the world God created and I can only believe that it is like pruning a rose bush to make it stronger and healthier. Sometimes it seems that God woos us, othertimes that He drives us into His arms.

Guess this doesn't have much to do with the question of original sin. I don't believe that we inherit sin--we create quite enough on our own. We did inherit the tendency toward sin. I was created good with the potential to choose good or evil. Being created in the image of God, to me, does not mean our physical attributes but our virtues. Perhaps even our flaws are misapplied virtuous characters. Every instrument created for good can also be put to bad use.

more ramblings frojm your friendly neighborhood,
lunamoth

[Abogado del Diablo]

The story of the "Fall" of Adam and Eve is a metaphor depicting the schism created in the human phsyche by judging the world as good and evil that in turn creates all of the false identities and separations that in turn are the source of human suffering.

Good v. Evil
God v. human
Human v. nature
Man v. Woman

It's all in there. Its real value is unlocked by reading as it was intended - metaphorically.

At least that's my perception.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

The story of the "Fall" of Adam and Eve is a metaphor depicting the schism created in the human phsyche by judging the world as good and evil that in turn creates all of the false identities and separations that in turn are the source of human suffering.

Good v. Evil
God v. human
Human v. nature
Man v. Woman

It's all in there. Its real value is unlocked by reading as it was intended - metaphorically.

At least that's my perception.

Hello, Abogado, welcome back. I've missed your voice here.

lunamoth

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hello, Abogado, welcome back. I've missed your voice here.

lunamoth

Thanks. It's nice to be back. I'll never catch up on all the discussions. Looks like a lot of new faces around here, too.