Omniscience and Free Will - Can both exist?

[Simon]

Usually this question is raised: If God knows I am going do something, how can I be free to do otherwise?

For me this is no problem. If God is outside of time, then to him all events occur at once - or, in our terms, have already happened. From my point of view, two possibilities were open to me. From god's point of view, one possibility got played out. From his perpective, past present and future are combined.

However, there is a more fundamental problem.

We can accept that God, being outside time, knows in full detail - with nothing left out - everything that happens. What about those things that don't happen? What about those things that would have happened if we'd chosen differently?

Free will requires that some experiences are had while others get avoided. Is it logically possible for any being to know in full detail - with nothing left out - experiences that were avoided by the excercise of free will?

I would make the following arguement. The reasoning has to be followed carefully.

1) Either something exists or it does not exist - but not both.

2) Either an experience has been had or it has not been had - but not both.

3) If an experience has been had by someone, it does exist.

4) If an experience has not been had by anyone, it does not exist.

5) For an experience to be known in every detail, it must be had by someone.

6) God can share all experiences that have been had by others.

7) God can have additional experiences that have never been had by others.

8) If any of God's experiences are absolutely indentical in every last detail to experiences that others could have had, then these experiences are in fact real.

9) If someone's possible experience is also a real experience, then it is an experience that belongs to that person - and must be experienced from that person's point view, even if shared by God.

10) Free will requires that some experiences are never had.

11) If there are some experiences that are never had, through the excercise of free will, then God does not have them either - for God can only have those experiences that are had.

12) If any being knows possible experiences with exactly the same vividity and detail as actual ones, then the distinction between the possible and the actual becomes so blurred as to be non-existent.

Conclusion 1: If there is no distinction between the possible and the actual, then everything that is possible happens and can be fully known. Enter omniscience, exit free will.

Conclusion 2: If there is a distinction between the possible and the actual, then certain experiences are had while others get avoided. The possible experiences cannot known by any being to the same degree as the actual ones. Enter free will, exit omniscience.


Summary: Free will puts a logical block on omnscience. Omniscience puts a logical block on free will. If there really is free will, then some possible experiences must be avoided and therefore can never be known. If there really is omnscience, then no possible experience is avoided and therefore can never be chosen.


Views are welcome.

[Serial Foreknowledge]

Originally Posted by Simon

Conclusion 2: If there is a distinction between the possible and the actual, then certain experiences are had while others get avoided. The possible experiences cannot known by any being to the same degree as the actual ones. Enter free will, exit omniscience.

I agree with this conclusion, except for the "exit omniscience" part. If a being knows all actual experiences, he is omniscient. He knows all there is to know. "Possible experiences" have no real meaning. "Possible experiences" enjoy no form of meaningful existance. It does not count against a being's omnicience if he knows nothing about "possible experiences".

[moseslmpg]

Firstly, you're proposing that you have totally free will, which is preposterous. When it comes down to it, you are a slave to many different things and only feel that you are free.

Secondly, this problem only arises if you think of time linearly. From an omniscient point of view, you have made every choice in the past, present, and future instantly. However the individual you, that you think you are, only experiences a linear path of choices.

Thirdly, even approached linearly omniscience does not affect free will, since it is total omniscience. It's not that you make a choice because the omniscient being knows, but because you make the choice, the omniscient being knows.

Fourthly, there would need to be some form of disclosure of future events from an omniscient being to even matter. If you don't know what the omniscient being knows, then whatever choice you make will be consistent with free will, because there is nothing to indicate otherwise.

Fifthly, nothing.

[InLove]

Originally Posted by moseslmpg

Fourthly, there would need to be some form of disclosure of future events from an omniscient being to even matter. If you don't know what the omniscient being knows, then whatever choice you make will be consistent with free will, because there is nothing to indicate otherwise.

Never quite thought of it this way. Makes sense to me, though.

Originally Posted by moseslmpg

Fifthly, nothing.

InPeace,
InLove

[Caimanson]

Originally Posted by moseslmpg

Fourthly, there would need to be some form of disclosure of future events from an omniscient being to even matter. If you don't know what the omniscient being knows, then whatever choice you make will be consistent with free will, because there is nothing to indicate otherwise.

I agree, the issue with free will is not restricted by omniscience, but by omnipotence.

[Snoopy]

Time is a very slippery concept! What is it? Is it real? Is it really what? Is it just the movement of fingers on a clock and the turning of the pages of a calendar?

"Each moment in our life has both an experiential content and a temporal duration, and we never experience one without the other.
We cannot be separated from time: we ourselves are time. To say that we ourselves are time is to say we are always changing. Yet we are also always being in the present moment. Both constant change and our continuous presence in "now" are the complementary realities of time."

- http://www.ordinarymind.com/dharma_beingtime.html

Snoopy.