Order and Disorder, and their Origins in Culture

[flowperson]

Vajradhara and I were having a conversation regarding beliefs with respect to spirits among us. It was suggested that the questions asked be moved to a more appropriate venue. I chose this one. The two posts that led to the question follow:

"Namaste flow,

hmm.. well, demons are beings which inhabit the hellish realms and are not Hungry Ghosts, per se.

moreover, Buddhists are not (typically) engaged in the practice of banishing or "casting out" since hungry ghosts are not indwelling within other beings.

also recall that for the majority of Buddhists, the actual distinctions between these classes of beings is irrelevant. they are sentient beings and, as such, will take rebirth based on their karma.

realistically, the Christian paradigm lists three classes of supranormal beings, angels, demons and God. Buddhism really doesn't have a direct correlation with these concepts though we can, perhaps, be close enough for an easy discussion of such, in my view.

metta,

~v"

"Namaste Vajradhara !

Leave it to us Christians to categorize the dimensions of spiritual beings and then say that there may be only three and no more ! That sort of attitude always gives everyone more reason for conflict, IMHO.

I agree that the Bhuddist approach seems more civilized and realistic, since we are all just places on a spectrum of spiritual realities. It makes more sense to me that our remaining spiritual selves would also tend towards that sort of interpretation.

Another question for anyone. Do you believe that this compulsive desire of some believers to identify, label, or categorize everything in an attempt to seemingly impose order upon a naturally disordered world is something that we all have inside of us; or, do you believe that it is a learned behavior that has come over the millenia with the civilizing tendencies of our communities ? "

flow....
 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Flowperson!

Do you believe that this compulsive desire of some believers to identify, label, or categorize everything in an attempt to seemingly impose order upon a naturally disordered world is something that we all have inside of us; or, do you believe that it is a learned behavior that has come over the millenia with the civilizing tendencies of our communities ?

Interesting question.

I'm not certain I would use terminology like "compulsive desire." Perhaps it is just me, but the term seems to carry a certain connotation of being mentally unhealthy, that it is somehow wrong to want to make sense of the universe around us.

I would also question a "naturally disordered world." Seems to me, if the world were truly disordered, there would be no rhyme or reason to nature. The entire philosophy of science would have no basis to stand upon. That is, up is up and down is down, were it not so, science could not use up and down as reference. Now, I realize this example has limitations, and that up and down are relative positions, but gravity exists. In an unordered, chaotic world, gravity would not have any relevence, or the relevence would be random. Up would not always be up, and down would not always be down. Point being, I think it is a misconception that there exists for us a "naturally disordered world." I think nature is very ordered. Having said this, I think we as humans often misunderstand this order, so to some nature may appear disordered.

I didn't really follow the other thread, so picking up here I may be a little off base. I suspect a lot of what humans do is cultural and learned behavior. I think, at least in the West, that we are taught to be inclined to categorize. There is far more mental comfort in an ordered world than a chaotic one. So yes, we probably do try to order things in our private little worlds to achieve some sense of stability and rationality.

On a subject as speculative as ghosts and phantoms, we are at once limited, and yet (in some circles) have a library of folklore to gather from. While in one sense, it is true, the West does narrow the spirit realm to a few categories, yet in some traditions in the West, including some sects of Christianity, those categories are subdivided further. Demons, for instance, are but the commonplace "evil" spirits, there are others. The Nephilim come readily to mind. There are those who class disembodied spirits "who haven't gone into the light," ghosts. And Poltergeists. There are more.

Angels are often classed into various ranks. There are the 4 Archangels. There are lesser angels. There are messengers. There are "guardian" angels.

I do not pretend to understand the Eastern method of ranking spirits, I have learned but a little here through Vajradhara. The primary difference I see in typical Christian teaching compared with what I have learned here, is that in Christian thought "once an evil spirit, always an evil spirit," whereas it seems this is not the thought behind Buddhist teaching. That even evil spirits have an opportunity, eventually, for redemption (in Christian parlance).

This is not a subject I dwell on, but I have been of the acquaintance of a few who do. I suspect a lot we put faith in on this subject is relational and experiential. I do not know how common it is for people to experience spirits, good or bad. In my experience, I feel women are typically more in tune to this. There are people who claim to communicate with spirits directly. I realize there is a lot of latitude for charletans, but there is sufficient to raise legitimate questions.

Conversing with spirits is not a modern invention. In ancient Greece, there was a huge complex built with the sole purpose of preparing people to converse with the spirit world. The ruins still exist. It is called the Psychomantium, in the most Southeastern corner of Greece, just outside the Gates of Hades (no joke). Seems to me a rather huge social investment to be chasing simple figments of imagination.

There are the traditions of spirit-walking, and vision quest. There is the tradition of astral projection. There are other cultural expressions relating to and with the spirit world. It is a far and wide occurance, dating probably as far back as humans have been human. That spirits exist, I am convinced, by experience and by extensive circumstantial evidence. I do exercise caution though, in that I do not actively seek spirits myself. There have been moments in my life, rare as they are, when spirits have made themselves known to me. But I do not actively seek them, as I know that I do not know. I have been taught by my tradition not to seek spirits.

[juantoo3]

Found a couple of interesting pics dealing with the Gates of Hades and the Psychomantium:

http://www.apollonius.net/hades.html

BTW, I misspoke earlier, it is not the SE of Greece, it is South Central, farthest point.

[flowperson]

Juan, thank you for your thoughtful reply.

From a classical view of the world, you are absolutely right. The world has been as it appears and we have historically exploited its attributes for fun and profit, lo these many milllenia.

But there are new perspectives around us in the nature of the unseen. We know that everything we devise to order the world of nature around us for our benefit and edification, such as building dwellings, growing crops, building roads, are always subject to the degredations imposed upon them by natural systems. Houses are damaged in windstorms, planted fields are reduced in their productivity thru the actions of weeds and insects, and water seeps into cracks in pavement and eventually splits it when the water freezes.

But under the new perspectives in science that began in the last century we are now able to engineer around these degredations to a certain extent these days. We can build houses to better specs to resist and defeat wind damage, crop seeds can be planted that have insecticides and herbicidal properties engineered into them, and we can include rubberized components in paving materials that resist the intrusion of water into the pavements. I guess what I'm saying is that we are creating a world that is more comfortable and convenient, to an extent , for us to exist and live in, and we've been doing so for about 150 years or so. There is always a cost involved in doing such things, and the increased intensity of storm systems might be one of them because of our addiction to fossil fuels, and our reluctance to embrace sustainable alternatives

The fact that many of us are more allergic to our surroundings than our grandparents were may point to some degree in evolutional adaptation in our species away from living and working in natural surroundings to living and working in articifial surroundings 24 hours a day.

What I'm getting at here is that we are beginning to engineer the very fabric of the natural world now down to the nano and quantum levels, and nature is such that it will always have its way in the end. In Germany a short while ago a new cleanser was introduced that contained nano-particles to whiten and brighten the surfaces cleaned. Dozens of people were in respiratory care before officials knew what was going on and the cleanser was pulled off the shelves.

I view this all as G-d having created an analog reality for us to exist in, and here we are converting everything to digital simulations to enhance our understandings of the realities around us, and to an extent to cheat and delay the incursions of nature upon our created realities. My concern is the reckoning that nature may inceasingly impose upon us whether we like it or not.

So again I say that, IMHO, western thought and philosophy strive to impose order upon the natural world around us to support our growth into the future, but the extent to which that ordering is being imposed upon nature is starting to turn around and bite us back in some real ways.

Is this compulsion in us to reorder the natural world around us inborn or have we learned it culturally? I'm still looking for a definitive explanation/answer. As far back as I've peered into the dim past, humans have obtained their sustenance from the natural systems of earth, but now we force it to give us what we want when we want it. In ancient times we gave thanks for what we gained and religions were based upon that practice. Today we pay our money, pick up our industrialized fast food, and not give a thought as to how that whopper ended up going down our throats.

By the way, even the traditional views concerning gravity are being reworked as we exchange thoughts. A recent book by Lisa Randall, Warped Passages, gives us a peek at what gravity probably is really all about, way beyond Newtonian thinking, and more along the lines of quantum uncertanties

Oh, and the oracle at Delphi sat over a crack in the earth on a three legged stool, inhaled the vapors coming from the crack, and fortold the future based upon the visions she related. Recent findings are that the vapor contains a chemical compound that acts as a mild hallucinogen upon the brain. You're right, mystics often did drugs to obtain their visions, in lots of differing ways.

flow....

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Flowperson!

Thank you for your response!

Originally Posted by flowperson

But there are new perspectives around us in the nature of the unseen. We know that everything we devise to order the world of nature around us for our benefit and edification, such as building dwellings, growing crops, building roads, are always subject to the degredations imposed upon them by natural systems. Houses are damaged in windstorms, planted fields are reduced in their productivity thru the actions of weeds and insects, and water seeps into cracks in pavement and eventually splits it when the water freezes.

True, but this is order in nature, even if it seems to be disorder to humans. Wind has always had the potential to damage, insects and weeds serve their purpose in the cycle of life, and freezing water has always split and degraded stone.

I guess what I'm saying is that we are creating a world that is more comfortable and convenient, to an extent , for us to exist and live in, and we've been doing so for about 150 years or so.

I would guess far longer, since humans began building cities. Plus or minus, about 5 thousand years. Perhaps longer, if prehistoric humans used any form of "temporary" shelter, such as thatched huts, yurts or teepees, or something similar.

There is always a cost involved in doing such things, and the increased intensity of storm systems might be one of them because of our addiction to fossil fuels, and our reluctance to embrace sustainable alternatives

We impact the environment. It is what we do. So does every creature that builds a nest. Yes, there are those that suggest that our reliance on fossil fuel is contributing to changes in weather patterns. But weather patterns have changed without fossil fuels on multiple occasions, referenced by tree ring and ice core samples. I hardly think the former ice ages were brought about, or subsided, due to activity specific to humans (or any other creatures) in times past. Global warming is a great challenge to the status quo, the world as we know it now. But at one time huge forests of tropical plants existed in the arctic, evidenced by geologic finds in coal mines and such. The Earth in times past has been considerably colder, and considerably warmer, at various times in the geologic record.

The fact that many of us are more allergic to our surroundings than our grandparents were may point to some degree in evolutional adaptation in our species away from living and working in natural surroundings to living and working in articifial surroundings 24 hours a day.

Sure, but this is only one of many suspected contributing components. Our western diet is as much a culprit according to several sources I have read.

What I'm getting at here is that we are beginning to engineer the very fabric of the natural world now down to the nano and quantum levels, and nature is such that it will always have its way in the end.

How much is too much? I agree we seem to have taken ourselves to the boundary of playing creator, and I feel there will be natural repercussions if we cross that line. What of applied stem cell research?

I view this all as G-d having created an analog reality for us to exist in, and here we are converting everything to digital simulations to enhance our understandings of the realities around us, and to an extent to cheat and delay the incursions of nature upon our created realities. My concern is the reckoning that nature may inceasingly impose upon us whether we like it or not.

I'm not fully sure I follow, but I think I agree that we can only manipulate nature to a point. I think we may be flirting with the boundary, perhaps we've already crossed it, I don't know.

So again I say that, IMHO, western thought and philosophy strive to impose order upon the natural world around us to support our growth into the future, but the extent to which that ordering is being imposed upon nature is starting to turn around and bite us back in some real ways.

Yes, but it has from time immemorial. The Nile river was manipulated by humans. The Mississippi river was manipulated by humans. The Yellow river is almost finished being manipulated last I heard (3 Gorges Dam). Consider the history of the dust bowl in the US, and how agriculture has spoiled land. Then consider the salting of Carthage by the Romans.

Yet, for the bad side effects, all of these examples serve or will serve humanity. Often, much is lost. But there is also gain.

It is hard to justify not damming a river when your people are dying of thirst, and one has the technology and ability to solve the problem. It is hard not to justify clearing land for cultivation when your people are starving, and one has the technology and ability to solve the problem.

The alternative, as I see it, is for every single human living to return to subsistence living. Grow your own supper, or do without. Dig your own well, or do without. Sadly, there are far too many people in the world, and too many would simply have to do without. BTW, better hope you don't ever need a doctor, there would be none. They would be too busy growing their own food to worry about serving others.

Is this compulsion in us to reorder the natural world around us inborn or have we learned it culturally? I'm still looking for a definitive explanation/answer.

I know I sound like a broken record at this point, but look to the history of the Fertile Crescent, Mesopotamia, Sumer(ia). There is a large cultural component to what you describe in the modern sense. It is also inborn in a more primitive sense, the instinct to build a nest and raise a brood.

As far back as I've peered into the dim past, humans have obtained their sustenance from the natural systems of earth, but now we force it to give us what we want when we want it. In ancient times we gave thanks for what we gained and religions were based upon that practice. Today we pay our money, pick up our industrialized fast food, and not give a thought as to how that whopper ended up going down our throats.

Yes, I've pointed to this very thing in a number of previous threads. A friendly question; do you have the wherewithal to look your supper in the eyes and take its life yourself? Do you have the stomach and knowledge of how to skin it and dress it? Do you know how to prepare it for long term storage without electricity or refrigeration?

By the way, even the traditional views concerning gravity are being reworked as we exchange thoughts. A recent book by Lisa Randall, Warped Passages, gives us a peek at what gravity probably is really all about, way beyond Newtonian thinking, and more along the lines of quantum uncertanties

It would not surprise me, there is a great deal going on in quantum science that is fascinating. Even so, my example was of a typical human standing on a typical place on the earth.

Oh, and the oracle at Delphi sat over a crack in the earth on a three legged stool, inhaled the vapors coming from the crack, and fortold the future based upon the visions she related. Recent findings are that the vapor contains a chemical compound that acts as a mild hallucinogen upon the brain. You're right, mystics often did drugs to obtain their visions, in lots of differing ways.

Cool. I wasn't specifically relating to the use of hallucinogens. The prof that told us of the Psychomantium claimed (according to a book he read, I've forgotten which) the petitioners would fast for a few days in the upper chambers, probably in some form of prayer or worship. When they were ready, the priests (or whatever) would lead them into the lower chamber where a great reflecting pool was in the center of a great hall. Completely in the dark, except for a few candles or small torches (whatever very low level light source), the petitioner would gaze at the reflecting pool. In modern terms I believe it is called "scrying" (sp?), but this was on a grand scale. It is said that Nostradamus used a similar method on a much smaller scale.