On the meaning of Symbol

[Sunny C.]

Hi In Love!

I would say that the value of language, that is the agreed upon set of meanings, floats in a way similar to how the value of currencies float on the international market. It is constantly negotiated. And language, nowadays, is self-referential like money. That is, it's value isn't derived from it's ability to be swapped one for one for the thing it represents, but is a negotiated, artificial value. It's symbolic.

[17th Angel]

So then as I said... Dogs and other creatures DO USE symbols IF language is to be taken as a freaking symbol..... :/ *still waits for someone to say -written- language.*

[InLove]

Take acronyms, (take them please!) just for an example. Thirty years ago, if one wrote (or spoke!) the term "IRA", I immediately associated this with the "Irish Liberation Army". But now, it means a certain type of savings account. I have a screen name in another forum that is a name by which I have been called for years, but I recently learned that it is also an acronym for a well-known waste management company in another country! Yikes. And it isn't just acronyms, either. Twenty years ago where I live, if someone said "Starbuck", it meant a popular ice skater. Now it is synonymous with high-priced coffee.

Is this relative at all to the discussion?

InPeace,
InLove

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by InLove

Take acronyms, (take them please!) just for an example. Thirty years ago, if one wrote (or spoke!) the term "IRA", I immediately associated this with the "Irish Liberation Army". But now, it means a certain type of savings account. I have a screen name in another forum that is a name by which I have been called for years, but I recently learned that it is also an acronym for a well-known waste management company in another country! Yikes. And it isn't just acronyms, either. Twenty years ago where I live, if someone said "Starbuck", it meant a popular ice skater. Now it is synonymous with high-priced coffee.

Is this relative at all to the discussion?

InPeace,
InLove

There is only -one- IRA in my eyes.. That will always be there... You still speak of the IRA now it still means the same thing... You go to Ireland or England I am sure a savings account won't be the frist thing that comes to the tip of the tounge... But, I see where you are coming from....

[InLove]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

You go to Ireland or England I am sure a savings account won't be the frist thing that comes to the tip of the tounge... But, I see where you are coming from....

Exactly. I associate a word or phrase or symbol according to the time and place I come from or live in. So even though there may be a so-called "standard" in language, where did it originate, and by whose authority? And doesn't it continually fluctuate within that standard? A standard Webster's dictionary from even five years ago is not going to contain references to every term we use now--and that would only be in one native language!

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by InLove

Exactly. I associate a word or phrase or symbol according to the time and place I come from or live in. So even though there may be a so-called "standard" in language, where did it originate, and by whose authority? And doesn't it continually fluctuate within that standard? A standard Webster's dictionary from even five years ago is not going to contain references to every term we use now--and that would only be in one native language!

Just like with the cross? and christianity taking that as -their- symbol when it wasn't to begin with, wasn't but most people now if you say what group does the cross symbolise they would say christians....

[InLove]

And what about the swastika? Most people think of the Nazis when they see it. There are some people who are trying to salvage the earlier meaning, but of course, (and understandably) it offends many, because of the heartbreak associated with it.

And did you know that the mermaid on the Starbuck's logo can be associated with the story of Moby Dick or even prostitution in the Elizabethan era? I'm sure we could go on and on....

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by InLove

And what about the swastika? Most people think of the Nazis when they see it. There are some people who are trying to salvage the earlier meaning, but of course, (and understandably) it offends many, because of the heartbreak associated with it.

And did you know that the mermaid on the Starbuck's logo can be associated with the story of Moby Dick or even prostitution in the Elizabethan era? I'm sure we could go on and on....

Yup... Again, that is an excuse I used to use in school for my tattoo.... "it's a tatoo of love!" Of course back then, It clearly meant more than that to me.

So, symbols are they really the best way to "represent" something... Or is it the actions of the person best?

[InLove]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

So, symbols are they really the best way to "represent" something... Or is it the actions of the person best?

Good observation.

That said, I can also understand why people would strive to try and preserve the meaning of certain symbols within a particular tradition. It is somewhat understandable to me why many Christians are offended by the shortening of the name with a symbol that can mean so many different things. And I can understand why many Jewish people get upset when Christians or Muslims assign a meaning to words from the Torah which the Hebrew does not recognize. And on and on and on it goes.

[17th Angel]

As I said earlier in this thread... We are suckers for labels and tags... I am a so and so, you are not... Simple.. That is what it boils down to, I would say it is a form of smug pride.... EVERYONE that can get visual contact on you... Has to be able to identify and recongise that is what you are.... Like this with clothing too... I can go buy a suite from my local Tesco's (bows his head in awe.) and it will cost me 40 bucks? I could go to my usual tailor... Get an Armani custom fit suit.... Have a guess how much that costs me? Guess how much just the tie lol costs me? I look freaking great.... But, the 40 bucks suite from Tesco's (bows head in awe.) Also makes me look great.... ;/ But, the one I had made... That's got labels

[Sunny C.]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

So then as I said... Dogs and other creatures DO USE symbols IF language is to be taken as a freaking symbol..... :/ *still waits for someone to say -written- language.*

I don't have a problem with dogs using symbols. Language starts long before verbal and written communication. It's not just speaking and writing. And symbols are more than icons. How is body language communicated? In what form does the information exist while it's travelling from the sender, the actor, to the recipient? How is it packaged for transmission? What is the mechanism by which it is transmitted?