Non-Duality

[cavalier]

When I first came across the concept of non-duality, it seemed that I was supposed to believe that "good" and "bad" did not really exist. I have a problem with this since it seems clear, to me at least, that "bad" really does exist.

I wonder now if I perhaps misunderstood the concept.

Should I instead be thinking that "bad" is bad, and "good" is good, but that it is unhelpful for us to attach values to those things? A bit like the lines from that Rudyard Kipling poem, "If"
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same

So, is it that good and bad don't exist? or that they do, but one is not better or worse than the other? or is there another explanation?

[17th Angel]

That first line in that poem... Doesn't strike me in such a fashion in reference to good and bad... It strikes me as bluffs.... It isn't saying there isn't a gooooooood or a baaaaaad.... It's saying... Certain levels are bs.... :| That's what I get anyway....

[wil]

I'm sure someone can explain it better than I.

In my understanding everything just is.

Dang I need that old poem about the prince who fell off his horse!

What we perceive to be bad in one moment we perceive to be good in the next. If it were truly bad we would not perceive it to be bad in the first place.

A weak example.

I was one of 200 carpeneters working on the MGM Grand in Reno...the first layoffs came...50 guys...I wasn't one of them, that's good. Next layoff, 75 guys, I wasn't one of them, that's good. Next layoff, 50 guys, I wasn't one of them, that's good. Next layoff they get rid of all but their regulars...I'm gone. I worked another 2 months longer than the first layoffs...however 70% of them had found work, the rest were sittin on the bench at the hall. The biggest job in town was gone and everyone else got the available jobs.... If I'd been laid off in the first or second go...I'd have had a job in a week.

So there was nothing, so in 1981 I left my $15.15 per hour cushy commercial inside union job and went to work as a $6 an hour laborer for a home builder...that's bad. Working with him gave me the training on all phases of construction and when he laid me off a year and a half later...bad? I was able to go to work as foreman...then superintendent...then project manager....

Good, bad or just is?

I lost my wife's parent's to cigarettes, and my dad, my sister to diabetes, my wife left me, lost my house to foreclosure.....

Good, bad or just is?

Non-duality is incredibly freeing.

[wil]

IF

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise: If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

--Rudyard Kipling

[wil]

Found it...

In ancient times there was an old man in China called Po Sou. He was fortunate to own a strong horse. Although he depended on the horse for his livelihood by renting it out to people and using it himself, it disappeared somewhere or other. Those who heard about his loss felt it was terribly unfortunate. But when they consoled the old man, he said, "Why get so excited? It may or may not be a good thing." People found this attitude strange, but the horse came home, bringing along another horse of equal quality. Since this was a very fortunate development, the old man's friends and even casual acquaintances rejoiced.
Again, the old man said, "Why get excited? It may or may not be a good thing." Shortly after this, the old man's son mounted the horse, fell off, and broke his arm. Hearing about this, people came to pay their condolences, but again the old man said, "Why get excited? It may or may not be a good thing."
People again found this strange. A year later there was a great war throughout the country. When soldiers were drafted for this conflict, men were also called up from the old man's area. All went to war, and all died. Because the old man's son had only one good arm, he escaped this fate. Thus, although he had only one arm, he had his life.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by wil

IF

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise: If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

--Rudyard Kipling

That poem is freaking sweet..... I could pick at it... But, we shall leave that... That is a very good poem.

Originally Posted by wil

Found it...

In ancient times there was an old man in China called Po Sou. He was fortunate to own a strong horse. Although he depended on the horse for his livelihood by renting it out to people and using it himself, it disappeared somewhere or other. Those who heard about his loss felt it was terribly unfortunate. But when they consoled the old man, he said, "Why get so excited? It may or may not be a good thing." People found this attitude strange, but the horse came home, bringing along another horse of equal quality. Since this was a very fortunate development, the old man's friends and even casual acquaintances rejoiced.
Again, the old man said, "Why get excited? It may or may not be a good thing." Shortly after this, the old man's son mounted the horse, fell off, and broke his arm. Hearing about this, people came to pay their condolences, but again the old man said, "Why get excited? It may or may not be a good thing."
People again found this strange. A year later there was a great war throughout the country. When soldiers were drafted for this conflict, men were also called up from the old man's area. All went to war, and all died. Because the old man's son had only one good arm, he escaped this fate. Thus, although he had only one arm, he had his life.

Do you get excitied in the fact that he lost his arm but gained his life? Because that may not be a good or bad thing..... Three years down the line he lost his private bits messing around with a farmers daughter...... :| IF he had gone to war at least he would have died with dignity and pride... Now he is missing a bit more than just an arm....

[Neemai]

Originally Posted by wil

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

--Rudyard Kipling

Classic poem Wil! Brilliant!
I love the last two lines especially - genius!

In addition, and along similar lines (from the Gita):

O son of Kunti, the nonpermanent appearance of happiness and distress, and their disappearance in due course, are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons. They arise from sense perception, O scion of Bharata, and one must learn to tolerate them without being disturbed. (Bhagavad-Gita 2.14, Krishna speaking to Arjuna)


... Neemai

[wil]

Namaste Cav,

I should really look at which board things are in prior to running off at the fingers....my answers are my perspective and am not knowledgeable to the Buddhist thinking in this regard.


my apologies...

Originally Posted by ... Neemai

Classic poem Wil! Brilliant!

Now I just posted it, Rudyard wrote it and Cavalier referenced it.

Nice Gita quote you provided...and yeah imo the Christian version of same is Seek ye first the kingdom of Heaven...

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Cav,

I should really look at which board things are in prior to running off at the fingers....my answers are my perspective and am not knowledgeable to the Buddhist thinking in this regard.


my apologies...

No worries
Though I do hope I get some more answers to my original question

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by cavalier

When I first came across the concept of non-duality, it seemed that I was supposed to believe that "good" and "bad" did not really exist. I have a problem with this since it seems clear, to me at least, that "bad" really does exist.

I wonder now if I perhaps misunderstood the concept.

Should I instead be thinking that "bad" is bad, and "good" is good, but that it is unhelpful for us to attach values to those things? A bit like the lines from that Rudyard Kipling poem, "If"
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same

So, is it that good and bad don't exist? or that they do, but one is not better or worse than the other? or is there another explanation?

By pursuing this line of reasoning in this manner, you are creating a duality between dualism and non-dualism, which could lead to a dangerous state of confusion. Instead of confusing good and evil, focus in on the interconnectedness of all things, and looking at things from a variety of perspectives. Think about transforming 'bad' into 'good,' while also being mindful of how 'good' could become corrupted into 'bad.' This might lead towards skillfulness, rather than confusion.

[Snoopy]

Hey, SG, I kind of thought you would have posted the 3rd Patriarch’s gatha! Obliged as I am to your pointing me to the version that you did, I (with my discriminating mind) prefer this translation:


“The Great Way is not difficult

for those who have no preferences.

When love and hate are both absent

everything becomes clear and undisguised.

Make the smallest distinction, however,

and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.


If you wish to see the truth

then hold no opinions for or against anything.

To set up what you like against what you dislike

is the disease of the mind.

When the deep meaning of things is not understood,

the mind’s essential peace is disturbed to no avail.


The Way is perfect like vast space

where nothing is lacking and nothing in excess.

Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject

that we do not see the true nature of things.


Live neither in the entanglements of outer things,

nor in inner feelings of emptiness.

Be serene in the oneness of things and such

erroneous views will disappear by themselves.


When you try to stop activity by passivity

your very effort fills you with activity.

As long as you remain in one extreme or the other

you will never know Oneness.


Those who do not live in the single Way

fail in both activity and passivity,

assertion and denial.

To deny the reality of things

is to miss their reality;

To assert the emptiness of things

is to miss their reality.


The more you talk and think about it,

the further astray you wander from the truth.

Stop talking and thinking,

and there is nothing you will not be able to know.


To return to the root is to find meaning,

but to pursue appearances is to miss the source.

At the moment of inner enlightenment

there is a going beyond appearance and emptiness.

The changes that appear to occur in the empty world

we call real only because of our ignorance.


Do not search for the truth;

only cease to cherish opinions.

do not remain in the dualistic state.

Avoid such pursuits carefully.

If there is even a trace of this and that,

of right and wrong,

the mind-essence will be lost in confusion.


Although all dualities come from the One,

do not be attached even to this One.

When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way,

nothing in the world can offend.

And when a thing can no longer offend,

it ceases to exist in the old way.


When no discriminating thoughts arise,

the old mind ceases to exist.

When thought objects vanish,

the thinking-subject vanishes:

As when the mind vanishes, objects vanish.


Things are objects because of the subject (mind):

the mind (subject) is such because of things (object).

Understand the relativity of these two

and the basic reality: the unity of emptiness.

In this Emptiness the two are indistinguishable

and each contains in itself the whole world.

If you do not discriminate between coarse and fine

you will not be tempted to prejudice and opinion.


To live in the Great Way is neither easy nor difficult.

But those with limited views are fearful and irresolute:

the faster they hurry, the slower they go.

And clinging (attachment) cannot be limited:

Even to be attached to the idea of enlightenment

is to go astray.

Just let things be in their own way

and there will be neither coming not going.

Obey the nature of things (your own nature)

and you will walk freely and undisturbed.


When the thought is in bondage the truth is hidden

for everything is murky and unclear.

And the burdensome practice of judging

brings annoyance and weariness.

What benefit can be derived

from distinctions and separations?


If you wish to move in the One Way

do not dislike even the world of senses and ideas.

Indeed, to accept them fully

is identical with enlightenment.


The wise man strives to no goals

but the foolish man fetters himself.


There is one Dharma, not many.

Distinctions arise

from the clinging needs of the ignorant.

To seek Mind with the (discriminating) mind

is the greatest of all mistakes.


Rest and unrest derive from illusion;

with enlightenment

there is no liking and disliking.

All dualities come from ignorant inference.

They are like dreams or flowers in air -

foolish to try to grasp them.

Gain and loss, right and wrong,

such thoughts must

finally be abolished at once.


If the eye never sleeps,

all dreams will naturally cease.

If the mind makes no discriminations,

the ten thousand things are as they are,

of single essence.

To understand the mystery of this One-essence

is to be released from all entanglements.

When all things are seen equally

the timeless Self-essence is reached,

No comparisons or analogies are possible

in this causeless, relationless state.

Consider movement stationary

and the stationary in motion,

both movement and rest disappear.

When such dualities cease to exist

Oneness itself cannot exist.

To this ultimate finality

no law or description applies.


For the unified mind in accord with the way

all self-centered striving ceases.

Doubts and irresolutions vanish

and life in true faith is possible.

With a single stroke we are freed from bondage:

Nothing clings to us and we hold to nothing.


All is empty, clear, self-illuminating,

with no exertion of the mind’s power.

Here thought, feeling,

knowledge and imagination are of no value.


In this world of suchness

there is neither self nor other-than-self.

To come directly into harmony with this reality

just say when doubt rises "not two".

In this "not two" nothing is separate,

nothing is excluded.


No matter when or where,

enlightenment means entering this truth.

And this truth is beyond extension

or diminution in time and space:

In it a single thought is ten thousand years.


Emptiness here, emptiness there,

but the infinite universe

stands always before your eyes.

Infinitely large and infinitely small;

no difference, for definitions have vanished

and no boundaries are seen.


So too with Being and non-Being.

Don’t waste time in doubts and arguments

That have nothing to do with this.


One thing, all things,

move among and intermingle without distinction.

To live in this realization

is to be without anxiety about non-perfection.

To live in this faith is the road to non-duality,

because the non-dual is one with the trusting mind.


Words!

The Way is beyond language,

for in it there is

no yesterday

no tomorrow

no today.”

Verses on the Faith Mind
Hsin Hsin Ming by Seng-T'san
The Third Patriarch of Zen

Translated from the Chinese by Richard B. Clarke

s.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

By pursuing this line of reasoning in this manner, you are creating a duality between dualism and non-dualism, which could lead to a dangerous state of confusion. Instead of confusing good and evil, focus in on the interconnectedness of all things, and looking at things from a variety of perspectives. Think about transforming 'bad' into 'good,' while also being mindful of how 'good' could become corrupted into 'bad.' This might lead towards skillfulness, rather than confusion.

But a desires to transform bad into good, and to avoid the corruption of good into bad, attach values to good and bad. Good is to be desired, worked for, and pursued, bad is to fought against and avoided. Surely that is duality indeed.

[cavalier]

Thanks snoopy

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by cavalier

But a desires to transform bad into good, and to avoid the corruption of good into bad, attach values to good and bad. Good is to be desired, worked for, and pursued, bad is to fought against and avoided. Surely that is duality indeed.

Have you ever heard the term, "not one, not two?"
Doesn't knowing that 'bad' can be transformed into 'good,' and that 'good' can be corrupted into 'bad' remove some of the value attached to 'good' and 'bad?' Is being moved by compassion to transform 'bad' into 'good' a duality? Is being mindful that a 'good' situation can degrade into a 'bad' situation a duality?
Remember the unity in dualities, but don't cling to it, because nothing is really certain. 'Emptiness' is actually full of possibilities. What IS is transient, but real for a space. What IS NOT (the myriad of possibilities) is always there, but do not always manifest, yet contain the seeds of what will be.
{Are you confused as I am yet?}

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Do you get excitied in the fact that he lost his arm but gained his life? Because that may not be a good or bad thing..... Three years down the line he lost his private bits messing around with a farmers daughter...... :| IF he had gone to war at least he would have died with dignity and pride... Now he is missing a bit more than just an arm....

What you think Wil? That story can just go on and on.... I find that with all those Eastern "stories" and morales lol....